Teams & Riders Froome Talk Only

[thehog]

And to prove my point there is an article on the very subject two days ago on Training Peaks:

https://www.trainingpeaks.com/blog/anatomy-of-a-team-time-trial/

In an individual Time Trial (TT) riders tend to target a steady pace at or around their Functional Threshold Power. But in a TTT, each rider will take turns pulling the group at significantly higher power for a short period of time.The goal is to keep the team’s speed consistent, but higher than any individual rider could ride alone.

Notably, at these speeds, the front rider will be pushing very high raw power, which means that their watts/kg will have a minimized impact. Disregarding aerodynamic differences for a second, on a flattish course, a smaller climber and large power TT rider have to push roughly the same power to maintain that speed when riding out front.

ie stronger than your weakest rider

Errr...No.

You haven't grasped what the article is saying. You are comparing the weakest rider in a TTT to same rider doing ITT.

Sam is talking about weakest rider in TTT compared to TTT group as a whole.

Really basic mistake on your part.

No, you didn’t bother to read the article either. Nor did Sam. His original statement was “a TTT can only be ridden at the speed of your 4th slowest rider regardless of who’s on the front”.

Which is plain wrong.

 

[samhocking]

I corrected that Hog to 5th rider, come on. Anyone that's ridden TTT or studied it a little will know what I mean. Team Sky could only ride at the speed their slowest riders. They finished with 5 so at the end they finished at a speed set off the 5th fastest rider, I thought they finished off their 4th fastest rider that's all. By having to keep up (in the wheels more) he is slowing the stronger riders down, therefore the team as a whole is riding at the pace dictated by the next slowest rider.

 

[ruamruam]

Re:

I corrected that Hog to 5th rider, come on. Anyone that's ridden TTT or studied it a little will know what I mean. Team Sky could only ride at the speed their slowest riders. They finished with 5 so at the end they finished at a speed set off the 5th fastest rider. By having to keep up (in the wheels more) he is slowing the stronger riders down, therefore the team as a whole is riding at the pace dictated by the slowest riders.

You really don't understand TTTs.

 

[gillan1969]

the question is, is it Hog or Sam that has the resources to ensure the services of Mike Morgan to sort out this little local difficulty?

 

[samhocking]

This must be a language thing lol. If I said to any cyclist in my club at the local TTT, we'll only rider as fast as the slowest rider, they would know that means, the slowest rider is either not going to keep up and/or not contribute so the stronger riders will ride slower due to more/longer turns and therefore less recovery between turns. Call it what you want. For nearly 40 years in UK Timtrialling it's called 'you can only ride as fast as your slowest rider', some people use strongest/weakest. Whatever, it's true, it's how it works, there's always a slowest rider and so if he needs to finish with you, your average speed will be set off that slower rider and your time will be slower than if he was equally as fast as the others.

 

[ruamruam]

Re:

This must be a language thing lol. If I said to any cyclist in my club at the local TTT, we'll only rider as fast as the slowest rider, they would know that means, the slowest rider is either not going to keep up and/or not contribute so the stronger riders will ride slower due to more/longer turns and therefore less recovery between turns. Call it what you want. For nearly 40 years in UK Timtrialling it's called 'you can only ride as fast as your slowest rider', some people use strongest/weakest. Whatever, it's true, it's how it works, there's always a slowest rider and so if he needs to finish with you, your average speed will be set off that slower rider and your time will be slower than if he was equally as fast as the others.

You really don't understand TTTs

 

[samhocking]

Explain it to me then. You know a faster way to ride a TTT with slower riders without sacrificing recovery and work load/rate of stronger riders collectively along the course, be my guest!

 

[thehog]

Re:

Explain it to me then. You know a faster way to ride a TTT with slower riders without sacrificing recovery and work load/rate of stronger riders collectively along the course, be my guest!

I honestly cannot believe you persisted with being so completely wrong and still going. Just like your claim that Lappartient won the election by illegal means. You simply just make up stories and when called out just dig a deeper hole for yourself.

Now on a lighter note VeloNews did a wonderful analysis on the TTT stage showing how different setus, sequence of riders and their power data. Naturally it’s contrary to Sam’s absurd claims but that’s the beside the point as the data is very interesting.

 

[thehog]

Link to the article:

https://www.velonews.com/2018/07/tour-de-france/tour-power-report-stage-3-ttt-analysis_472048?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

 

[Koronin]

How about this. Quickstep's TTT. Bob Jungels is most definitely their strongest time trialist. He could NOT ride at his fastest time trialing speed because he'd blow up the team and they wouldn't have the needed 4 riders at the finish. What he SHOULD have been doing was taking longer pulls on the front giving the other guys more time to recover between their pulls (similar to what Cancellara used to do). They didn't need to worry about a GC guy thus just needed their best 4 time trialists at the finish. BMC finished with 5 because they have 5 very good TTTers and understood how to property use their other 3 in the best possible way. Plus those two teams along with Sky definitely practice TTTs. On the other hand you've got Movistar for who some of their weakest time trialists are two of their GC guys. They can't ride faster than Quintana and Landa because they need them in that final 4 group which is why they finished with 5 as Valverde, Amador, and Soler are stronger time trialists than Quintana and Landa. They also don't practice team time trials and it shows. Since time is taken on the 4th rider at the line you can't ride faster in a TTT than the slowest of your top 4 riders, OR in some cases you can't ride a TTT faster than your GC rider (or in Movistar's case two of your GC riders).

 

[brownbobby]

Re: Re:

Explain it to me then. You know a faster way to ride a TTT with slower riders without sacrificing recovery and work load/rate of stronger riders collectively along the course, be my guest!

I honestly cannot believe you persisted with being so completely wrong and still going. Just like your claim that Lappartient won the election by illegal means. You simply just make up stories and when called out just dig a deeper hole for yourself.

Now on a lighter note VeloNews did a wonderful analysis on the TTT stage showing how different setus, sequence of riders and their power data. Naturally it’s contrary to Sam’s absurd claims but that’s the beside the point as the data is very interesting.

Sam is correct, there's more than one way to ride a TTT.....I have to say the way some people insist on mobbing up to rip to pieces everything he posts, with or without justification, is nothing more than playground bullying.

Good on you Sam for standing up to it so often

 

[yaco]

Have to agree with Brown Bobby. TTT's are about catering to your weakest rider.

 

[TheSpud]

Re: Re:

Explain it to me then. You know a faster way to ride a TTT with slower riders without sacrificing recovery and work load/rate of stronger riders collectively along the course, be my guest!

I honestly cannot believe you persisted with being so completely wrong and still going. Just like your claim that Lappartient won the election by illegal means. You simply just make up stories and when called out just dig a deeper hole for yourself.

Now on a lighter note VeloNews did a wonderful analysis on the TTT stage showing how different setus, sequence of riders and their power data. Naturally it’s contrary to Sam’s absurd claims but that’s the beside the point as the data is very interesting.

Sam is correct, there's more than one way to ride a TTT.....I have to say the way some people insist on mobbing up to rip to pieces everything he posts, with or without justification, is nothing more than playground bullying.

Good on you Sam for standing up to it so often

Playground bullying in The Clinic? I'm shocked, shocked I tell ya ...

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re:

I corrected that Hog to 5th rider, come on. Anyone that's ridden TTT or studied it a little will know what I mean. Team Sky could only ride at the speed their slowest riders. They finished with 5 so at the end they finished at a speed set off the 5th fastest rider, I thought they finished off their 4th fastest rider that's all. By having to keep up (in the wheels more) he is slowing the stronger riders down, therefore the team as a whole is riding at the pace dictated by the next slowest rider.

Anyone can follow in the wheels regardless of the speed. The shorter and lesser turns of the worst rider will only marginally lower the final average speed. So no, the speed is not determined by the slowest rider. This is only true on uphill sections where it is easy to ride someone out of your wheel.
Take a Michelton-Scott team with Chaves. Chaves is only following in the wheels. Yes, that will slow down the team as they have 1 rider less doing turns so more work load on the others so they go slower, but they don't have to adjust their speed so Chaves can follow.

 

[macbindle]

Tell that to Quickstep :lol:

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re:

Tell that to Quickstep :lol:

It is well known that when you've done a turn and have to get back on the last wheel, or on a downhill (big speed and bigger gaps) or uphill (less draft), it's easy to lose the wheel. On a flat road, when you are already on someone's wheel, you won't just lose it because they up the speed a couple kph. That is the idea behind drafting.

 

[samhocking]

Link to the article:

https://www.velonews.com/2018/07/tour-de-france/tour-power-report-stage-3-ttt-analysis_472048?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

They still rode the overall distance set off their slowest riders Hog. Obviously you can sacrifice weak riders or even stronger riders tactically in various ways to benefit average speed, but really only in the closing km. They can miss turns so recover more, or do shorter turns so they don't blow up, but, no matter what way a TTT squad ride a course, their average speed is set off the slowest rider. That will often be a gradual process of fatigue determining the next slowest rider either by design or by ability. Typically the points where the line begin to fragment from slower riders are on the false flats and an hills and rises where power of a natural TT rider even though he's on the front into the wind can still detach the weaker riders in his slipstream. We see that happen all the time even at WT level. If that rider being separated is needed such as GC, or it's too early strategically to let him go and not contribute to the average speed, you have to slow down to that dropped riders speed, there's no other way, you ride off that rider being your slowest rider. I've been the weaker rider on an off day in National Club TTTs and it cost us time dearly against clubs with the 3 more equally matched riders. In an Individual TT our strongest guys would match the others riders no problem. Add the slower rider like me to them in a TTT on an off day and the same course is ridden off and average speed dictated by me, not them.

 

[TourOfSardinia]

Re:

Have to agree with Brown Bobby. TTT's are about catering to your weakest rider.

What has this got to do with the CLINIC

M O D S ! ! !
BLATANT OBFUSCATION
has been going on in the clinic for the last two days

update: it continues below with (anyone else wanna join the list?)

bobbybrown
Singer01

 

[Singer01]

Re: Re:

Have to agree with Brown Bobby. TTT's are about catering to your weakest rider.

What has this got to do with the CLINIC

M O D S ! ! !
BLATANT OBFUSCATION
has been going on in the clinic for the last two days

Why not call out the hog on it? He's been the one dragging it out talking shite.

 

[brownbobby]

Re: Re:

Have to agree with Brown Bobby. TTT's are about catering to your weakest rider.

What has this got to do with the CLINIC

M O D S ! ! !
BLATANT OBFUSCATION
has been going on in the clinic for the last two days

Well it all started with some BS about Froome 'single handedly dragging' the rest of his team along in the TTT.

A sure sign that he was 'glowing'. Apparently. Even though it never happened.

Better to just let it sit without challenge...another piece of Clinic BS left to become fact. That's how things should be, eh

 

[samhocking]

And primarily why i'm arguing the slowest riders dictate a squads average speed far more than the fastest. It doesn't matter how fast and glowing Froome is, or Thomas feeling he didn't get it all out because of how his turns ended falling on easy parts of the course, the average speed of the team was proportional to the collective combined average power which is always ridden off the understanding the slowest rider in worst case, the 4th fastest rider, because time is taken off 4th fastest. Finishing with 5 riders is the desired result as always a risk of puncture or mechanical if down to 4 too far before the line which is a major time penalty. Worst case for all teams is they will ride to the strength of their 4th fastest rider within the course because they must have him finish in the group as a 4th man, therefore he dictates how fast the faster riders can go.
I'm out, delete the thread mods, totally waste of everyone time anyway.

 

[samhocking]

Re: Re:

Tell that to Quickstep :lol:

It is well known that when you've done a turn and have to get back on the last wheel, or on a downhill (big speed and bigger gaps) or uphill (less draft), it's easy to lose the wheel. On a flat road, when you are already on someone's wheel, you won't just lose it because they up the speed a couple kph. That is the idea behind drafting.

Come on, you you've watched TTT where riders can't hold the wheel and the group have to wait for them on flats surely? When you are dropped off the line in a TTT, you are in the red, you cannot maintain the speed, even i nthe slipstream. A top 80kg TT rider will drop their 60kg GC climber or 70kg all-rounder every time if told to ride at their personal threshold. Fastest way to ride is in rotation, often in faster, slower, faster, slower orders. The more you can divide that workload and recover optimally between the squad the faster you should go. This is the whole premise of 1 TT specialist cannot ride faster than a group of 10 domestiques working in rotation all things being equal.

End of the day a well-drilled team can outstrip even the best TT specialist because each rider alternates faster efforts riding on the front at speeds well above what is sustainable by the best TT specialist on his own be that Froome or Tony Martin only doing the work.

 

[thehog]

Re: Re:

Tell that to Quickstep :lol:

It is well known that when you've done a turn and have to get back on the last wheel, or on a downhill (big speed and bigger gaps) or uphill (less draft), it's easy to lose the wheel. On a flat road, when you are already on someone's wheel, you won't just lose it because they up the speed a couple kph. That is the idea behind drafting.

Lesson one, drafting. That’s what we’ve got to in the Clnic. To help Sam understand for his special rule in a TTT that it can only be ridden as fast as your slowest fourth rider.

Apparently the other four riders don’t make a difference

 

[gillan1969]

And primarily why i'm arguing the slowest riders dictate a squads average speed far more than the fastest. It doesn't matter how fast and glowing Froome is, or Thomas feeling he didn't get it all out because of how his turns ended falling on easy parts of the course, the average speed of the team was proportional to the collective combined average power which is always ridden off the understanding the slowest rider in worst case, the 4th fastest rider, because time is taken off 4th fastest. Finishing with 5 riders is the desired result as always a risk of puncture or mechanical if down to 4 too far before the line which is a major time penalty. Worst case for all teams is they will ride to the strength of their 4th fastest rider within the course because they must have him finish in the group as a 4th man, therefore he dictates how fast the faster riders can go.
I'm out, delete the thread mods, thttp://forum.cyclingnews.com/images/icons/misc/radioactive.gifotally waste of everyone time anyway.

agree its jack all to do with the thread but this is not the case the bolded above...the fastest dictate more than the slowest...the slowest (in the TdF the 4th rider) is nor...eh...slow. As the speed increases so does the power output disproportionately...and by definition the proportion of power saved by drafting... so whilst the strength of your 4th man is important....not as important as how fast your fast men can go....of course its far more complicated than this discussion purports it to be, that being who is more important your fast man or your slow man e.g. some over enthusiastic wee guy hammering it might drop a strong flat man on a climb...

 

[thehog]

Re: Re:

He said he had more in the tank because he had lots of turns on downhill sections. Besides a TT gets ridden at the speed of your 4th slowest rider anyway, regardless of who's on the front.

No. The final time is taken from the fourth rider, the TTT is not ridden at the “speed” of your fourth slowest rider because you start with 8 all taking turns.

Poor analysis again.

As Sam probably deleted his original post (funny that), for those supporting his theories, this is what he stated in bold above