Teams & Riders Froome Talk Only

[samhocking]

And primarily why i'm arguing the slowest riders dictate a squads average speed far more than the fastest. It doesn't matter how fast and glowing Froome is, or Thomas feeling he didn't get it all out because of how his turns ended falling on easy parts of the course, the average speed of the team was proportional to the collective combined average power which is always ridden off the understanding the slowest rider in worst case, the 4th fastest rider, because time is taken off 4th fastest. Finishing with 5 riders is the desired result as always a risk of puncture or mechanical if down to 4 too far before the line which is a major time penalty. Worst case for all teams is they will ride to the strength of their 4th fastest rider within the course because they must have him finish in the group as a 4th man, therefore he dictates how fast the faster riders can go.
I'm out, delete the thread mods, totally waste of everyone time anyway.

 

[samhocking]

Re: Re:

Tell that to Quickstep :lol:

It is well known that when you've done a turn and have to get back on the last wheel, or on a downhill (big speed and bigger gaps) or uphill (less draft), it's easy to lose the wheel. On a flat road, when you are already on someone's wheel, you won't just lose it because they up the speed a couple kph. That is the idea behind drafting.

Come on, you you've watched TTT where riders can't hold the wheel and the group have to wait for them on flats surely? When you are dropped off the line in a TTT, you are in the red, you cannot maintain the speed, even i nthe slipstream. A top 80kg TT rider will drop their 60kg GC climber or 70kg all-rounder every time if told to ride at their personal threshold. Fastest way to ride is in rotation, often in faster, slower, faster, slower orders. The more you can divide that workload and recover optimally between the squad the faster you should go. This is the whole premise of 1 TT specialist cannot ride faster than a group of 10 domestiques working in rotation all things being equal.

End of the day a well-drilled team can outstrip even the best TT specialist because each rider alternates faster efforts riding on the front at speeds well above what is sustainable by the best TT specialist on his own be that Froome or Tony Martin only doing the work.

 

[thehog]

Re: Re:

Tell that to Quickstep :lol:

It is well known that when you've done a turn and have to get back on the last wheel, or on a downhill (big speed and bigger gaps) or uphill (less draft), it's easy to lose the wheel. On a flat road, when you are already on someone's wheel, you won't just lose it because they up the speed a couple kph. That is the idea behind drafting.

Lesson one, drafting. That’s what we’ve got to in the Clnic. To help Sam understand for his special rule in a TTT that it can only be ridden as fast as your slowest fourth rider.

Apparently the other four riders don’t make a difference

 

[gillan1969]

And primarily why i'm arguing the slowest riders dictate a squads average speed far more than the fastest. It doesn't matter how fast and glowing Froome is, or Thomas feeling he didn't get it all out because of how his turns ended falling on easy parts of the course, the average speed of the team was proportional to the collective combined average power which is always ridden off the understanding the slowest rider in worst case, the 4th fastest rider, because time is taken off 4th fastest. Finishing with 5 riders is the desired result as always a risk of puncture or mechanical if down to 4 too far before the line which is a major time penalty. Worst case for all teams is they will ride to the strength of their 4th fastest rider within the course because they must have him finish in the group as a 4th man, therefore he dictates how fast the faster riders can go.
I'm out, delete the thread mods, thttp://forum.cyclingnews.com/images/icons/misc/radioactive.gifotally waste of everyone time anyway.

agree its jack all to do with the thread but this is not the case the bolded above...the fastest dictate more than the slowest...the slowest (in the TdF the 4th rider) is nor...eh...slow. As the speed increases so does the power output disproportionately...and by definition the proportion of power saved by drafting... so whilst the strength of your 4th man is important....not as important as how fast your fast men can go....of course its far more complicated than this discussion purports it to be, that being who is more important your fast man or your slow man e.g. some over enthusiastic wee guy hammering it might drop a strong flat man on a climb...

 

[thehog]

Re: Re:

He said he had more in the tank because he had lots of turns on downhill sections. Besides a TT gets ridden at the speed of your 4th slowest rider anyway, regardless of who's on the front.

No. The final time is taken from the fourth rider, the TTT is not ridden at the “speed” of your fourth slowest rider because you start with 8 all taking turns.

Poor analysis again.

As Sam probably deleted his original post (funny that), for those supporting his theories, this is what he stated in bold above

 

[simoni]

Re: Re:

I corrected that Hog to 5th rider, come on. Anyone that's ridden TTT or studied it a little will know what I mean. Team Sky could only ride at the speed their slowest riders. They finished with 5 so at the end they finished at a speed set off the 5th fastest rider, I thought they finished off their 4th fastest rider that's all. By having to keep up (in the wheels more) he is slowing the stronger riders down, therefore the team as a whole is riding at the pace dictated by the next slowest rider.

Anyone can follow in the wheels regardless of the speed. The shorter and lesser turns of the worst rider will only marginally lower the final average speed. So no, the speed is not determined by the slowest rider. This is only true on uphill sections where it is easy to ride someone out of your wheel.
Take a Michelton-Scott team with Chaves. Chaves is only following in the wheels. Yes, that will slow down the team as they have 1 rider less doing turns so more work load on the others so they go slower, but they don't have to adjust their speed so Chaves can follow.

So we've a simultaneously got a situation where the slowest rider is marginally lowering the average speed yet the team is not going slower?!

And then the team don't adjust their speed yet are going slower?!

I'd suggest a re-read of what you've written!

 

[thehog]

Re: Re:

I corrected that Hog to 5th rider, come on. Anyone that's ridden TTT or studied it a little will know what I mean. Team Sky could only ride at the speed their slowest riders. They finished with 5 so at the end they finished at a speed set off the 5th fastest rider, I thought they finished off their 4th fastest rider that's all. By having to keep up (in the wheels more) he is slowing the stronger riders down, therefore the team as a whole is riding at the pace dictated by the next slowest rider.

Anyone can follow in the wheels regardless of the speed. The shorter and lesser turns of the worst rider will only marginally lower the final average speed. So no, the speed is not determined by the slowest rider. This is only true on uphill sections where it is easy to ride someone out of your wheel.
Take a Michelton-Scott team with Chaves. Chaves is only following in the wheels. Yes, that will slow down the team as they have 1 rider less doing turns so more work load on the others so they go slower, but they don't have to adjust their speed so Chaves can follow.

So we've a simultaneously got a situation where the slowest rider is marginally lowering the average speed yet the team is not going slower?!

And then the team don't adjust their speed yet are going slower?!

I'd suggest a re-read of what you've written!

The slowest rider by talent is still doing less watts than the other seven taking less turns and spending less time on the front, thus is not slowing the team down by his exact talent level. Drag coefficient will come into play depending on size of rider and wind direction.

Sam told us there were hundreds of articles on google to support his claim, there are none. With good reason. It’s simple mathematics in how you set up your TTT team and sequence.

 

[wrinklyvet]

Re: Re:

I corrected that Hog to 5th rider, come on. Anyone that's ridden TTT or studied it a little will know what I mean. Team Sky could only ride at the speed their slowest riders. They finished with 5 so at the end they finished at a speed set off the 5th fastest rider, I thought they finished off their 4th fastest rider that's all. By having to keep up (in the wheels more) he is slowing the stronger riders down, therefore the team as a whole is riding at the pace dictated by the next slowest rider.

Anyone can follow in the wheels regardless of the speed. The shorter and lesser turns of the worst rider will only marginally lower the final average speed. So no, the speed is not determined by the slowest rider. This is only true on uphill sections where it is easy to ride someone out of your wheel.
Take a Michelton-Scott team with Chaves. Chaves is only following in the wheels. Yes, that will slow down the team as they have 1 rider less doing turns so more work load on the others so they go slower, but they don't have to adjust their speed so Chaves can follow.

So we've a simultaneously got a situation where the slowest rider is marginally lowering the average speed yet the team is not going slower?!

And then the team don't adjust their speed yet are going slower?!

I'd suggest a re-read of what you've written!

The slowest rider by talent is still doing less watts than the other seven taking less turns and spending less time on the front, thus is not slowing the team down by his exact talent level. Drag coefficient will come into play depending on size of rider and wind direction.

Sam told us there were hundreds of articles on google to support his claim, there are none. With good reason. It’s simple mathematics in how you set up your TTT team and sequence.

I am not sure if I should intrude on all this wrangling, but La Florecita and you put it somewhat better than Sam. Some of what he says is right too, but possibly an over-simplification. Skilful sheltering of less strong riders can prevent the overall time increasing in direct proportion to their lesser ability. The riders do not ride at the speed the least able can manage. Looking at it the other way, however, it's easier to organise a team if one of them doesn't have to compensate for another and probably with a better outcome. But "anyone that's ridden TTT" will not be in full agreement with Sam.

If not all the riders are required to record the team time (as is the case in the TdF) some of those dropped will have been putting in a higher effort to boost the time for all, but over a shorter distance and should have been riding at a higher speed than they could have maintained for the full distance (but that's obvious as well, of course).

I also ride in competition at amateur level and my disagreement is based only on personal experience.

I like Sam and like many of the point he makes. Some here are unkind to Sam, as some have been in the past to me. I often wish that disagreement could be expressed more kindly.

 

[simoni]

Re: Re:

I corrected that Hog to 5th rider, come on. Anyone that's ridden TTT or studied it a little will know what I mean. Team Sky could only ride at the speed their slowest riders. They finished with 5 so at the end they finished at a speed set off the 5th fastest rider, I thought they finished off their 4th fastest rider that's all. By having to keep up (in the wheels more) he is slowing the stronger riders down, therefore the team as a whole is riding at the pace dictated by the next slowest rider.

Anyone can follow in the wheels regardless of the speed. The shorter and lesser turns of the worst rider will only marginally lower the final average speed. So no, the speed is not determined by the slowest rider. This is only true on uphill sections where it is easy to ride someone out of your wheel.
Take a Michelton-Scott team with Chaves. Chaves is only following in the wheels. Yes, that will slow down the team as they have 1 rider less doing turns so more work load on the others so they go slower, but they don't have to adjust their speed so Chaves can follow.

So we've a simultaneously got a situation where the slowest rider is marginally lowering the average speed yet the team is not going slower?!

And then the team don't adjust their speed yet are going slower?!

I'd suggest a re-read of what you've written!

The slowest rider by talent is still doing less watts than the other seven taking less turns and spending less time on the front, thus is not slowing the team down by his exact talent level. Drag coefficient will come into play depending on size of rider and wind direction.

Sam told us there were hundreds of articles on google to support his claim, there are none. With good reason. It’s simple mathematics in how you set up your TTT team and sequence.

I am not sure if I should intrude on all this wrangling, but La Florecita and you put it somewhat better than Sam. Some of what he says is right too, but possibly an over-simplification. Skilful sheltering of less strong riders can prevent the overall time increasing in direct proportion to their lesser ability. The riders do not ride at the speed the least able can manage. Looking at it the other way, however, it's easier to organise a team if one of them doesn't have to compensate for another and probably with a better outcome. But "anyone that's ridden TTT" will not be in full agreement with Sam.

If not all the riders are required to record the team time (as is the case in the TdF) some of those dropped will have been putting in a higher effort to boost the time for all, but over a shorter distance and should have been riding at a higher speed than they could have maintained for the full distance (but that's obvious as well, of course).

I also ride in competition at amateur level and my disagreement is based only on personal experience.

I like Sam and like many of the point he makes. Some here are unkind to Sam, as some have been in the past to me. I often wish that disagreement could be expressed more kindly.

I think its accepted that there's various strategies you could use to get a given 8 riders along a TTT course such that the 4th rider crosses the finish line as quickly as possible. What strategy you use depends on what the strengths of your riders are (e.g. keep all riders together as long as possible, protect a leader who's weak in the TT, sacrifice two or three weaker riders early so they do the first half all out and then drop off etc. etc. the possibilities are endless).

But there seems to be some sort of idea that the deficiencies of the weakest rider can somehow be removed completely.

Two responses to this -

1 - what about the second, third weakest rider, are they irrelevent to your performance too?
2 - would you rather have a weakest rider who's 6 feet tall, weighs 73kg and can sustain 300 watts for an hour or his more talented twin who can sustain 320 watts for an hour?

 

[wrinklyvet]

I read the posts and I didn't gain the impression that anyone was saying or had the idea that "the deficiencies of the weakest rider can somehow be removed completely" - at least in every case. I suspect we should now leave the lads and lasses to get on with a discussion more relevant to the Clinic

 

[macbindle]

Re: Re:

Have to agree with Brown Bobby. TTT's are about catering to your weakest rider.

What has this got to do with the CLINIC

M O D S ! ! !
BLATANT OBFUSCATION
has been going on in the clinic for the last two days

update: it continues below with (anyone else wanna join the list?)

bobbybrown
Singer01

You are showing blatant bias here.

Why haven't you included:

thehog
La Florecita

 

[TourOfSardinia]

just gave up updating
the discussion isn't so that it keeps you awake

Ps: how did donkey Froome transcend himself and become a GT winner.
Any new explanations guys/gals

 

[JosephK]

Re:

just gave up updating
the discussion isn't so that it keeps you awake

Ps: how did donkey Froome transcend himself and become a GT winner.
Any new explanations guys/gals

The talent was always there. Top 100 in the Tour of Poland in the Year of Transformation. Froome just had to lose the fat.

 

[macbindle]

Re:

just gave up updating
the discussion isn't so that it keeps you awake

Ps: how did donkey Froome transcend himself and become a GT winner.
Any new explanations guys/gals

Nope.

Bilharzia and marginal gains or loads of undetectable drugs.

Take your pick.

 

[topcat]

Anyone think CF will test positive in this tdf? I wouldn't be surprised myself.

 

[brownbobby]

Re: Re:

Have to agree with Brown Bobby. TTT's are about catering to your weakest rider.

What has this got to do with the CLINIC

M O D S ! ! !
BLATANT OBFUSCATION
has been going on in the clinic for the last two days

update: it continues below with (anyone else wanna join the list?)

bobbybrown
Singer01

Nope. I didnt say a single word on the debate. I just answered your question 'What has this got to do with the clinic'.

You're welcome

 

[Benotti69]

WADA statement.

https://www.wada-ama.org/en/media/news/2018-07/wada-clarifies-facts-regarding-uci-decision-on-christopher-froome

In April, WADA requested to intervene in the UCI proceedings as a third party so as to meet any challenge to the salbutamol regime but its request was denied by the UCI Tribunal. Despite this denial, and in order to assist the parties, WADA provided a further detailed note on the salbutamol regime on 15 May, addressing the substance of Mr. Froome’s questions.

When WADA received Mr. Froome's substantial explanations and evidence on 4 June, the Agency promptly reviewed them together with both in-house and external experts and liaised with the UCI before communicating its position statement on 28 June. Then, on 2 July, UCI announced its decision to close the case.

So no testing of Froome.

WADA the PR side of the sport that loves its good personal relations with sports top stars!!!

 

[gillan1969]

Re:

WADA statement.

https://www.wada-ama.org/en/media/news/2018-07/wada-clarifies-facts-regarding-uci-decision-on-christopher-froome

In April, WADA requested to intervene in the UCI proceedings as a third party so as to meet any challenge to the salbutamol regime but its request was denied by the UCI Tribunal. Despite this denial, and in order to assist the parties, WADA provided a further detailed note on the salbutamol regime on 15 May, addressing the substance of Mr. Froome’s questions.

When WADA received Mr. Froome's substantial explanations and evidence on 4 June, the Agency promptly reviewed them together with both in-house and external experts and liaised with the UCI before communicating its position statement on 28 June. Then, on 2 July, UCI announced its decision to close the case.

So no testing of Froome.

WADA the PR side of the sport that loves its good personal relations with sports top stars!!!

"clarifies"????? Are they having a laugh

so...it would appear to all come down to the data supplied by Froome over the course of the Vuelta...the inputs of which can only be self-reported

 

[thehog]

Re:

WADA statement.

https://www.wada-ama.org/en/media/news/2018-07/wada-clarifies-facts-regarding-uci-decision-on-christopher-froome

In April, WADA requested to intervene in the UCI proceedings as a third party so as to meet any challenge to the salbutamol regime but its request was denied by the UCI Tribunal. Despite this denial, and in order to assist the parties, WADA provided a further detailed note on the salbutamol regime on 15 May, addressing the substance of Mr. Froome’s questions.

When WADA received Mr. Froome's substantial explanations and evidence on 4 June, the Agency promptly reviewed them together with both in-house and external experts and liaised with the UCI before communicating its position statement on 28 June. Then, on 2 July, UCI announced its decision to close the case.

So no testing of Froome.

WADA the PR side of the sport that loves its good personal relations with sports top stars!!!

Why were WADA attempting to intervene?

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

WADA statement.

https://www.wada-ama.org/en/media/news/2018-07/wada-clarifies-facts-regarding-uci-decision-on-christopher-froome

In April, WADA requested to intervene in the UCI proceedings as a third party so as to meet any challenge to the salbutamol regime but its request was denied by the UCI Tribunal. Despite this denial, and in order to assist the parties, WADA provided a further detailed note on the salbutamol regime on 15 May, addressing the substance of Mr. Froome’s questions.

When WADA received Mr. Froome's substantial explanations and evidence on 4 June, the Agency promptly reviewed them together with both in-house and external experts and liaised with the UCI before communicating its position statement on 28 June. Then, on 2 July, UCI announced its decision to close the case.

So no testing of Froome.

WADA the PR side of the sport that loves its good personal relations with sports top stars!!!

Why were WADA attempting to intervene?

Game of chess, Knight takes Frenchie.......

 

[TourOfSardinia]

Who were the WADA people who decided this?
What's their pedigree?

 

[Benotti69]

Re:

Who were the WADA people who decided this?
What's their pedigree?

Friends of Brailsford.

 

[MartinGT]

Re: Re:

WADA statement.

https://www.wada-ama.org/en/media/news/2018-07/wada-clarifies-facts-regarding-uci-decision-on-christopher-froome

In April, WADA requested to intervene in the UCI proceedings as a third party so as to meet any challenge to the salbutamol regime but its request was denied by the UCI Tribunal. Despite this denial, and in order to assist the parties, WADA provided a further detailed note on the salbutamol regime on 15 May, addressing the substance of Mr. Froome’s questions.

When WADA received Mr. Froome's substantial explanations and evidence on 4 June, the Agency promptly reviewed them together with both in-house and external experts and liaised with the UCI before communicating its position statement on 28 June. Then, on 2 July, UCI announced its decision to close the case.

So no testing of Froome.

WADA the PR side of the sport that loves its good personal relations with sports top stars!!!

Why were WADA attempting to intervene?

Game of chess, Knight takes Frenchie.......

:lol: oh I lold hard at that one.

 

[Escarabajo]

Why some people post in the clinic and not in the road forum?
Especially some that defend Sky or Froome. That is weird.

 

[JosephK]

WADA looks worse every time they release a statement on the Froome AAF case.