- Jun 7, 2010
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roundabout said:30 minutes on Sky Sports News tomorrow
lol, I don't blame them. Gotta milk the cow before its too late.
Walsh doing the narrating?
- Jun 14, 2010
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Dazed and Confused said:
Wiggins last year got a 5 part prime time documentary, that also got several repeats on prime time. (probably a large part of the hullaballoo was that Wiggins won the tdf in the home olympic year and then the olympics as well)
Now his successor, who truimphed in one of the most dominant fashions of the modern era, and looks like he could only just be getting started, only gets a short piece on the tv for unemployed people network. And Wiggins too is falling, soon will be lucky to get onto c list celebrity reality shows. In any other country he would get far more attention.
Its because even people who believe in Sky (and they are told to by the media) haven't really experienced the victory.
Cycling could have grown in the uk if Sky worked their way up, fought at all levels of the sport for a number of years, got people's attention slowly and THEN produced a challenger who fights a few years for the Tour and finally wins.
If you go straight from 0 to absolutely dominating a sport in unprescedented style from the moment you enter, there's no feeling of having been along for the ride.
Most of the UK public only heard of Wiggins after he already won the Tour. This year they hear this other guy they never heard of before, also won the Tour.
Those who watched the Tours will have seen Froome and Wiggins essentially shore up the victory on both occasions by the second gc stage and most of their viewership hours was a procession.
For English people (those who's support is based on nationality) winning the TDF probably feels a bit like beating San Marino in an international football match. Its expected to happen, and no great acheivement if it does, even if by a massive margin.
The Hitch said:
sorry, not arguing or anything, but can you cut this down to a couple of sentences?
- Aug 12, 2012
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The Hitch said:
Movistar was the best team this year man, I think you are a little bit lost.
Purito was best rider.
Spain best country.
SKy is the only team in UK, they they have more money, so they have the best riders and the best in everything thay can pay it, it is always like that in sport and life, if you are surprising about that, you have the problem.
Wiggins was in the top already, but he is not the best rider now, he is just one more of the best.
Join the best Spanish riders in a team, a country with a big crisis in cycling, and imagine what they would be.
SKy start very strong, that is true, but the year is long, if you train a lot in december, you have that problem.
Unfortunately for cycling, just Urán leaves the team, and they sign a very strong domestique as Nieve for the mountains...but.. it is legal to do that.
- Jun 14, 2010
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Dazed and Confused said:
Due to the fact that Sky have absolutely dominated the TDF from their 3rd year already, before they even had a chance to establish themselves the TDF GC has been totally devalued in the UK and as a result a Froome victory doesn't really get the reception a TDF victory should otherwise deserve.
I wasn't arguing with you, just using your comment about miliking the cow as an intro.
The Hitch said:
UK is battling the plastic brit issue at this time. Froome will not get the required votes. Wiggins will be back on the TdF team next year imo.
- Jun 14, 2010
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Dazed and Confused said:
Due to the fact that Sky have absolutely dominated the TDF from their 3rd year already, before they even had a chance to establish themselves the TDF GC has been totally devalued in the UK and as a result a Froome victory doesn't really get the reception a TDF victory should otherwise deserve.
I wasn't arguing with you, just using your comment about miliking the cow as an intro.
thehog
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- Jul 27, 2009
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Dazed and Confused said:
Agreed. He needs to be photographed coming out of a nightclub with a blonde on his arm at 2am to get cred.
He also looks ridiculous on a bike. David Beckham always had trouble stringing words together but when he played it was like poetry.
I can't see Froome becoming a UK star. No matter how much News Corp. and Walsh try and turn him into something the Dawg is just not star material.
Lance at least was good for a sound bite but Froome is as dry as they come. Not a marketers dream. A long way from it.
I prefer Wiggins.
thehog said:
Wiggins is sellable in UK. Besides I still like Wiggo's off the bike antics better than Froome's approach. Endlessly dull.
martinvickers
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- Oct 15, 2012
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Dazed and Confused said:
It's not as complicated as that - and I do love the sociological analysis of the Brits, Hitch ;-)
Sir Edmund Hilary climbed Everest with Tenzing Norgay - got him a knighthood, and fame.
Who was next, without looking it up?
No,me neither.
The Buzz Aldrins of the world who are actually quite well known for being 'the second' are few and far between.
Everyone knows Sir ('sir again') Roger Bannister was the first sub-4 minute mile.
Only quite clued in fans of the sport know who was next to do it. (Landy, for the record.)
martinvickers
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- Oct 15, 2012
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thehog said:
Ok, have to pull you up here, Hoggie!!
Poetry?? Beckham??
No-one loves mufc more than I do, but Sir David was a one-trick pony - two if you count his free kicks as a separate one. It was a magnificent trick, but poetry? No, that's taking poetic licence too far...
thehog
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- Jul 27, 2009
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martinvickers said:
The four minute mike is not a good example. Everyone knows Landy as well as Bannister. Not because Landy was 2nd to do it but because both of them were competitors of each other across the Commenweath but both trying to break the barrier at the same time.
Who would be first? The Brit or the Australian?
Even though Bannister got there first no one forgets Bannister or Landy because of the Mircle Mile at the Empire Games. Worth watching on youtube in fading black & white.
The unknown athlete was the American who took a payment for running and was suspended. He was probably the best athlete or the 3 who were all trying for the four minute mile. And I can't remember his name.
Although there was no Internet back then all 3 names were in the papers in each country.
As a side note (Dr) Bannister just like Sky used science, marginal gains and pacemakers to break the record whereas Landy was trying to break it in a traditional race set up.
Maybe Bannister blood doped and used EPO for the record?
The Hitch said:
Excellent post. Every word worth its value. (D&C !)
A slight extension on the analysis. There is the sporting hero and the character who moves beyond their sport - Beckham. Opportunities to do the latter depend more on being in the right place at the right time, as much as being the right person. Paula Radcliffe gained "legend" status in the uk by 2003 because her message was clear. "The authorities are sh1** at catching and dealing with drugtakers and I am losing races as a consequence". That the authorities then criticised her, just reinforced her case. "Clueless blazers". Every body who has had anything to do with sport at any level has encountered these buffoons. Sports administration is the home of the male who has failed at most other things in life and hankers after status beyond due ability. Undoubtedly she has eroded her own iconography with a number of events since 2003, but her status is still widely held 10 years after her zenith.
Whilst we vent our frustration here, as professional cycling purpotrates a sham every bit as fixed as professional wrestling, we think others believe the pap served up by the sports announcers, moonlighting as journalists.
Chat to some of your work colleagues who are not really into sport. Ask them what they think. The endless cricket fixes, the endless football betting scams, all have taken their toll. Bruce Grobbelaar was not found guilty of match fixing at two trials, but video tape evidence was provided of him discussing match fixing and anyone who watched the news reports of yet another Liverpool fail due to a goal keeping "error" by Bruce could only ever think that he had to be guilty. Every football story since has reinforced that perception. Lance was guilty in the minds of many who were casually aware of him, before he went on Oprah. At Oprah, he just blew away his fan boys and the yellow bracelet wearers. And the fan boys were so vociferous prior to that event not because they loved Lance, they just didn't want to admit to themselves that they had been taken for donkeys. It was all to do with image of self.
As Lance "flipped" on Oprah, just as Sky were trying to tell us Sutton was moving away to concentrate on other things and Yates was retiring on health grounds and neither were like those nasty guys Leinders, Barry, de Jong and Julrich, the sports announcers had a moment to reflect. A glance across at Sir Brad showed that he had developed selective amnesia every bit as much as the pre-Oprah Lance and off the bike he came across like a spoilt, idiot. A sense of self preservation against possible future exposures, kicked in with many a sports announcer hedging their options looking ahead.
This year, the continued mantra "nothing to see here - move along", set against the ineptness of the authorities in prosecuting in anything like the manner needed at op Puerto or via the French Senate release of the Tour positives of 98, tells the casual observer everything they need to know.
The Hitch said:
Great post. I think part of the reason that the Tour didn't catch on in Britain, even with two Tour winners in two years is that they were not last minute epic struggle victories against mighty challengers they were formulaic, machine like victories. Victories that were never in doubt.
- Jul 21, 2012
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martinvickers said:
Bradley Wiggins was the first person in history to win the tour de France?
If not, none of these comparisons have any merit whatsoever, and I'm surprised to see you used them. Hint: Hillary, Armstrong and Banister were the first people ever to accomplish those feats, not first people from their country to do it after those feats had been accomplished 98 times before by about 40 different people.
Ps, also, winning the tdf is not really perceived as a barrier for humanity. It's an organized sporting event which produces 1 winner every year. I know wiggo's fans love their guy and try to hype him as much as possible, but lets leave comparisons to the 1969 moon landing out for now.
As a momentous occasion for mankind I would rank the latter a little bit higher, even if some on here would disagree.
- Jul 21, 2012
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- Apr 20, 2012
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There may be slow traffic on CN forums but hats off to Freddythefrog and Hitch.
Loved this one:
''As Lance "flipped" on Oprah, just as Sky were trying to tell us Sutton was moving away to concentrate on other things and Yates was retiring on health grounds and neither were like those nasty guys Leinders, Barry, de Jong and Julrich, the sports announcers had a moment to reflect. A glance across at Sir Brad showed that he had developed selective amnesia every bit as much as the pre-Oprah Lance and off the bike he came across like a spoilt, idiot. A sense of self preservation against possible future exposures, kicked in with many a sports announcer hedging their options looking ahead.''
Loved this one:
''As Lance "flipped" on Oprah, just as Sky were trying to tell us Sutton was moving away to concentrate on other things and Yates was retiring on health grounds and neither were like those nasty guys Leinders, Barry, de Jong and Julrich, the sports announcers had a moment to reflect. A glance across at Sir Brad showed that he had developed selective amnesia every bit as much as the pre-Oprah Lance and off the bike he came across like a spoilt, idiot. A sense of self preservation against possible future exposures, kicked in with many a sports announcer hedging their options looking ahead.''
- Feb 20, 2010
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Taxus4a said:
You're thinking of BMC. They're the team that uses the money to buy the best riders because they can pay for it. The "Sky have the money and buy the best riders" argument has more than a few holes. On the back of this, here are your Sky hires and where they were ranked in the world according to CQ the year before they joined Sky.
Edvald Boasson Hagen: 6th
Mark Cavendish: 9th
Mick Rogers: 23rd
Simon Gerrans: 41st
Bradley Wiggins: 43rd
Thomas Löfkvist: 45th
Jonathan Tiernan-Locke: 75th
Greg Henderson: 96th
Chris Sutton: 101st
Kanstantsin Siutsou: 114th
Rigoberto Urán: 121st
Dario Cataldo: 121st
Christian Knees: 122nd
Juan Antonio Flecha: 123rd
Vasil Kiryienka: 144th
Davide Appollonio: 176th
Richie Porte: 206th
Matthew Hayman: 211th
Bernhard Eisel: 217th
Sylvain Calzati: 230th
Russell Downing: 254th
Ben Swift: 264th
Kurt-Asle Arvesen: 267th
Joe Dombrowski: 334th
Sergio Luís Henao: 347th
Steve Cummings: 356th
Davide Vigano: 361st
Chris Froome: 367th
Dario Cioni: 379th
David López: 386th
Lars Petter Nordhaug: 418th
Morris Possoni: 447th
Serge Pauwels: 465th
Jeremy Hunt: 528th
Michael Barry: 550th
Ian Boswell: 574th
Salvatore Puccio: 588th
Geraint Thomas: 675th
Danny Pate: 682nd
Peter Kennaugh: 711th
Luke Rowe: 735th
Kjell Carlström: 770th
John-Lee Augustyn: 779th
Xabier Zandio: 945th
Gabriel Rasch: 979th
Ian Stannard: 1027th
Josh Edmondson: 1654th
Alex Dowsett: 1973rd
Nicolas Portal: 2310th
Now, obviously this is a bit of a misnomer; Kurt-Asle Arvesen and Matthew Hayman for example were renowned as top quality road captain and classic domestique respectively, much as Sylwester Szmyd's CQ score won't tell you what a top quality rider he was in '08-'09 or so. Also, a rider like Russell Downing was competing for the win in every race he got to enter in 2009, but on the domestic scene that didn't allow for so many points; Sergio Henao was seen as a megatalent, but many of the races he was bossing in Colombia had no UCI status so would not reflect in CQ; while somebody who is only highly visible in one part of the season like Juan Antonio Flecha can be one of the best at his chosen specialism without it reflecting in his scores. However, it says quite a lot that so few of the Sky riders were top 100 CQ scores before they signed - and in fact a lot of the highest ranked riders in their pre-Sky days are ones that have not improved at Sky (EBH has stagnated, Gerrans struggled at Sky before coming back to prominence late in his contract and as he moved to GreenEdge, Löfkvist has fallen well away from his pre-Sky level).
(An aside, was Geraint Thomas injured in 2009? I don't recall, but it isn't an Olympic/track-focus year, and he received a lot of attention for his potential when he signed for Sky, there's a three month gap between results mid-season there as well).
The numbers are also skewed by changing roles, of course. At Milram, Christian Knees was one of their strongest rouleurs and often picked up placements in classics and so forth resulting in good CQ scores but often picked up fairly anonymously. At Sky his scores have plummeted as they've used that engine to turn him into their top choice of flat domestique in the big races - not bad for somebody picked up at the last minute off waivers in the wake of the Pegasus disaster! Similarly Dario Cataldo, who had had a free hand in the non-GC-minded Quick Step, became a mountain domestique for the Colombians and Wiggins instead.
So, overall, the team whose domination is understandable because they buy the best have purchased 49 riders over their four years of existence (I have not included riders purchased for 2014, as they haven't raced for Sky yet to join the ranks of peloton dominators, so we should only judge those who've already participated in the displays of peloton dominance that we're debating whether the team have bought the best for). Of these, 8 have been ranked in the top 100 in the world before signing for Sky (16,33%). Interestingly, of the top 10 riders named (i.e. those who had the ten best pre-Sky rankings) 6 of them come from the same team (HTC-High Road). Also of note is that of that list, the two that have been implicated in current doping are both among those up at the top (Rogers and Tiernan-Locke).
Now, obviously there are many flaws in this methodology and I will not try to pretend there aren't. However, I would extrapolate from this two hypotheses:
1) purchasing "the top riders" does not necessarily lead to top success, as some of these may have peaked young like Löfkvist, may have been Pecharromán-style flukes, or may be more suspicious like JTL - if buying "the top riders" guaranteed top success you would expect BMC to outperform Sky and Movistar with their purchases such as Evans (3rd prior to joining), Gilbert (1st) and Hushovd (40th);
2) Sky demonstrably did not succeed simply due to purchasing "the top riders" as they have purchased riders from all kinds of success levels. They haven't done the USPS job of signing GT candidates to ride in service of their GT leader, paying them back with Giri and Vueltas - they have purchased strong peripheral GC men and sent them to work as domestiques (Cataldo, Siutsou) and had riders who had previously not been superstars turn into them (Froome, Porte). This latter group were quite demonstrably not "the best" when they signed for Sky, which makes the "they bought the best" argument a bit redundant. This latter group have leapfrogged the few names Sky had bought that actually were among the best when Sky signed them.
For the record though, Sky's 2014 signings:
Mikel Nieve: 104th
Philip Deignan: 266th
Nathan Earle: 328th
Sebastian Henao: 2946th
- Apr 3, 2009
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Excellent post on many levels, as usual, LS.
There's that old elephant in the room again. Never can quite figure out what to do with this anomaly.
Libertine Seguros said:
There's that old elephant in the room again. Never can quite figure out what to do with this anomaly.
- Jul 21, 2012
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Im glad you take the time to write posts like that LS. I bookmarked that post for further reference for the next time someone brings up that argument.
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