Teams & Riders Froome Talk Only

[No_Balls]

Re: Re:

Is Salbutamol even considered a PED? Are there any scientific studies done that shows it to be effective in aiding performance? I've a feeling they could get away with this.

Performance enhancing or not,that debate will continue to rumble on but is now irrelevant in this case. The rules are there and precedent has been set. The onus of proof is now on Froome, and if Froome cannot prove that he did not exceed the permissible doseage, then i don't see how he can possibly get away with it.

Salbutamol at high doses was performance enhancing. Don't have the source by hand. Something like 23% increase in duration till exhaustion

Its also depending on how he got it. If its through inhaler, tablets, syrups et.al.

Bottom line is that it gives you some delicate advantages over competitors in similar (racing) conditions. In order to overcome obstacles so that asmathics could compete the governing bodies have prescripted a minimum dosage over a limited time frame. Froomey is waaay over that dosage.

So, he will get a punishment for sure. The only thing for him now is to clear himself and explain how and why he is waaaay over the prescripted dosage.

Salbutamol is considered relative to Clenbuenterol btw.

Except Clenbuterol is banned. Full stop. No therapeutic uses and no permissible levels in the body.

Not saying its exactly the same. But its a fine thin line balancing between the performance enhancing drugs and straight out banned drugs - a loophole im certain Brailsford have identified and exploited.

Its like the norwegian skiing team who have caravans of trucks turned Salbutamol centrals on every race for inhalers. Im seeing something similar down the line for team sky.

 

[ScienceIsCool]

Just doing a naive literature search, I was able to find some papers on the effect of acute (Froome levels) ingestion of Salbutamol on aerobic performance. There aren't a ton, but the consensus is that low doses (4 puffs) do nothing. High doses (4-6 mg) don't affect short term performance (10 minutes), but do elevate blood glucose and insulin. High doses do improve performance in a huge way. Time to exhaustion increased by 29% in those who didn't have an adverse reaction. So in high doses I could see this used as a mostly legal PED and a recovery product. Just don't go over the max allowed!

Abstracts:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11071049
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10912897
https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Gregoire_Millet2/publication/11028047_Effects_of_Salbutamol_and_Caffeine_Ingestion_on_Exercise_Metabolism_and_Performance/links/0c960526c226db2126000000.pdf

John Swanson

 

[bigcog]

If he gets a ban which I can't see why not, that will be the end of his time at Sky and end of career I reckon.

 

[therhodeo]

Re: Re:

Geraint on athletes with asthma

http://road.cc/content/news/214380-interview-geraint-thomas-tues-disc-brakes-shane-sutton-and-more

Saying people with asthma shouldn't be doing competitive sport is like saying people with glasses shouldn't be allowed to drive a car since they're slightly hampered by a condition they can't control. Although I myself never seeked measurements like Froome when doing competitive sports.

Look at wellens, he has a heat allergy and therefore decided to not ride in the hottest conditions (tdf).

That's a pretty poor analogy to be honest, on many levels.

Indeed. If there was a drug that Wellens could take that made him faster in the heat them maybe it would be the same.

 

[carton]

Nibali:

"It had rained during those day in Spain and so it seems difficult that he suffered with asthma. I’ve got the same problem but when it rains the pollen doesn’t cause any problems and you don’t even need to take one puff of Ventolin,” Nibali said, according to Tuttobici.

"For sure this is a terrible news for the sport and for me."

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/nibali-chris-froome-salbutamol-case-is-terrible-for-the-sport/

Daniel Friebe‏
@friebos

Note that Nibali's comments have now been edited on @tuttobiciweb_it website, with reference to Nibali's allergies and Ventolin removed. Curious...but guess that means they were originally "misreported" or have been withdrawn.

https://twitter.com/friebos/status/940917470277373952

Still though, I love how Nibali goes balls deep with his statements.

That quote has been almost completely withdrawn now, so I won't comment on how daft it is.

I'm vexed by Salbutamol limits. I use it as little as possible, but it's a highly individually variable thing, I've seen people who just can't get it under control no matter what they do. Nothing like the feeling of not being able to get air into your lungs to cure even the faintest hint of pharmacophobia. And the benefit I get, outside of stopping a coughing fit, is feeling lightheaded, which is why I only use it after exercise, particularly on open roads. But I'm on the wrong side of the pro consensus on that one, apparently.

The thing is, you need a TUE for pretty much all of the other asthma drugs, most of which (bar, as far as I can tell, Salbutamol) face actual evidence of performance benefits. So something's gotta give. I get why people might feel cheated, but I also get the need for allowing people to breathe. Particularly as it seems that it's often the cycling itself that causes the condition. Personally, if no performance effects have been found so far, and actual studies have been conducted, lifting the limits might be the best solution. But maybe I'm biased as Salbutamol works for me. So maybe conduct a more studies, or maybe a more stringent biological passport for asthmatics, or a "cleaner" way for us to forfeit a competition if need be, is the way forward. In any case want to see the rubber meet the road on this one, see things hopefully get a little more settled.

Still, the rules are the rules, and if Froome broke them well then that's that on that. And Nibali posing as the clean little angel who was getting ripped off by the cheats is beyond sublime.

 

[No_Balls]

Re: Re:

Is Salbutamol even considered a PED? Are there any scientific studies done that shows it to be effective in aiding performance? I've a feeling they could get away with this.

Performance enhancing or not,that debate will continue to rumble on but is now irrelevant in this case. The rules are there and precedent has been set. The onus of proof is now on Froome, and if Froome cannot prove that he did not exceed the permissible doseage, then i don't see how he can possibly get away with it.

Salbutamol at high doses was performance enhancing. Don't have the source by hand. Something like 23% increase in duration till exhaustion

Its also depending on how he got it. If its through inhaler, tablets, syrups et.al.

Bottom line is that it gives you some delicate advantages over competitors in similar (racing) conditions. In order to overcome obstacles so that asmathics could compete the governing bodies have prescripted a minimum dosage over a limited time frame. Froomey is waaay over that dosage.

So, he will get a punishment for sure. The only thing for him now is to clear himself and explain how and why he is waaaay over the prescripted dosage.

Salbutamol is considered relative to Clenbuenterol btw.

Not in this case it isn't. Wikipedia isn't always your friend.

Its not from Wikipedia but Department of Nutrition, Exercise & Sports, Section of Integrated Physiology from the University of Copenhagen. Im no scientist so when reading credible sources i take that as fact.

 

[Frankschleck]

Wow i am shocked. He should of course at least get a year and the vuelta taken away from him. I don't believe people with astma should be riding pro cycling.

 

[hrotha]

Re: Re:

Imagine (that like me) you have asthma and when being a kid you're told you can't do sport unlike all your friends because taking medicines in order to not faint/end up in ER is wrong.

Remember when Pistorius wasn't a murderer and the technical consensus was that he shouldn't be allowed to take part in non-Paralympic competitions because his prosthetics actually gave him an advantage over athletes with natural limbs?

 

[brownbobby]

Re: Re:

Geraint on athletes with asthma

http://road.cc/content/news/214380-interview-geraint-thomas-tues-disc-brakes-shane-sutton-and-more

Saying people with asthma shouldn't be doing competitive sport is like saying people with glasses shouldn't be allowed to drive a car since they're slightly hampered by a condition they can't control. Although I myself never seeked measurements like Froome when doing competitive sports.

Look at wellens, he has a heat allergy and therefore decided to not ride in the hottest conditions (tdf).

That's a pretty poor analogy to be honest, on many levels.

feel free to explain, cos I've heard both...

Allowing people to wear glasses while driving does not potentially provide them with an advantage in the job market that is unavailable to those without glasses. It allows them to take part in what may be a very necessary part of normal life and reduces the general risk to other road users.

Being allowed to take drugs that may give you a performance boost over other athletes in a sport that people choose to take part in is very, very different. This would be a debate over the TUE system, which isn't really relevant here, but it's still a very poor analogy.

Correct me if i'm wrong, but as i understand it since 2010 no TUE has been required for salbutamol within the prescribed doseage levels. Therefore any cyclist, without having to provide any evidence of asthma, is as free to use an inhaler as they are to take an energy gel.

In most of the medical literature i've read, it seems to be a commonly held fact that unless you really do suffer from asthma, then the use of an inhaler, certainly within the permissible limits, will have zero effects on performance, or indeed health in general. The manner in which the UCI/WADA classify this drug would seem to support this.

If this wasn't the case, if people genuinely thought there was a performance gain to be had, then surely we'd see the use of inhalers within the peloton even more widely than we do now.

On this basis, that asthma can be treated so simply and without any performance enhancement then i think its just wrong to say that people with asthma should be excluded from professional sport.

The subject of TUE's is entirely different, this deals with drugs which at any doseage, or drugs which above a certain doseage, can be misused to provide performance enhancing benefits.

 

[buckle]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/sports-personality/42249639

 

[MartinGT]

I think people are wishful thinking that this is the end of Sky & Froome. He will have the defence of it was the doctor and he seems to have the backing of SDB.

 

[perico]

Re: Re:

His reign is nearly finished because too old for the Tour now. Unless Sky can find a replacement they will start looking like has-beens for a few years, maybe they can target a monument or start a string of failed assaults at the big tours...

when horner can win a GT at whatever age using whatever help then unfortunately, when you have an athlete which nothing makes sense about, I wouldn't write-off the hapless hero being around for a while longer....rubbing it in the nose of everyone for a while yet I fear......

Yup. And the only thing you can do is cry and whine about it. It's so funny.

i think you'll find I've gone down the "if you didn't laugh you would cry" road with the hapless froome...however its his supporters that i reserve the biggest laugh for....

Sure...You should do that for all the dopers' supporters too. :lol: :razz:
Or not, since you come to the forum to ridicule the best gt rider of his generation and the only rider to do the Tour-Vuelta double in the current calendar setting.
As I said, keep crying. Nobody cares!

Bump....

 

[MarkvW]

Imagine being addicted to steroids, and then being told that you can't race a bicycle. Imagine the shattering unfairness of it all.

Froome has bilharzia! Can't you people understand that? Bilharzia made Froome stronger, just like cancer made Armstrong stronger! But Froome needs to dope!

Bilharzia made Froome take the salbuterol. Give the guy a break!

 

[Brian Butterfield]

https://twitter.com/MRasmussen1974/status/940860049500536832

"a little extra "

 

[MartinGT]

I bet Digger is having a right day on Twitter?

 

[Escarabajo]

Re: Re:

Precedent tells us that sanctions for salbutamol are hard to predict.

Agreed.

Al we know is there's a positive test, sanctions have been dealt out for less, and minimum sentences have doubled?

Also Ullisi cooperated and got it down from 2 years to 9 months.

This wil drag on for long. I think 2 years would be curtains for Froome as winning GT rider.

"However, Italian Leonardo Piepoli avoided any ban when reportedly returning levels of salbutamol similar to those by Froome, having successfully explained the reasons for the abnormal test."

So there's a chance I can enjoy Froome's performances even next year :lol:

If he survives this he won't survive the bash in France.

 

[Pantani Attacks]

Re:

I bet Digger is having a right day on Twitter?

He's digging out the old bilharzia = no asthma articles and everything. Great stuff.

 

[brownbobby]

http://inrng.com/2017/12/chris-froomes-salbutamol-case/

http://www.doping.chuv.ch/files/salbutamol_03.pdf

Some interesting bits on previous studies

 

[pastronef]

Re:

If they get away with this, I'm truly done with "pro" cycling.
Hopefully Sky will crumble.

remind me how many positive tests Astana had between pro team and U23 in the last ten years?
they got away with that

 

[MartinGT]

I wonder if any of Wiggos comments about shocking people was anything about this?

 

[Freddythefrog]

Re:

Close

You master the art of hiding the heavy duty stuff and then trip over on freaking Salbutamol. Nothing is foolproof.

Lots of time to get those ducks sorted out into a very nice row.

A very nice row indeed.

An entirely believable row

"Now Mr Froome....... you have had your fun but ......... has got to stop."

As I said earlier. Froome and Cound have watched and learnt. They have backed both outcomes with actions that are way smarter than would appear at first sight. I think this is a win.

 

[veji11]

Re: Re:

If they get away with this, I'm truly done with "pro" cycling.
Hopefully Sky will crumble.

remind me how many positive tests Astana had between pro team and U23 in the last ten years?
they got away with that

Astana is the pet project of an autocrat whose manager is a convicted multidoper, not the same positioning in terms of virtue. Sky played on a squeaky clean image on the contrary.

 

[Climbing]

Re: Re:

If they get away with this, I'm truly done with "pro" cycling.
Hopefully Sky will crumble.

remind me how many positive tests Astana had between pro team and U23 in the last ten years?
they got away with that

Not their riders though, that would be enough.

 

[70kmph]

This looks bad...

 

[Netserk]

Haha, just found out about this

A shame it wasn't something more naughty, but this is still great. Hopefully this will mean no Force Choke on the Giro nor the Tour next year!