Teams & Riders Froome Talk Only

[samhocking]

He said he had more in the tank because he had lots of turns on downhill sections. Besides a TT gets ridden at the speed of your 4th slowest rider anyway, regardless of who's on the front.

 

[thehog]

Re:

He said he had more in the tank because he had lots of turns on downhill sections. Besides a TT gets ridden at the speed of your 4th slowest rider anyway, regardless of who's on the front.

No. The final time is taken from the fourth rider, the TTT is not ridden at the “speed” of your fourth slowest rider because you start with 8 all taking turns.

Poor analysis again.

 

[Huapango]

Re: Re:

He said he had more in the tank because he had lots of turns on downhill sections. Besides a TT gets ridden at the speed of your 4th slowest rider anyway, regardless of who's on the front.

No. The final time is taken from the fourth rider, the TTT is not ridden at the “speed” of your fourth slowest rider because you start with 8 all taking turns.

Poor analysis again.

Give Sam a break. He's just a concrete guy who was hired to work part-time in Team Sky's social networking department.

 

[Lo squalo di messina]

Re: Re:

He said he had more in the tank because he had lots of turns on downhill sections. Besides a TT gets ridden at the speed of your 4th slowest rider anyway, regardless of who's on the front.

No. The final time is taken from the fourth rider, the TTT is not ridden at the “speed” of your fourth slowest rider because you start with 8 all taking turns.

Poor analysis again.

Give Sam a break. He's just a concrete guy who was hired to work part-time in Team Sky's social networking department.

Part time? i cant even begin to imagine what a full time sam might look like.

 

[ahsoe]

Shouldn't we get back to the discussion of the topic of the thread and leave individuals alone?

 

[macbindle]

And deny the gang of brave bullies their sport?

 

[thehog]

Re:

Shouldn't we get back to the discussion of the topic of the thread and leave individuals alone?

I think we all agree but when an individual makes up stories that Brailafraud has secret information on the UCI and provides no qualification to that statement then said individual will be called out and most likely reported.

 

[samhocking]

Re: Re:

He said he had more in the tank because he had lots of turns on downhill sections. Besides a TT gets ridden at the speed of your 4th slowest rider anyway, regardless of who's on the front.

No. The final time is taken from the fourth rider, the TTT is not ridden at the “speed” of your fourth slowest rider because you start with 8 all taking turns.

Poor analysis again.

You knew what I mean. I thought they finished with 4 riders. Either way you can only ride as fast as the slowest rider, be that 4,5,6 or whoever it is at the end.

 

[thehog]

Re: Re:

He said he had more in the tank because he had lots of turns on downhill sections. Besides a TT gets ridden at the speed of your 4th slowest rider anyway, regardless of who's on the front.

No. The final time is taken from the fourth rider, the TTT is not ridden at the “speed” of your fourth slowest rider because you start with 8 all taking turns.

Poor analysis again.

You knew what I mean. I thought they finished with 4 riders. Either way you can only ride as fast as the slowest rider, be that 4,5,6 or whoever it is at the end.

No, they will ride as fast as they can as a team taking turns with the final time taken from the fourth rider - ie if Froome let the other three finish ahead of him it doesn’t mean he was the slowest.

Are you really this obtuse to not understand the basics?

 

[samhocking]

It's a common explanation of how to ride a TTT thanks. If you've done TTTs yourself, you'll know you are only as fast as the weakest riders. Of course you ride as fast as you can as a unit, that's the whole point and by using tactics of stronger riders pulling longer, weaker riders can stay within formation.

 

[TourOfSardinia]

Re:

It's a common explanation of how to ride a TTT thanks. If you've done TTTs yourself, you'll know you are only as strong as the weakest riders. Of course you ride as fast as you can as a unit, that's the whole point.

And that is related to Froome
How?

 

[samhocking]

Read post above, we're talking about Froome & Thomas in TTT.

 

[thehog]

Re:

It's a common explanation of how to ride a TTT thanks. If you've done TTTs yourself, you'll know you are only as strong as the weakest riders. Of course you ride as fast as you can as a unit, that's the whole point.

It’s still not true and it’s not common expression at least to those who understand cycling. You can sit on the back of steaming chaingain of 70 riders for 100km, finish with the lead rider on the same time and still be the slowest rider in the group. Same as TTTs. In fact l’equipe had a article on this very topic this week.

It’s really that simple Sam.

 

[samhocking]

You're plain wrong and you've clearly never ridden a TTT either. You cannot ride faster than your weakest rider because if you do they get separated. Stronger riders and sacrificial riders will therefore do more work than the weaker riders to maintain a higher average speed into the wind without the formation splitting detrimentally. But, the payoff is they get less recovery time as doing more work into the wind, so average speed will be compromised by the slower riders contributing less to that average speed. So, net effect, is average speed is a factor of how fast your weakest riders are.
Your logic only works if racing in a vacuum i'm afraid.

 

[thehog]

Re:

You're plain wrong and you've clearly never ridden a TTT either. You cannot ride faster than your weakest rider because if you do they get separated. Stronger riders and sacrificial riders will therefore do more work than the weaker riders to maintain a higher average speed into the wind. But, the payoff is they get less recovery as doing more work into the wind, so average speed will be compromised by the slower riders contributing less to that average speed. So, net effect, average speed is a factor of how fast your weakest riders are.
Your logic works if racing in a vacuum only.

I’ve ridden several and when I’m at the back of the group I’m going just as fast with less watts. I cannot believe that you can be this stupid with something so simple. The rest of your post is nonsense.

 

[samhocking]

Stop embarassing yourself. You are not racing in a vacuum hog. Any TTT squad will tell you this basic rule. 8 strong riders will ride a TT faster than 5 Strong riders and 3 weak riders sucking their wheels, because each of the 8 will get more recovery time than each of the 5. It's really basic Hog, honestly, just type 'TTT only as fast as the slowest rider' into google and there are hundreds of explanations, probably better at it than me from coaches, experts and probably Eurosport & BC videos etc.

 

[thehog]

Re:

Stop embarassing yourself. You are not racing in a vacuum hog. Any TTT squad will tell you this basic rule. 8 strong riders will ride a TT faster than 5 Strong riders and 3 weak riders sucking their wheels, because each of the 8 will get more recovery time than each of the 5. It's really basic Hog, honestly, just type 'TTT Only as strong as weakest rider' into google and there are hundreds of explanations, probably better at it than me from coaches, experts and probably Eurosport & BC videos etc.

Huh?

Two teams, one with 8 riders, one with 5 with each rider having exactly equal set of watts and time in each rotation. That would be the definition of a vacuum because you are placing each rider as equally strong and doing equal turns for the exact same length of time. That’s just silly.

 

[thehog]

And to prove my point there is an article on the very subject two days ago on Training Peaks:

https://www.trainingpeaks.com/blog/anatomy-of-a-team-time-trial/

In an individual Time Trial (TT) riders tend to target a steady pace at or around their Functional Threshold Power. But in a TTT, each rider will take turns pulling the group at significantly higher power for a short period of time.The goal is to keep the team’s speed consistent, but higher than any individual rider could ride alone.

Notably, at these speeds, the front rider will be pushing very high raw power, which means that their watts/kg will have a minimized impact. Disregarding aerodynamic differences for a second, on a flattish course, a smaller climber and large power TT rider have to push roughly the same power to maintain that speed when riding out front.

ie stronger than your weakest rider

 

[samhocking]

They have less recovery time and more work load though the greater number of weaker riders not contributing Hog. The weaker riders slow the faster riders because the faster riders have to do more work with less recovery out of the wind. More work less recovery is slower.

e.g

10 Strong riders cover 100 miles
Each strong rider does 1 mile on front, 9 miles recovering x 10 times

5 Strong rider + 5 Weak riders following strong riders in wheels over 100 miles
Each Strong rider has to do 2 miles on front with only 8 miles recovering x 10

Conclusion
10 strong riders had to ride less on front and got to recover more than the 5 Strong + 5 weak TTT group. Recovering for longer means average speed will be higher due to hitting the front of the line with more power. More power equals faster average speed as a unit collectively, all other factors like tactics and bike handling and aerodynamics ignored.

 

[thehog]

Re:

They have less recovery time and more work load though Hog. The weaker riders slow the faster riders because the faster riders have to do more work with less recovery out of the wind.

e.g

10 Strong riders cover 100 miles
Each stoing rider does 1 mile on front, 9 miles recovering x 10 times

5 Strong rider + 5 Week riders following strong riders wheels over 100 miles
Each Strong rider has to do 2 miles on front with only 8 miles recovering x 10

Conclusion
10 strong riders had to ride less on front and got to recover more than the 5 Strong + 5 weak TTT group.

Again, you didn’t bother to read the article and there are no articles on google “TTT only strong as weakest rider” like you stated.

Riders come in all shapes and izes and drag coefficient will be different for each team. Which is why BMC changed their rider sequence due to the wind direction.

Your example is stupid as your basing on all riders either equally strong or equally weak. It’s variable between each rider.

You cannot possibly be this blind.

 

[samhocking]

TT ability is always going to be variable between riders Hog even at pro level. The example was to simply show why 5 strong riders and 5 weak riders can only ride as fast as the 5 weak riders can keep up with due to workload and recover distribution along the course.

 

[macbindle]

And to prove my point there is an article on the very subject two days ago on Training Peaks:

https://www.trainingpeaks.com/blog/anatomy-of-a-team-time-trial/

In an individual Time Trial (TT) riders tend to target a steady pace at or around their Functional Threshold Power. But in a TTT, each rider will take turns pulling the group at significantly higher power for a short period of time.The goal is to keep the team’s speed consistent, but higher than any individual rider could ride alone.

Notably, at these speeds, the front rider will be pushing very high raw power, which means that their watts/kg will have a minimized impact. Disregarding aerodynamic differences for a second, on a flattish course, a smaller climber and large power TT rider have to push roughly the same power to maintain that speed when riding out front.

ie stronger than your weakest rider

Errr...No.

You haven't grasped what the article is saying. You are comparing the weakest rider in a TTT to same rider doing ITT.

Sam is talking about weakest rider in TTT compared to TTT group as a whole.

Really basic mistake on your part.

 

[Singer01]

Ignore the hog. Every single person knows what Sam is saying. The big question is why all the clinic acolytes never call out one of their own when they are talking utter horseshit.

 

[thehog]

And to prove my point there is an article on the very subject two days ago on Training Peaks:

https://www.trainingpeaks.com/blog/anatomy-of-a-team-time-trial/

In an individual Time Trial (TT) riders tend to target a steady pace at or around their Functional Threshold Power. But in a TTT, each rider will take turns pulling the group at significantly higher power for a short period of time.The goal is to keep the team’s speed consistent, but higher than any individual rider could ride alone.

Notably, at these speeds, the front rider will be pushing very high raw power, which means that their watts/kg will have a minimized impact. Disregarding aerodynamic differences for a second, on a flattish course, a smaller climber and large power TT rider have to push roughly the same power to maintain that speed when riding out front.

ie stronger than your weakest rider

Errr...No.

You haven't grasped what the article is saying. You are comparing the weakest rider in a TTT to same rider doing ITT.

Sam is talking about weakest rider in TTT compared to TTT group as a whole.

Really basic mistake on your part.

No, you didn’t bother to read the article either. Nor did Sam. His original statement was “a TTT can only be ridden at the speed of your 4th slowest rider regardless of who’s on the front”.

Which is plain wrong.

 

[samhocking]

I corrected that Hog to 5th rider, come on. Anyone that's ridden TTT or studied it a little will know what I mean. Team Sky could only ride at the speed their slowest riders. They finished with 5 so at the end they finished at a speed set off the 5th fastest rider, I thought they finished off their 4th fastest rider that's all. By having to keep up (in the wheels more) he is slowing the stronger riders down, therefore the team as a whole is riding at the pace dictated by the next slowest rider.