G.I. JOEEEEEE! [Tsunami of USADA cases against cyclists]

[forty four]

Bravo!!! Excellent post!!!

Every try listening to the apologists' litany of reasons why master's races are so hard?

1) Many used to be great Cat I riders in their youth.

2) They have disposable income for better equipment, personal trainers, and can afford to really hone their diet.

3) Yuppies are just hyper-competitive Type-A personalities who can transfer their success in the boardroom to success in athletics.

What I love are those fountain-of-youth renaissance stories where a guy in his late 30's-early 40's discovers cycling and from one year to the next loses weight and gains tremendous amounts of strength seemingly overnight, then arrogantly and self-righteously goes around telling people that it's because he works hard.

Yes, I too would be able to ride 200 miles a week, work a 60-hour a week job and maintain a family if I was jacked to the gills on 'roids every waking moment of my life.

yes im a cat3 in socal im 31 i often wonder about these master guys i see running around at group rides and races some are too strong all the time they dont peak always fast. its odd that more often than not masters 35+ is faster than cat 3 they dont race as far but still odd. anyways i train 200 a week or more when motivated and work 40 hours or more weekly mostly im just tired lol.

 

[Tubeless]

I'm a somewhat casual fan who reads CN a few times a week. What I don't understand is fans like you who are hellbent on driving every single sponsor out of the sport and killing it by demanding the exposure of every doper in history. You can keep sitting sitting around and having circle jerks about Cadel or whoever else you think is clean but I have news for you, there is no such thing as a clean grand tour GC contender and hasn't been since the early 90s or before from what I can tell. Exposing every doper will kill the sport. If the sport somehow survives the witch hunt the replacement riders will still dope, they will just find something new to beat the tests over and over.

Doping is more effective in cycling than any other sport so it can never be eradicated. Someone will always take the risk.

This type of attitude is shared by:

- cyclists who dope
- team managers who have dopers in their teams
- sport governing body officials who want a spectacle no matter what

And it is opposed by:

- cyclists who don't dope
- team managers who want their team to race clean
- anti-doping officials who're trying to keep things safe, level

With few exceptions, cycling fans are either ignorant of the doping, or are perfectly willing to believe that their favorite cyclist is clean, as they all deny the doping - even if others are shown to dope.

The general public believes whatever the press writes about (or what Phil Ligget and Paul Sherwan say) - perhaps this is the group you're worried about? This point may apply to Lance, but not to this group of lesser riders being exposed by USADA.

Is is a fair question to ask which group you belong to?

 

[joe_papp]

I usually read some of the info posted about me online - typically most of the (+) to neutral stuff but very little of the (-) anymore, since it's rarely constructive and usually is just sniping or personal attacking.

But, as always, thanks for those responsible for the former, while the sources for the latter...well, you're entitled to your opinions, too.

At the end of the day, doping is nasty, evil stuff. The fact that I was involved in it doesn't preclude me from speaking out against it now. In fact, I wish more former and current dopers would tell the world what they're going through and be honest about what they think they've gained by doping, but also what they can admit to themselves that they've lost.

Anyway, gotta run...the altitude is making me sleepy

 

[Stephen_M]

I think we can all speculate who Bob Sanders is a 'casual' fan of! It's just the progression of the same old mantra...

Never tested positive..
Never sanctioned for a non-negative sample..
Well, lets face it, the whole peleton was on something, so what's to gain from a witch-hunt now...
Just a waste of tex-payers dollars to investigate ancient history...
Your just scaring sponsors out of the sport and killing it for the next generation (of PED users)...

Apologies if I'm missed any off the list, but I haven't raised lots of money for cancer awareness and am therefore fallible!

I am also very much in favour of guys like Joe posting on this (and any other) forum - hate the sin, not the sinner.

My personal view is that cycling has to positively engage with riders who've been sanctioned to move forwards – there’s no learning if sanctioned riders are cast out of cycling and there’s certainly no incentive for anyone to come clean!

 

[Guttercat]

I usually read some of the info posted about me online - typically most of the (+) to neutral stuff but very little of the (-) anymore, since it's rarely constructive and usually is just sniping or personal attacking.

But, as always, thanks for those responsible for the former, while the sources for the latter...well, you're entitled to your opinions, too.

At the end of the day, doping is nasty, evil stuff. The fact that I was involved in it doesn't preclude me from speaking out against it now. In fact, I wish more former and current dopers would tell the world what they're going through and be honest about what they think they've gained by doping, but also what they can admit to themselves that they've lost.

Anyway, gotta run...the altitude is making me sleepy

Whoa. Just read your story Mr. Papp. I don't envy you the stress. I wish you the best in sorting it all out.

To think I've handled Epo/Aranesp almost daily, for years and years...I've always wondered how many of those in my line of work are "dealing" the stuff simply because we have such d@mn easy access to it.

The main reason (and there were a couple) I left racing back in the late 80's was because I had a reached a level of being "competitive" against the big dogs, but it soon became all too clear I would not beat them at their own game unless I acquiesced to the pressure of doping.

To this day I'm convinced it (doping) is the root cause of my best friend/racing buddy's death.

Evil stuff indeed.

Thanks for your insights.

 

[Polish]

Of course. They expected others to stick by the Omerta when they were doping, so they need to uphold the same standard and keep to it themselves. Nothing should change just because they were dumb enough (or excessive enough) to get caught.

I mean, it's one thing to be an openly clean cyclist (if such a thing exists) and that way your fellow competitors know what's up. But it's quite another to be a cheater who benefits from everyone keeping their mouth shut, and then once caught to not extend the same courtesy to others. It's dishonorable.

Yes, dishonorable. No honor to be seen lol.

And it is also very bad Customer Service.
No wonder Joe went out of business.

At the end of the day, doping is nasty, evil stuff.

No Joe, doping is not nasty, evil STUFF.

The "stuff", Modern Medical Wonder Drugs = lifesaving and good.

The ACTIONS of the cheaters and the dealers are not so good.

 

[Anonymous]

Yes, dishonorable. No honor to be seen lol.

And it is also very bad Customer Service.
No wonder Joe went out of business.



No Joe, doping is not nasty, evil STUFF.

The "stuff", Modern Medical Wonder Drugs = lifesaving and good.

The ACTIONS of the cheaters and the dealers are not so good.

Trying to re-define the term doping as it's used in cycling, are we?

Fail, one more time.

 

[Polish]

Trying to re-define the term doping as it's used in cycling, are we?

Fail, one more time.

I have always said that doping = fail.

"Doping" is a bad choice, a nasty action, a sad behavior.

But "doping" is not stuff.

EPO, HGH, and Gene Therapy are stuff.
Great discoveries.
Luckily, many people choose the medical field as a profession.
Not a level playing field there either.
Some incredibly awesome researchers and scientists make breakthroughs.
If your kids show scientific talent - encourage them!

 

[Guttercat]

I have always said that doping = fail.

"Doping" is a bad choice, a nasty action, a sad behavior.

But "doping" is not stuff.

EPO, HGH, and Gene Therapy are stuff.
Great discoveries.
Luckily, many people choose the medical field as a profession.
Not a level playing field there either.
Some incredibly awesome researchers and scientists make breakthroughs.
If your kids show scientific talent - encourage them!

You're just getting bogged down in semantics is all.

Joe_P wrote "Doping is nasty 'stuff'". Use of the word "doping" in his sentence is a verb, not a noun. Use of the word "stuff" in his sentence implies action as well.

Simply put it could be re-worded as such, "The act of using Epo, HGH for illicit purposes outside of the accepted medical use, is bad for you."

What you are both saying are different things altogether, and, they are both correct.

 

[BroDeal]

Back when I was racing Pro-Ams (clean) in the US, we had to go up against the various jacked Saturns and Navigators. Though I was unaware at the time.

Then I came to Europe, lost my innocence (not through dopng, but its reality in the sport) and then simply watched a former cancer patient crush the field in the hardest race in the world for nearly a decade. I imagine that this crop of masters cyclists "grew-up" in that era and so doping has become a "natural" fit.

And this is why Armstrong needs to be taken down. Anybody involved with the sport with more than two connected brain cells knows that Armstrong is the biggest doper of them all. Someone would have to be stupid beyond belief not to be able to figure it out. Armstrong set the example of how to wildy succeed in cycling. Allowing him to get away with it would give hope to others that they too will beat the system.

I think Operacion Papp is great. Something like this has been needed for a long time. I will laugh my ass off at the Masters exposed. The pros I can understand; to make a living, you gotta do what you gotta do. But the Masters are just pathetic and deserve to be held up as objects of ridicule.

It is upsetting that the USADA will operate in secret on this. It sounds like it might be too easy for those with legal resources to Weisel out the charges while those with less means get nailed. More transparency is needed.

 

[jimmypop]

I think Operacion Papp is great. Something like this has been needed for a long time. I will laugh my ass off at the Masters exposed. The pros I can understand; to make a living, you gotta do what you gotta do. But the Masters are just pathetic and deserve to be held up as objects of ridicule.

As someone said, plenty of older riders love to say that they "coulda' been a contender" if only they weren't building a career or family during their youth. Now, their ill-gained athletic glory is the only element propping up their otherwise hollow lives.

But, they'll be impotent soon enough, in more ways than one.

How embarrassing to get a knock on your door and explain to your wife and kids that you had to pee in a cup because you've been targeted for a OOC control?

Sadly, you're right - some of these masters are well-heeled and will lawyer up quickly. All the better, I say - let them lose even with a competent defense.

 

[Cobblestoned]

I usually read some of the info posted about me online - typically most of the (+) to neutral stuff but very little of the (-) anymore, since it's rarely constructive and usually is just sniping or personal attacking.

But, as always, thanks for those responsible for the former, while the sources for the latter...well, you're entitled to your opinions, too.

At the end of the day, doping is nasty, evil stuff. The fact that I was involved in it doesn't preclude me from speaking out against it now. In fact, I wish more former and current dopers would tell the world what they're going through and be honest about what they think they've gained by doping, but also what they can admit to themselves that they've lost.

Anyway, gotta run...the altitude is making me sleepy

I wished some people would come out and be "heroic" and honest BEFORE they get caught.
Too late for me.

PS:
End of month I will go on holidays to the country that is known as "the country, where Joe was caught"
Shall I greet someone ?
Merhaba

 

[Oldman]

And this is why Armstrong needs to be taken down. Anybody involved with the sport with more than two connected brain cells knows that Armstrong is the biggest doper of them all. Someone would have to be stupid beyond belief not to be able to figure it out. Armstrong set the example of how to wildy succeed in cycling. Allowing him to get away with it would give hope to others that they too will beat the system.

I think Operacion Papp is great. Something like this has been needed for a long time. I will laugh my ass off at the Masters exposed. The pros I can understand; to make a living, you gotta do what you gotta do. But the Masters are just pathetic and deserve to be held up as objects of ridicule.
It is upsetting that the USADA will operate in secret on this. It sounds like it might be too easy for those with legal resources to Weisel out the charges while those with less means get nailed. More transparency is needed.

Agreed-Alot of this started out of Weisel's own Master's racing (hiring Eddie B, etc). While it is pathetic it's possible that the Master's usage could pose a larger threat to young amateurs.

 

[smontrose]

I can only hope that a few from the midwest get popped....

 

[alberto.legstrong]

I'm a somewhat casual fan who reads CN a few times a week. What I don't understand is fans like you who are hellbent on driving every single sponsor out of the sport and killing it by demanding the exposure of every doper in history. You can keep sitting sitting around and having circle jerks about Cadel or whoever else you think is clean but I have news for you, there is no such thing as a clean grand tour GC contender and hasn't been since the early 90s or before from what I can tell. Exposing every doper will kill the sport. If the sport somehow survives the witch hunt the replacement riders will still dope, they will just find something new to beat the tests over and over.

Doping is more effective in cycling than any other sport so it can never be eradicated. Someone will always take the risk.

First off, I really hope you are out for the season. Take that as a compliment. I hate the Colts and both of the Manning's. BTW, can I get Peyton's autograph?

 

[PDXWheels]

I wished some people would come out and be "heroic" and honest BEFORE they get caught.

I don't think anyone really think of Floyd or Papp as 'heroic' for talking. But they are now doing a good thing. Even though they may have done bad things, good things and just normal things in the past, and will continue to do all types of things in the future.

Are they're motives pure? No. But that's just the way the world works. They did drugs when it benefited them and now they are spilling beans when it benefits them. Duh.

For those that have raced at a high level in the States, it'll be nice to see some of the a-holes go down.

 

[Cobblestoned]

I don't think anyone really think of Floyd or Papp as 'heroic' for talking. But they are now doing a good thing. Even though they may have done bad things, good things and just normal things in the past, and will continue to do all types of things in the future.

Are they're motives pure? No. But that's just the way the world works. They did drugs when it benefited them and now they are spilling beans when it benefits them. Duh.

For those that have raced at a high level in the States, it'll be nice to see some of the a-holes go down.

Thats part of the "job". You see this in the pro-peloton, too.
Like Jens's Scheiterhaufen-comment on Ullrich and 100 other examples of well played shocks of "(still) clean" riders .

Some riders could make it to Hollywood I think. There are no clean riders in high level racing. This door is shut forever without PED's.

 

[PDXWheels]

Thats part of the "job". You see this in the pro-peloton, too.
Like Jens's Scheiterhaufen-comment on Ullrich and 100 other examples of well played shocks of "(still) clean" riders .

But at least in Europe the sport is pretty well professionalized and you kind of expect to get everything that goes along with that. Though I'm sure that the lower levels, it's an ugly scene.

In Euro Pro racing, it's not the doping that bugs me, it's the corruption. That Lance gets to ride wherever he wants but Ullrich/Basso/Hamilton etc etc get raked through the coals.

In the States, it's a Pro/Am and you certainly don't NEED drugs to be successful. When you win an NRC race you beat 4-5 pro teams and about 100 amateurs in a parking lot. No respect for guys that need dope to do that.

 

[LanceInMyPants]

Joe Papp and all the other cynics

Ambrose Bierce, the great American writer defined cynic as, "a blackguard whose faulty vision sees things as they are, not as they ought to be. "

I'm constantly attacked by pollyanas for being a "cynic". When I quote Bierce to them, I usually get glassy eyed stares. "The truth will set you free" blah blah blah....

The reality in pro cycling is that the real "cynics" using the classic definition, " based on or reflecting a belief that human conduct is motivated primarily by self-interest" cheat, lie and steal to win races for money, fame and greed.

Thanks to Joe Papp and all you Bierce "cynics" on CN for writing about this depressing state of affairs. I keep coming back to this forum for your candor. It's annoying that the dopers have hijacked the sport of cycling. Keep on ranting about the way things really are. Maybe if you put enough heat on those *******s the sport will change, at least a little bit.

Oh, speaking of hijacking, what were we talking about on this thread? Maybe the cheating is unstoppable at the top of the sport (I hope not) but this tsunami of cases against national cyclists may begin to clean the sport from the bottom up. Sure hope so!

 

[spetsa]

In the States, it's a Pro/Am and you certainly don't NEED drugs to be successful. When you win an NRC race you beat 4-5 pro teams and about 100 amateurs in a parking lot. No respect for guys that need dope to do that.

You my friend have obviously not raced any NRC races. The only difference between many of them and Euro pro racing is the distance. But then again, I don't know you and maybe winning every week got boring so you just packed in and decided to become a DB instead.

 

[BikeCentric]

You my friend have obviously not raced any NRC races. The only difference between many of them and Euro pro racing is the distance.

I don't agree, but nevertheless you missed another glaring difference: the guys in Europe actually get paid while Stateside they are lucky to get a bike and a kit.

 

[Oldman]

I don't agree, but nevertheless you missed another glaring difference: the guys in Europe actually get paid while Stateside they are lucky to get a bike and a kit.

...which makes domestic American doping sad and especially so for Masters or Cat 3 amateurs looking for false bragging rights.

 

[stephens]

You'd certainly expect less doping in the amateur ranks. But I wonder if we shouldn't be surprised to see a lot of doping in the master's classes. At a certain age, there starts to be lots of medical intervention intended to make up for the declining physical abilities we had in our youth. And I'm talking about for everyone - athletes and couch potatoes alike.

I wonder if the pervasiveness of this in our society leads some master's riders to look differently at their doping than they might have when they were in their 20s. After all, in one's 20s at his physical peak, doping is clearly boosting one's ability past typical human capabilities: but doping in the 40s or 50s is seen as a replacement for abilities one has lost because of medical issues and/or aging (which is itself a medical issue, ha!). It must be tempting to seek medical help, for example, if one trains just as hard but gets slower because of declining hormone levels and the like.

I'm not a competitive racer, but at my age, I'd happily take any medicines my doctors see fit, in an attempt to make me feel more like I used to feel! I've already improved my vision and stepped up the asthma meds and if they'd offer me something to get my hematocrit back into the "normal" range, I'd take it without hesitation, just to improve the quality of my daily life. I wonder how many master's racers feel the same way and don't really see their "doping" as being about getting an unfair advantage against their competitors?

 

[alanshearer]

No, not at all. He is nowhere near that righteous. What he is is a guy that was worse than those he informed on (after all, he was a pusher!), and had no interest in solving crimes or cleaning up the sport until it became the only way to save his own ***.

Whatever Joe's motives for cooperating (whether it was just to save his own hide, whether he's conveniently making himself over as an anti-doping crusader because that's what he sees is in his future interests, or whether he's truly seen the light -- and I don't which is correct), it's a good thing that he cooperated. It's good that the supplier "sang." It's good that the customors got caught and will get sanctioned. For at least some of those inclined to dope, knowing that anyone might "snitch" will make them think twice.

I agree that what Joe did was worse than what at least some of his customers are being accused of. But that doesn't mean that he's not a reliable witness or that his customers should escape the consequences. And I suspect at the end of the day, USADA will also get back to Joe on this. He already has a 2-year suspension, and I think he now deserves a lifetime one. If there's any leniency to be had, it should be on the criminal side.

 

[biker98006]

Yes, I too would be able to ride 200 miles a week, work a 60-hour a week job and maintain a family if I was jacked to the gills on 'roids every waking moment of my life.[/QUOTE]


Too funny, you don't like the fact that some people like to participate in sports instead of watch it? Sounds like sour grapes, jealous of the guy committed and tough enough to compete. Line up or shut up but don't put down riders who are more motivated than you.