G.I. JOEEEEEE! [Tsunami of USADA cases against cyclists]

[Dr. Maserati]

Many on this thread have all but concluded that "the list" contains a bunch of names of masters riders. I would venture that it probably consist mostly of NRC pros and amateurs with just a couple of prominent masters.

I think the aforementioned conclusion is partly due to the fact that many here are indeed masters racers and would love to see that one dominating local guy that everyone hates show up on that list. I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but chances of that happening are very remote. He's still gonna show up and kick your behind next year. He's probably in the pain cave right now whilst everyone else is trolling the clinic looking for an excuse.

Not unreasonable as it was stated in the original Velonews article:

Anywhere from 15 to 25 masters, elite and pro cyclists have been notified of non-analytical violations as a result of having allegedly conspired with Papp, sources said.

 

[MarkvW]

Low "T" Anyone?

I got a huge kick out of the "low testosterone" ads during the Tour.

There is no hope of an even playing field for amateurs. There's not enough money in the sport to support an adequate testing establishment. As to the testosterone-enhanced:

I just hope their testicles shrink; that their wives get fed up with the roid rages and divorce them; that they get disfiguring zits; and that their pointy selfish heads get even more bald.

 

[kielbasa]

Where I live there are 2 really dominating local Masters and everyone loves them because they are really nice guys. I would hate it if they are on the list.

Regardless, I really don't like it when people try to draw jealousy and hard work into the doping discussion as you've done here. It merely obscures the issue. As we're all aware, all bike racers like to work hard as it's a prerequisite for the sport. Anyone who doesn't like to work hard chooses not to race. And the reality is that doping allows one to work more and work harder than they could clean, that's a big part of why it makes you faster. So while you might be jealous of dopers that win, it isn't fair for you to ascribe that to the forum as it's a silly generalization.

I'm not jealous, I'm pretty much retired from racing. I never valued winning bike races so highly as to stoop down to jealousy. I simply speculated as to why many here drew the conclusion that "the list" contains bunch of masters names and proceeded to tear them down (perhaps your post ought to be aimed at them?). It could just be one name for all we know.

 

[kielbasa]

Funny how when it comes to master's racing we have all these genetic freaks kicking mucho posterior in mass quantities, but over the last 15 years we haven't been able to send one pro to Europe who hasn't done well without doping.

And these master's racers-always hitting that genetic renaissance in their late 30s-early 40's...sort of like a rich white man's second puberty.

Quite the geographical and physiological oddities, I must say.

Must be that North American pain cave. ...:

I'm not one of those genetic freaks you speak of, but I did get better later in life and here's how I assess it.

I raced in the early 90's and I sucked. I took 10 years off and came back as a master's age racer. It took me couple of years to get up to speed, but I think that in the end (2009) I was better than when I was young. I actually won my first cat. 3 race as a master. I credit that to three things:

1. Still wanting to accomplish something before I got too old, so I was more motivated to train than previously. I don't know, perhaps I had to grow into the proper work ethic. And, I was gaining weight.

2. The internet has been invaluable in gaining knowledge on how to eat and train properly (power meters!). I spent several winters threshold training indoors, instead of taking time off and then doing lots of easy miles like the pros .

3. Greater financial means was helpful as I didn't have to budget for races and bike parts (power meters!). Even in the 90's I recall being envious of some older guys riding nice bikes, all the while I was riding on a 7-speed with downtube shifters.

Bottom line, let's not get too cynical. If this sounds in anyway close to your experience, you know why there are so many good masters out there. 40 is the new 30.

 

[kielbasa]

Not unreasonable as it was stated in the original Velonews article:

I would argue that it meant 15-25 (Masters + Pros + Amateurs), not (15-25 Masters) + Pros + Amateurs. I'm not claiming to know, just saying. Perhaps Joe P. could enlighten us as to what it meant?

 

[Dr. Maserati]

I would argue that it meant 15-25 (Masters + Pros + Amateurs), not (15-25 Masters) + Pros + Amateurs. I'm not claiming to know, just saying. Perhaps Joe P. could enlighten us as to what it meant?

I would agree - but I don't believe anyone stated what number of dopers from the masters class there might be.
All I have read is that some posters here feel that it is particularly pathetic and shameful for 'masters' to use PEDs.

No need for Joe to comment (&I doubt he could with his case pending) - it seems we will find out in due course.

 

[kielbasa]

I would agree - but I don't believe anyone stated what number of dopers from the masters class there might be.
All I have read is that some posters here feel that it is particularly pathetic and shameful for 'masters' to use PEDs.

No need for Joe to comment (&I doubt he could with his case pending) - it seems we will find out in due course.

Agreed. I'm just not ready to lump good masters as probable dopers and blame the popularity of the sport among them to the use of PEDs. That seems like a real witch hunt. I have heard Max Testa talk about a 50-60 year old test subject who could have been a Tour contender had he been aware of his talent at 20. It happens. Many talented guys get into the sport after kids have gone off to college. Sometimes I wonder if I couldn't be a pro golfer if I was in any way attracted to it.

 

[Anonymous]

A cyclingpeloton is an imaging of the society

What "ends" in the peloton grew up in our corrupt and cheating society and not on planet Mars.
You can find everything you need in a peloton.
Small people, tall people, straight people, gay people, small cheaters, big cheaters, playboys, adulterers, liars, honest people, faithful familyguys, lazy guys, hard working guys, dealers, dopers, psychos....

If society will ever get better (I doubt that 100%) - cycling will be cleaner, too

Believe that or not. Notice that or not. Think about it or not. Add that to your thoughts or not. - I don't care what you will do with that. I just say what I want to say, whenever or whereever I want.

Cheating is trend - everywhere and everytime.

No, cheating is an innate attribute to human beings. We all cheat in one way or the other, big or small. That is why any analogy to something outside of sport only serves to obscure the real issue: Doping in sport is excluded for the reasons I already stated.

 

[Ripper]

Oh my ****ing god ... the fun never ends, and the posts never stop!

 

[shawnrohrbach]

I'm not one of those genetic freaks you speak of, but I did get better later in life and here's how I asses it.

I raced in the early 90's and I sucked. I took 10 years off and came back as a master's age racer. It took me couple of years to get up to speed, but I think that in the end (2009) I was better than when I was young. I actually won my first cat. 3 race as a master. I credit that to three things:

1. Still wanting to accomplish something before I got too old, so I was more motivated to train than previously. I don't know, perhaps I had to grow into the proper work ethic. And, I was gaining weight.

2. The internet has been invaluable in gaining knowledge on how to eat and train properly (power meters!). I spent several winters threshold training indoors, instead of taking time off and then doing lots of easy miles like the pros .

3. Greater financial means was helpful as I didn't have to budget for races and bike parts (power meters!). Even in the 90's I recall being envious of some older guys riding nice bikes, all the while I was riding on a 7-speed with downtube shifters.

Bottom line, let's not get too cynical. If this sounds in anyway close to your experience, you know why there are so many good masters out there. 40 is the new 30.

This is a good post. I tried to race in my 20's and stuck at it for four years but also did not have the cash for bike, diet, training time etc. When I was 35 and making very good money I trained like a dog bought nice bikes and found it quite easy to ride every year solo from Seattle to Vancouver BC in a long day. I rode centuries quite easily. At 53 I can sit on my **** for a couple of months and get back up to form quickly. The only drug I've been known to take is too much scotch.

 

[Race Radio]

This might be bigger then just Joe's list. The rumor is that some of his customers were larger then they rest. They bought more then a normal consumer and were perhaps selling it to others.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Agreed. I'm just not ready to lump good masters as probable dopers and blame the popularity of the sport among them to the use of PEDs. That seems like a real witch hunt. I have heard Max Testa talk about a 50-60 year old test subject who could have been a Tour contender had he been aware of his talent at 20. It happens. Many talented guys get into the sport after kids have gone off to college. Sometimes I wonder if I couldn't be a pro golfer if I was in any way attracted to it.

Again we agree - and I believe you will find that no-one has done that.


It appears you are involved in the sport at this level - so you too can distinguish between someone who has always been 'solid' to someone who suddenly had their 'breakout year' (in their latter years) because they can afford better equipment.

 

[Berzin]

Bottom line, let's not get too cynical. If this sounds in anyway close to your experience, you know why there are so many good masters out there. 40 is the new 30.

Bottom line is, I feel the way I do about master's racing not from any cynical point of view or jealousy.

I feel the way I do from what I know. You can think whatever YOU want, but don't presume to tell others how to think just because you want to paint a picture that isn't so.

If 40 is the new 30, it's because of 'roids. Plain and simple. I have no vested interest in you wanting to fool yourself about it. It's your choice.

 

[Bob Sanders]

I don't give a SHI-ITE about the money men!

I care about the SPORT.

YOU sound like a non-racer.

And that will be there without sponsors! I don't give a damn if there was no "professional" cycling.

Expose ALL the cheats! Kick their arses!

I'm not a racer and never have been. I live in the US and the TDF is the only cycling available to me. All I want is to watch great athletes dueling it out in the mountains of France every July. It would be nice to have more televised here but sadly that hasn't happened. No offense but I could care less about anything in cycling below Pro-Conti level. I'm a fan, not a cyclist.

So we should just ignore it? Let the money of the sport rule who wins?
Insanity if you ask me, a sport where having the best money to create the best doping programme is more important than the actual riders.
And no I didnt watch the last few pharmstrong tour wins, I just couldn't stand it anymore. And watching Ricco and Kohl in the mountains made me turn of that tour as well. I am not saying the peleton is clean by any chance now, but it seems better than in a very long time, and we as fans should fight as hard as we can to make doping less and less in this faboulus sport. And it saddens me that some fans are actually ok with the doping because getting rid of it scares away the money.

If I thought doping could be stopped I would be fine with that. I'm not fine with a small number(people like Sentjens) getting caught and having their lives ruined while the rest continue to dope and get rich(or just make a living) off it. Ricco, Kohl and every other dip**** that got caught with CERA are an exception to that, were idiots and deserved it. That was amateur hour if I ever saw it. "Gee, there is a new version of EPO that stays in the bloodstream longer than normal EPO, no way they will ever be able to test for that."

How depressing.

I bet I enjoy watching the little cycling I get to watch every July more than you do. I've made a concerted effort to not get angry about things that don't affect me and this is a prime example. There can't be a more depressed and angry group on the internet than the posters in this forum.

Nah, his post is just a rumination by a fanboy who is in the anger stage of grief because he cannot accept the fact that he has supported the biggest fraud in sporting history. Its natural. He will progress along the path like so many others already have.

Obviously as an American who was 15 when Lance won his first Tour I was brought into watching by him. I didn't stop watching when he retired the first time and I won't stop this time. I'm under no illusions on whether he was clean, he wasn't. I just don't see how it helps the sport to drag him or anyone else down.

This type of attitude is shared by:

- cyclists who dope
- team managers who have dopers in their teams
- sport governing body officials who want a spectacle no matter what

And it is opposed by:

- cyclists who don't dope
- team managers who want their team to race clean
- anti-doping officials who're trying to keep things safe, level

With few exceptions, cycling fans are either ignorant of the doping, or are perfectly willing to believe that their favorite cyclist is clean, as they all deny the doping - even if others are shown to dope.

The general public believes whatever the press writes about (or what Phil Ligget and Paul Sherwan say) - perhaps this is the group you're worried about? This point may apply to Lance, but not to this group of lesser riders being exposed by USADA.

Is is a fair question to ask which group you belong to?

I'm my own group I guess, I know they dope and I still enjoy watching it. I have better things in my life to worry about. When I sit in front of my TV to watch any sport I am not going to devote my time to whether an athlete is taking PEDs.

I think we can all speculate who Bob Sanders is a 'casual' fan of! It's just the progression of the same old mantra...

Never tested positive..
Never sanctioned for a non-negative sample..
Well, lets face it, the whole peleton was on something, so what's to gain from a witch-hunt now...
Just a waste of tex-payers dollars to investigate ancient history...
Your just scaring sponsors out of the sport and killing it for the next generation (of PED users)...

I just enjoy the competition. I don't give a rat's *** if the sport is clean enough for you or clean at all for that matter. I just wanna see Andy and Alberto dueling it out on a mountain-top finish next July. Your ilk apparently wants to see them suspended and have newer, slightly less skilled dopers take their place. Forget women, the only thing needed for a Clinic poster to shoot his load is a wattage chart that appears to show that riders are getting slower.

First off, I really hope you are out for the season. Take that as a compliment. I hate the Colts and both of the Manning's. BTW, can I get Peyton's autograph?

I'm an Iowa fan, not necessarily a Colts fan although they do have 4 former Iowa players on the team and a former Iowa player as head coach. Bob is my favorite Iowa player ever. Too bad he gets injured constantly in the NFL.

 

[Anonymous]

Obviously as an American who was 15 when Lance won his first Tour I was brought into watching by him. I didn't stop watching when he retired the first time and I won't stop this time. I'm under no illusions on whether he was clean, he wasn't. I just don't see how it helps the sport to drag him or anyone else down.

Other statements you could make based on your logic:
I don't see how it helps politics to drag down politicians I liked and voted for who also broke the law.
I don't see how it helps society to drag down Jimmy the crack dealer, I knew him when I was 15 and I still think he is a great guy.
When I was 15, I knew Father Gauthe and I really enjoyed attending mass at his church. I just don't see how it helps society to drag him down for molesting children.

There is a difference between the issue of doping in sport, and crimes committed by an individual. You want to discuss them in the same context, and they are not.

If you like doping in sport, fine. That is a minority opinion, but you have the right to it.

If you don't like people you are fans of to be held accountable for their criminal actions (if there are criminal actions- and I don't know how you find out those things without an investigation), then you are a problem to civilized society. You don't want criminals prosecuted if you like them, and you don't favor criminal investigations into wrong doing.

This is not about sporting fraud, it is about criminal actions with the possibility of civil penalties also.

 

[stephens]

There is criminal, and then there is criminal. At the end of the day, this is still a bunch of guys riding bicycles. It's in no way necessary for life. It's just a giant advertising scheme for the sponsors. If they feel "cheated" sometimes, then who really cares? It simply does not rise to the level of politics or child abuse or whatever else you may posit. It's just a game. Full stop.

This is not to excuse it, but just an attempt to regain some perspective here. Nothing these riders have done should be seen as anything more serious than the football player who used his hand to score a goal, or the baseball pitcher who spit on the ball, or any other athlete who violated the rules of their sport in order to gain an advantage.

 

[Anonymous]

There is criminal, and then there is criminal. At the end of the day, this is still a bunch of guys riding bicycles. It's in no way necessary for life. It's just a giant advertising scheme for the sponsors. If they feel "cheated" sometimes, then who really cares? It simply does not rise to the level of politics or child abuse or whatever else you may posit. It's just a game. Full stop.

This is not to excuse it, but just an attempt to regain some perspective here. Nothing these riders have done should be seen as anything more serious than the football player who used his hand to score a goal, or the baseball pitcher who spit on the ball, or any other athlete who violated the rules of their sport in order to gain an advantage.

If LA pimped drug use to team mates that otherwise would have raced clean then that's criminal. If the pressure to dope meant keeping or losing your job then LA's a criminal.

You can dance all you like.

 

[indurain666]

Bravo!!! Excellent post!!!

Every try listening to the apologists' litany of reasons why master's races are so hard?

1) Many used to be great Cat I riders in their youth.

2) They have disposable income for better equipment, personal trainers, and can afford to really hone their diet.

3) Yuppies are just hyper-competitive Type-A personalities who can transfer their success in the boardroom to success in athletics.

What I love are those fountain-of-youth renaissance stories where a guy in his late 30's-early 40's discovers cycling and from one year to the next loses weight and gains tremendous amounts of strength seemingly overnight, then arrogantly and self-righteously goes around telling people that it's because he works hard.

Yes, I too would be able to ride 200 miles a week, work a 60-hour a week job and maintain a family if I was jacked to the gills on 'roids every waking moment of my life.

Hang on a second, while I do agree a lot of masters, elite amateurs and even juniors are major PED abusers (I know the scene quite well) not all of them are.

I know that if you remove PEDs from the masters racing scene you wouldn't see too many jacked 40-50s year olds juiced dudes beating your average local pro at Tuesday night crit. Nevertheless, I DO KNOW of great stories about guys with a full time job picking up cycling in their early thirties and become great athletes at age forty without the use of PEDs. Certainly not the guys that are winning these races.

 

[Anonymous]

Hang on a second, while I do agree a lot of masters, elite amateurs and even juniors are major PED abusers (I know the scene quite well) not all of them are.

I know that if you remove PEDs from the masters racing scene you wouldn't see too many jacked 40-50s year olds juiced dudes beating your average local pro at Tuesday night crit. Nevertheless, I DO KNOW of great stories about guys with a full time job picking up cycling in their early thirties and become great athletes at age forty without the use of PEDs. Certainly not the guys that are winning these races.

I don't think Berzin is talking about all masters racers. I know many talented guys that can still drill it.

I also have had conversations with guys bragging about being able to buy a months supply of EPO in Tijuana for $125. Were they using or just pujjing my leg? I don't have any way to know but I will maintain, if masters are using PEDs. there really is no excuse and may constitute the most epic fail in all amateur sports.

 

[Tubeless]

I'm not a racer and never have been. I live in the US and the TDF is the only cycling available to me. All I want is to watch great athletes dueling it out in the mountains of France every July. It would be nice to have more televised here but sadly that hasn't happened. No offense but I could care less about anything in cycling below Pro-Conti level. I'm a fan, not a cyclist.

If I thought doping could be stopped I would be fine with that. I'm not fine with a small number(people like Sentjens) getting caught and having their lives ruined while the rest continue to dope and get rich(or just make a living) off it. Ricco, Kohl and every other dip**** that got caught with CERA are an exception to that, were idiots and deserved it. That was amateur hour if I ever saw it. "Gee, there is a new version of EPO that stays in the bloodstream longer than normal EPO, no way they will ever be able to test for that."

I bet I enjoy watching the little cycling I get to watch every July more than you do. I've made a concerted effort to not get angry about things that don't affect me and this is a prime example. There can't be a more depressed and angry group on the internet than the posters in this forum.

Obviously as an American who was 15 when Lance won his first Tour I was brought into watching by him. I didn't stop watching when he retired the first time and I won't stop this time. I'm under no illusions on whether he was clean, he wasn't. I just don't see how it helps the sport to drag him or anyone else down.

I'm my own group I guess, I know they dope and I still enjoy watching it. I have better things in my life to worry about. When I sit in front of my TV to watch any sport I am not going to devote my time to whether an athlete is taking PEDs.

I just enjoy the competition. I don't give a rat's *** if the sport is clean enough for you or clean at all for that matter. I just wanna see Andy and Alberto dueling it out on a mountain-top finish next July. Your ilk apparently wants to see them suspended and have newer, slightly less skilled dopers take their place. Forget women, the only thing needed for a Clinic poster to shoot his load is a wattage chart that appears to show that riders are getting slower. (

Ok, you're 26, not a cyclist and watch one bike race per year - TdF. You state you don't care if riders dope. At 9 posts, you're new to the forum - it begs the question why are you even here?

You're saying that you have "made a concerted effort to not get angry about things that don't affect me and this is a prime example". You sure do come across as angry though in your post. Fair to say more angry than most?

And this particular thread is not even about Armstrong - it's about no-name domestic amateurs and masters riders getting caught. Why do you care?

 

[blutto]

I don't think Berzin is talking about all masters racers. I know many talented guys that can still drill it.

I also have had conversations with guys bragging about being able to buy a months supply of EPO in Tijuana for $125. Were they using or just pujjing my leg? I don't have any way to know but I will maintain, if masters are using PEDs. there really is no excuse and may constitute the most epic fail in all amateur sports.

...using(?)...pulling your leg(?)...or maybe he was simply psyching you out....

...when we were gold-bricking in the States way back when we used to use that schtick all the time...deadly effective if you play it right...

...that being said...of course some masters dope...I've been at this racing thing for 35 years and doping has always been there and it always will be...hell I've heard of hard-core tourists doping ( you know, in the interests of maintaining an idealized youthfulosity ) and they will kick your *** at the local crit ...the question is at what point do you rein in the "pur laine" attitude or will it always be all or nothing in all things...keep this running in the direction its running and we'll be burning witches soon....but of course only after we give them a fair trial...

Cheers

blutto

 

[Race Radio]

I'm not a racer and never have been. I live in the US and the TDF is the only cycling available to me. All I want is to watch great athletes dueling it out in the mountains of France every July. It would be nice to have more televised here but sadly that hasn't happened.

Most of the big classics are broadcast on Versus. Flanders, Paris Roubaix, Paris-Nice, LBL, Amstel. Universal sports had the Giro, Vuelta, MSR and more. Almost every day you can find links to live streams of bike races on http://www.cyclingfans.com

 

[Race Radio]

..keep this running in the direction its running and we'll be burning witches soon.

Burning witches implies that those that are people that are not guilty are being punished for a false, invented, charges.

What Witches have been burned so far? Are there any that are close?

 

[Cobblestoned]

Most of the big classics are broadcast on Versus. Flanders, Paris Roubaix, Paris-Nice, LBL, Amstel. Universal sports had the Giro, Vuelta, MSR and more. Almost every day you can find links to live streams of bike races on http://www.cyclingfans.com

Or http://www.steephill.tv/

Watch the classics and smaller tours, Bob Sanders !

You will be infected soon. TdF is only the ultimate showdown, but there are a lot of other races where great duelling happens.

 

[Bag_O_Wallet]

There is criminal, and then there is criminal. At the end of the day, this is still a bunch of guys riding bicycles. It's in no way necessary for life. It's just a giant advertising scheme for the sponsors. If they feel "cheated" sometimes, then who really cares? It simply does not rise to the level of politics or child abuse or whatever else you may posit. It's just a game. Full stop.

This is not to excuse it, but just an attempt to regain some perspective here. Nothing these riders have done should be seen as anything more serious than the football player who used his hand to score a goal, or the baseball pitcher who spit on the ball, or any other athlete who violated the rules of their sport in order to gain an advantage.

I think this limits perspective. It's not just a bunch of guys cheating at their chosen sport. The doping products don't just magically appear by way of some sort of Star Trek replicator. There would be a supporting cast of characters who violated various rules in order for a bunch of skinny folk in lycra to gain an advantage in bike races.