Geert Leinders

[Freddythefrog]

Please excuse this one post, off thread......

Just makes you wonder why now? The time would have been perfect ....... Britain's own Nicole Cooke, then .....they could have bought into almost instant success if they'd got the likes of Cooke and Pooley on board straight away. But they weren't interested. They were interested, however, in taking credit for Cooke's Olympic gold, as the Team Sky website showed at the very beginning, where they suggested she won gold because she wore a skinsuit, and this showed the benefits of Sky/Brailsford's marginal gains.

Yes, it was brand new and they invented it.

http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/photos/2000/oct00/worldroad/cookewin.shtml

Cooke was, according to one source close in at the BCF at the time, a complete pain as a first year Junior, even demanding that the Federation made for her a road skinsuit, like the one she wore for her club ! How dare she !

Have you ever been forced to work with a bunch of people who hold a set of values, many of which are almost directly opposed to those you hold ? Libertine you write some of the most informed posts on women's cycling on this site, but about this there could never be any doubt. The fault line was so deep that the Sky operation had to exclude Cooke. Cooke has now gone. Watch.

(To be honest the "marginal gains" team did claim the road skinsuit's first application for GB around 2004 as an homily for suggesting the lengths they went to researching the ideal support for Cooke. This was just another opportunity to spin the same lie to a new audience.)

 

[Franklin]

Why on earth would the Rabo management spill the dirt on Leinders, considering they were probably involved and managing a cover up?
Surely, they wouldn't be forthcoming?

Well, considering the published internal report and the open court case, it's clear that there wasn't much of a cover up. What happened is simply business as usual (which is just as weird and wrong).

But yeah, chances are they would have been pretty frugal with info.

And yet it's still extremely weird if they haven't uncovered this info themselves. You don't have to carry a tinfoil hat to at least look how the guy works with cycling stars. Rasmussen is to big a case not to be noticed. I found the relevant info in 10-15 minutes.

 

[martinvickers]

They wouldn't have to implicate themselves and it's not like Brailsford and Sky were worried about people with dodgy pasts anyway. Just look at who they hired!

Oh, of course, because when Leinders finds out his former charges have 'dobbed' him in prior to his interview with sky, he will feel no temptation, none I tell you, to tell Dave et all that the ex Rabo boys are doped like Snoop. Noooo, Geert would never do such a thing....

They rat Geert, he rats them. So they don't, and he doesn't. Simples.

 

[Mellow Velo]

Well, considering the published internal report and the open court case, it's clear that there wasn't much of a cover up. What happened is simply business as usual (which is just as weird and wrong).

But yeah, chances are they would have been pretty frugal with info.

And yet it's still extremely weird if they haven't uncovered this info themselves. You don't have to carry a tinfoil hat to at least look how the guy works with cycling stars. Rasmussen is to big a case not to be noticed. I found the relevant info in 10-15 minutes.

Normally I wouldn't recommend Google, or lurking in the Internet's darker places, when it comes to checking on perspective employees, but in the case of cycling's back room boys, it's probably the place to start.

Depending on the whiff, determines how much deeper to dig, or altogether discard.

Asking ex-employers who may, or may not be prepared to furnish a
full and frank reference, seems to carry the same pitfalls for which Sky are currently being held to account.

 

[Froome19]

I dont see a difference. Sky is more or less the elite road outfit of TeamGB.

What is sad is that they, Sky, dont have a women's team since they have the men's team and spend millions on it. That they couldn't put a Sky women's team out in the sport is pathetic.

I assume you are not having a go at Sky the Procycling team but rather Sky the company who would be the ones to push and fund a women's team?

I would agree that those of course there is a distinction between Sky and BC, there are closely connected. Staff sharing and all that. If there was a problem on the road it is likely it would be also be a problem on the track and vice versa.

 

[pmcg76]

Oh, of course, because when Leinders finds out his former charges have 'dobbed' him in prior to his interview with sky, he will feel no temptation, none I tell you, to tell Dave et all that the ex Rabo boys are doped like Snoop. Noooo, Geert would never do such a thing....

They rat Geert, he rats them. So they don't, and he doesn't. Simples.

How would Leinders know who dobbed him in if he wasn't given the job??? You really think SKY would say, oh Geert we didn't give you the job because Flecha, De Jongh & Hayman say you are a doping doctor!!! Come on, use some intelligence here, what company operates like that.

 

[Mellow Velo]

The Rabo management got rid of Leinders because of his involvement in doping. You don't think they could tell Brailsford confidentially in a private conversation that Leinders probably wasn't the right man for Sky if they really were committed to running a clean team?

Come on...

I think it's you that might want to come on.
A contrasting example of how Rabo is currently dealing with their old doping dilemmas:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/team-blanco-investigate-luis-leon-sanchezs-links-to-operacion-puerto

The Rabobank team admitted that Sanchez had worked with Dr. Ferrari but Sanchez had insisted that no doping was involved.

Were he at Sky, Lulu would have already been shown the door, albeit probably quietly, through the back one.
Hopefully, Team Blanco will be more than just a new name.

 

[sniper]

I think it's you that might want to come on.
A contrasting example of how Rabo is currently dealing with their old doping dilemmas:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/team-blanco-investigate-luis-leon-sanchezs-links-to-operacion-puerto



Were he at Sky, Lulu would have already been shown the door, albeit probably quietly, through the back one.
Hopefully, Team Blanco will be more than just a new name.

you're point re: LL is well taken. but what does it have to do with JRanton's point? nothing. JRanton's point remains. Unless you got wool pulled over your eyes, you're not gonna seriously believe that Brailsford didn't know exactly who Leinders was and what he'd done at Rabo.

 

[Franklin]

Normally I wouldn't recommend Google, or lurking in the Internet's darker places, when it comes to checking on perspective employees, but in the case of cycling's back room boys, it's probably the place to start.

You know as well as I do that posted major newspaper articles and court papers. Yeah, found by Google, but it's hardly as if I used a clinic thread as evidence.

 

[Benotti69]

Normally I wouldn't recommend Google, or lurking in the Internet's darker places, when it comes to checking on perspective employees, but in the case of cycling's back room boys, it's probably the place to start.

Depending on the whiff, determines how much deeper to dig, or altogether discard.

Asking ex-employers who may, or may not be prepared to furnish a
full and frank reference, seems to carry the same pitfalls for which Sky are currently being held to account.

the Pro peloton is a very small group of people.

I think it is not too hard to find out what it is you want to know.

Look how easy it is for riders to change doping doctors.

 

[Joachim]

Not read Jeremy Roy's blog?

In this day and age, riders don't go around telling each other what drugs they've done.

If you read Hamiltons book he talks about how even 10 years ago the inner core of Postal, the A team, didn't openly discuss with other teammates what they were up to.

 

[coinneach]

I won't quite quote my own older post, BUT, I will repeat it in another way.

The problem Sky/BC?Brailsford had is that they were victims of their own success; and that boiled down to thinking that Peters could sort anything......if he could get Pendelton to gold, he must be a magician!

BUT, he screwed up....doctors assessing doctors....not a good idea

Their fault, but a consequence of success, and no sinister intent.

And no one has replied to my earlier point...IF sky wanted to set up a team wide doping programme, would you only employ Leinders for 80 days/year, of which 60 were apparently at various races?

 

[Dr. Maserati]

I think it's you that might want to come on.
A contrasting example of how Rabo is currently dealing with their old doping dilemmas:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/team-blanco-investigate-luis-leon-sanchezs-links-to-operacion-puerto



Were he at Sky, Lulu would have already been shown the door, albeit probably quietly, through the back one.
Hopefully, Team Blanco will be more than just a new name.

Sky hired Rogers who acknowledged going to Ferrari - and when Barry was outted by Landis Sky said they would investigate yet kept him on.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

I won't quite quote my own older post, BUT, I will repeat it in another way.

The problem Sky/BC?Brailsford had is that they were victims of their own success; and that boiled down to thinking that Peters could sort anything......if he could get Pendelton to gold, he must be a magician!

BUT, he screwed up....doctors assessing doctors....not a good idea

Their fault, but a consequence of success, and no sinister intent.

And no one has replied to my earlier point...IF sky wanted to set up a team wide doping programme, would you only employ Leinders for 80 days/year, of which 60 were apparently at various races?

Quite frankly, thats a bit of a strawman - let me throw an out a different rhetorical;
"if sky wanted to set up a clean team would you employ a Doctor with a doping history for 80 days/year, of which 60 were apparently at various races?"

 

[Big Doopie]

the hiring of leinders by sky is a black mark. period.

does it mean sky is doped?

idk.

but does it make them suspect?

absolutely. and to think not is to expect people to ignore what has happened in the past 20 years.

sky will have to earn the public's confidence.

even if they are as clean as can be, that process will take time.

 

[ebandit]

straw

Quite frankly, thats a bit of a strawman - let me throw an out a different rhetorical;
"if sky wanted to set up a clean team would you employ a Doctor with a doping history for 80 days/year, of which 60 were apparently at various races?"

but if team sky were running a 'systematic team wide doping programme' given their budget would it not be wise to employ leinders all year

with such sensitive information unquestioned loyalty would be of paramount
importance

 

[Dr. Maserati]

but if team sky were running a 'systematic team wide doping programme' given their budget would it not be wise to employ leinders all year

with such sensitive information unquestioned loyalty would be of paramount
importance

See, the strawman is saying a 'systematic team wide doping programme'.
My own opinion is that few if any teams do that anymore.

Not discussing Sky here, but I suspect that some teams have a few fairly hardcore guys sourcing their own doping, the teams then have an 'experienced' Doc on hand to administer some lighter products and make sure they are no doping related health issues.
Leinders appears to fit that role.

 

[ebandit]

systematic

See, the strawman is saying a 'systematic team wide doping programme'.
My own opinion is that few if any teams do that anymore.

Not discussing Sky here, but I suspect that some teams have a few fairly hardcore guys sourcing their own doping, the teams then have an 'experienced' Doc on hand to administer some lighter products and make sure they are no doping related health issues.
Leinders appears to fit that role.

'systematic etc' ........not my words but what's used within the clinic

but the question remains.........if a doctor is looking after a teams riders
doping the team would surely secure the doctors total time and
undivided loyalty

 

[sniper]

but if team sky were running a 'systematic team wide doping programme' given their budget would it not be wise to employ leinders all year

with such sensitive information unquestioned loyalty would be of paramount
importance

if leinders was hired for the reasons brailsford says he was, wouldn't it be wise to employ leinders all year?

 

[Joachim]

Nope. You don't need a race doctor when there aren't any races.

They must have had somebody else drawing the blood off in the off season

 

[sniper]

Re-reading this article on Txema Gonzalez' death and Sky's stomache infection, it very much reminded me of PDM's intralipid affair.

It still very much has the taste of a failed blooddoping experiment.

Nicely fits in with the (albeit unproven) hypothesis that Brailsford knew what he was looking for when he hired Leinders. And I'm not talking about a saddle sore specialist.

 

[Joachim]

Maybe. Maybe not. I certainly don't know.

The only point I'd make about Leinders is that both sides of the argument as to his appointment are equally compelling. I really don't think there is anywhere to go with this until we get more information.

We may never.

 

[sniper]

Maybe. Maybe not. I certainly don't know.

The only point I'd make about Leinders is that both sides of the argument as to his appointment are equally compelling. I really don't think there is anywhere to go with this until we get more information.

We may never.

once you take the history of cycling into consideration (which you hardly ever do), one side of the story becomes rather unconvincing.
so no, both sides of the story aren't equally compelling.

 

[bianchigirl]

Re-reading this article on Txema Gonzalez' death and Sky's stomache infection, it very much reminded me of PDM's intralipid affair.

It still very much has the taste of a failed blooddoping experiment.

Nicely fits in with the (albeit unproven) hypothesis that Brailsford knew what he was looking for when he hired Leinders. And I'm not talking about a saddle sore specialist.

Bingo, if you know anything about the history of the sport it had PDM written all over it

 

[xcleigh]

Re-reading this article on Txema Gonzalez' death and Sky's stomache infection, it very much reminded me of PDM's intralipid affair.

It still very much has the taste of a failed blooddoping experiment.

Nicely fits in with the (albeit unproven) hypothesis that Brailsford knew what he was looking for when he hired Leinders. And I'm not talking about a saddle sore specialist.

Sorry, just to clarify, but are you suggesting that the the team soigneur was experimenting with blood doping as well as the riders? Is that what happened with PDM?