Geert Leinders

[ChewbaccaD]

i realize you're half joking but yes, why weren't Sky riders called to testify?
urgent question me thinks.

You can't get someone to testify if you have no way of punishing them if they don't, or they aren't willing. Also, even if they did, I don't see a rider from the "New clean generation" with no formal suspicion upon them doing anything but lying anyway. I feel pretty certain that you're not going to get a Sky rider to flip.

 

[D-Queued]

You can't get someone to testify if you have no way of punishing them if they don't, or they aren't willing. Also, even if they did, I don't see a rider from the "New clean generation" with no formal suspicion upon them doing anything but lying anyway. I feel pretty certain that you're not going to get a Sky rider to flip.

But you can expect them to make really stupid public statements.

Dave.

 

[ebandit]

let's keep it real

i realize youm ebandit and others want it all shoved under the carpet, but normally, if you track down a criminal for crimes committed in period X, you'd also be interested in knowing whether he committed any crimes in the period following X.

no my wish is to know the truth as much as anyone else.........................

however my post was poking fun at your suggestion that sky riders should

be 'interrogated'................i notice that in later posts you change this to

a more resonable 'sky riders should be requested to testify'

however it would be resonable to expect that ALL other riders on teams

with doping links should do similar......so that's rather unlikely

Mark L

 

[Benotti69]

irishtimes podcast

"Sky fall, deflategate and how to cheat......
When Team Sky came onto the world cycling scene they were more than happy to portray themselves as 'cleaner than clean'. On the day former Sky team doctor Geert Leinders is banned for life by the Anti-Doping Agencies of the USA, Denmark and the Netherlands, we ask what damage this will do to their reputation."

Sponsored by Rabobank, RaboDirect 'The Straight talking savings bank'(no joke)

https://soundcloud.com/secondcaptains-it-com/cheating-special-leinders-team-sky-russia-belichick

 

[MarkvW]

Gag me with a spoon.

Best fanboy crap in years.

Armstrong never knew an ethical constraint. Ever.

Dave.

You make me laugh with your hypocrisy. Go ahead and pretend that USPS was unique. But that is just a lie. It was just better at combining cheating, training, and racing than all the other cheats.

And I'm not asserting that Armstrong was in any way a good person, or had any ethical constraints to begin with. You might be right about that. I haven't studied his childhood, like you apparently have. I'm only making the point that he was the perfect pupil for Ferrari. Something, that Eddy Merckx could see, but perhaps you can't.

 

[DirtyWorks]

Cookson has said in the past to his credit, that if anyone has anything against Zorzoli to speak up. I think at least the Froome case brought in the committee process that deals with exceptional TUE cases to the routine ones too, so at least Zorzoli can't be seen to be acting alone anymore.

I need a link to this too.

It's simply not a matter of some damning infraction against Zorzoli. Zorzoli is a part of the system that enables doping. Apparently going forward, it will be a committee including Zorzoli issuing backdated TUE's to favored riders.

It's a great system for managing doping and by extension, podiums.

 

[Dazed and Confused]

irishtimes podcast

"Sky fall, deflategate and how to cheat......
When Team Sky came onto the world cycling scene they were more than happy to portray themselves as 'cleaner than clean'. On the day former Sky team doctor Geert Leinders is banned for life by the Anti-Doping Agencies of the USA, Denmark and the Netherlands, we ask what damage this will do to their reputation."

Sponsored by Rabobank, RaboDirect 'The Straight talking savings bank'(no joke)

https://soundcloud.com/secondcaptains-it-com/cheating-special-leinders-team-sky-russia-belichick

Love it, thanks.

 

[thehog]

Have the UCI ratified the ban?

 

[sniper]

Have the UCI ratified the ban?

good question.

and now tell me Cookson's son working for Sky isn't a massive conflict of interest.
Imagine you working for Cookson's administration, how would you go about telling Cookson the Sky-Leinders-Zorzoli triangle really needs to be investigated...
You wouldn't.

 

[Samson777]

http://sporten.tv2.dk/cykling/2015-01-22-michael-rasmussen-foeler-med-dopinglaege

The chicken feels a bit bad for Leinders, since he just did what everybody else did. But otherwise he's glad if his information can help pro cycling to move in another direction..

 

[D-Queued]

You make me laugh with your hypocrisy. Go ahead and pretend that USPS was unique. But that is just a lie. It was just better at combining cheating, training, and racing than all the other cheats.

And I'm not asserting that Armstrong was in any way a good person, or had any ethical constraints to begin with. You might be right about that. I haven't studied his childhood, like you apparently have. I'm only making the point that he was the perfect pupil for Ferrari. Something, that Eddy Merckx could see, but perhaps you can't.

USPS was unique. Even in such a heavily polluted ecosystem they stand out.

A donkey unbridled in his pursuit to become a racehorse, he was the perfect partner for Ferrari.

Who else had six EPO positives from 1999? Unique.
Who else donated cash to the UCI's anti-doping program? Unique.
Who else tried to buy the TdF with Verbruggen? Unique.
Who else 'won' seven straight? Unique.
Who else took out multiple (and escalating) insurance policies? Unique.
Who else rigged the results to cash-in on the insurance policies? Unique.
Who else was a team owner? Unique.
Who else removed the anti-doping clause from their rider contract? Unique.
Who else faked an hour record pursuit (and implemented other major deceptions) to hide their doping? Unique.

We could go on.

You may have missed the 2000's, but Armstrong wasn't just one of the guys.

Dave.

 

[thehog]

good question.

and now tell me Cookson's son working for Sky isn't a massive conflict of interest.
Imagine you working for Cookson's administration, how would you go about telling Cookson the Sky-Leinders-Zorzoli triangle really needs to be investigated...
You wouldn't.

Maybe the UCI are scared to ratify the ban?

 

[Catwhoorg]

good question.

and now tell me Cookson's son working for Sky isn't a massive conflict of interest.
Imagine you working for Cookson's administration, how would you go about telling Cookson the Sky-Leinders-Zorzoli triangle really needs to be investigated...
You wouldn't.

I will tell you Cookson's son working for Sky is not greater a conflict of interest than the fact that he a DB have worked side by side for so many years.

 

[bobbins]

I need a link to this too.

It's simply not a matter of some damning infraction against Zorzoli. Zorzoli is a part of the system that enables doping. Apparently going forward, it will be a committee including Zorzoli issuing backdated TUE's to favored riders.

It's a great system for managing doping and by extension, podiums.

It keeps the dirt hidden and keeps big sponsors (Sky) in the sport.

Scandals scare money away.

Zorzolli saved at least one big new sponsor an embarrassing positive in their early days in the sport.

 

[MarkvW]

USPS was unique. Even in such a heavily polluted ecosystem they stand out.

A donkey unbridled in his pursuit to become a racehorse, he was the perfect partner for Ferrari.

Who else had six EPO positives from 1999? Unique.
Who else donated cash to the UCI's anti-doping program? Unique.
Who else tried to buy the TdF with Verbruggen? Unique.
Who else 'won' seven straight? Unique.
Who else took out multiple (and escalating) insurance policies? Unique.
Who else rigged the results to cash-in on the insurance policies? Unique.
Who else was a team owner? Unique.
Who else removed the anti-doping clause from their rider contract? Unique.
Who else faked an hour record pursuit (and implemented other major deceptions) to hide their doping? Unique.

We could go on.

You may have missed the 2000's, but Armstrong wasn't just one of the guys.

Dave.

You're making me laugh. It was a fluke that Armstrong got caught. But for Floyd turning--something Lance could have avoided with just a modicum of decency--the USPS corruption would never have been established.

Now, you're taking the 'never tested positive' mantra and applying it to the rest of the peloton, like Rabobank. I'm enjoying your hypocrisy.

If you want to minimize the organized systemic doping of other teams on the peloton (Rabo, Gerolsteiner, Liberty Seguros, Phonak, and Lampre come immediately to mind), then you are just arguing that these other guys are not so bad because Lance was worse.

Your issue isn't about responsibility or fault in the context of cycling performance. Your response is emotional.

 

[IzzyStradlin]

these other guys are not so bad

Where did anyone ever say this?

because Lance was worse.

He pretty much definitely was. He won more, made more money and ruined more careers than anyone else. That is worse.

 

[MarkvW]

Where did anyone ever say this?


He pretty much definitely was. He won more, made more money and ruined more careers than anyone else. That is worse.

Dave isn't arguing that USPS was worse than Rabo, he's arguing that USPS was unique. That's ridiculous.

I don't think that being a more successful cheat is "worse" than being an unsuccessful cheat. The moral offense is the same.

And as far as "ruining careers" goes, that is bad--but it didn't make him go faster on the bike.

 

[Franklin]

Mark has a point. How the hell do we know USPS was unique, besides winning 7 times?

For all we know this has been going on for 25 years with different "Lances*" at the top of the sport during their time at the limelight. Heck, who knows what was going on at the classics with Mapei.


*Yes, Lance character and persona are of course unique. Talking about the corruption/level of dope here.

 

[webvan]

Wow, this is having pretty big ramifications, Zorzoli all but gone...http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/uci-suspends-zorzoli-from-anti-doping-work - what I don't understand is why Rasmussen became "unprotected" in 2007 ? Was there some infighting at the UCI that prevented Zorzoli from sweeping the "no shows" under the carpet?

 

[ChewbaccaD]

Mark has a point. How the hell do we know USPS was unique, besides winning 7 times?

For all we know this has been going on for 25 years with different "Lances*" at the top of the sport during their time at the limelight. Heck, who knows what was going on at the classics with Mapei.


*Yes, Lance character and persona are of course unique. Talking about the corruption/level of dope here.

I think an argument can be made that the unique character of Lance was his hero status in the US, and the fact that, until that point, the US was an almost untapped resource for capital for cycling and the UCI.

He was a cash cow like no other, and one has to question the reasoning power of anyone who overlooks that.

Certain posters tend to overlook simple concepts when it comes to assessing their heroes. I think we have seen plenty of that today.

 

[ChewbaccaD]

Wow, this is having pretty big ramifications, Zorzoli all but gone...http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/uci-suspends-zorzoli-from-anti-doping-work - what I don't understand is why Rasmussen became "unprotected" in 2007 ? Was there some infighting at the UCI that prevented Zorzoli from sweeping the "no shows" under the carpet?

Damn that Travis Tygart!!!...so focused on Lance only, that people like Leinders and Zorzoli keep flying under the radar...oh wait...I wonder if any of those people who are cheering today's effort of (primarily) the USADA understand just how exposed they are?

...but they got someone associated with Sky, so that gives ole' Travis a pass for today I guess...

 

[Dazed and Confused]

Rasmussen was never protected.
He was never destined to win anything big.
Another Danish Tour winner?
No money....

 

[MarkvW]

Rasmussen was never protected.
He was never destined to win anything big.
Another Danish Tour winner?
No money....

I don't think that was a function of the team management. I think Rabobank itself blew Rasmussen up because they wanted to do public relations damage control.

 

[webvan]

How about reading the article I took the time to link and that has direct quotes, the "butter", the "most protected", etc...

 

[Dazed and Confused]

I don't think that was a function of the team management. I think Rabobank itself blew Rasmussen up because they wanted to do public relations damage control.

Again Rasmussen was never destined to win anything big.
When he suddenly looked like becoming a major star based on a doping program he found himself without serious friends.

ASO not interested
Rabobank wasn't really that interested
UCI not interested

Only Denmark (not all parties) and some fans were interested.

No money and powerful people thought it was better to get rid of him.

I wonder if they regret some of these decisions today.