Giuseppe Martinelli: Contador already better than Armstrong (and Indurain)

[Parrulo]

 

[usedtobefast]

Seven consecutive TdF wins for Armstrong places him miles ahead of Contador. Even participating in the most important bike race in the world 7 times in a row is difficult.

Alberto has a ways to go yet.

 

[c&cfan]

Was such harshness actually necessary? You could have simply overlooked the post entirely instead of being so insulting.

well...that was the last one that i read before posting. maybe I was wrong, but there's also a limit in other things besides harshness.

 

[c&cfan]

was that because of my post???

 

[Parrulo]

was that because of my post???

ofc not. just loving the amount of hate on this thread

 

[La Pandera]

Martinelli's experience in managing both Pantani and Contador in his career gives him an interesting and quite unique perspective on 2 of the sport's most intriguing exciting riders. I think he, myself and many of us are riding the wave of euphoria from Contador's perfomance on Mt. Etna. It isn't often that a performance leaves me in awe but in Contador's case it was really just a reminder of what he is capable of when he has good form and motivation.

I can understand the perspective of those that are bored by Contador's continued superiority in the grand tours but myself being one that loves any race that goes up, ends up at the top of a mountain/steep hill and those riders that excell at that discipline, seeing the reigning best climber in the world doing what he does best is for me what this sport is all about.

Contador stated in a recent interview that he loves to compete and that he rides for the fans, so for him to show up for a race it has come to be an expectation that you are going to see him making his presence known at the least, never simply making an appearance and riding along anonymously in the pack. In this way he is far superior to Armstrong and his record as it compares to Armstrong's at the same age shows that. As was posted earlier, should he avoid injury he should collect such an impressive resume that he has to be mentioned as one of the all time greats.

A statement was made about his lack of dominance in his victories but couldn't that be a reflection of his opponent's worth and not a necessarily a negative reflection on him? Contrary to the insistence of lack of dominance is his performance in the 2009 Tour which for some odd reason is conveniently forgotten.

 

[Cobblestoned]

+1000
well written & explained.
I still think Contador is better than LA-not due to the bulk of GT titles, but as the rider's attitude towards cycling in its entire definition. LA should have explored more other races apart from the Tour to have earned more respect in the Cycling History, but we already know why he didn't-whereas Contador brings to new generations that almost forgotten notion of being a champion in all kinds terrains & races throughout the year's calender-and that is more promising than a 7 tours titles alone.

as you wisely said- Martinelli should have thought about Hinault & Coppi-and I'm adding Anquetil too- way before he gets to Merckx

NO, -1001
I already told him.

To the bolded part:

What are you talking about ? I think you need some education, too, or open your eyes.
You're still in the "only Tour and 3 weeks a year" cult ?
It's impressive how people just ignore Lance full calendar and palmares. lol
They really just ignore. Ok, he didn't ride the whole season, but man, this whole myth is really getting old.

And you even try to tell us that Contador and others mean "the new generation that races whole year, champions on any terrains and full season everything fullgas" ? lol
Where/When did that happen ? Thats really the highlight so far.

Because Alberto won or competed in some half****ty early season stageraces ? (some that Lance actually won, too, or at least won stages and TdS + 2*DL on top)

Dude, sort your facts before next time and take off the blinders.

 

[El Pistolero]

NO, -1001
I already told him.

To the bolded part:

What are you talking about ? I think you need some education, too, or open your eyes.
You're still in the "only Tour and 3 weeks a year" cult ?
It's impressive how people just ignore Lance full calendar and palmares. lol
They really just ignore. Ok, he didn't ride the whole season, but man, this whole myth is really getting old.

And you even try to tell us that Contador and others mean "the new generation that races whole year, champions on any terrains and full season everything fullgas" ? lol
Where/When did that happen ? Thats really the highlight so far.

Because Alberto won or competed in some half****ty early season stageraces ? (some that Lance actually won, too, or at least won stages and TdS + 2*DL on top)

Dude, sort your facts before next time and take off the blinders.

Setmana Catalana
Winner overall classification
Winner combination classification
1st, Stage 3
Tour de Romandie
4th Overall classification
1st, Stage 4
Tour de Suisse
1st, Stage 8
Tour de Romandie
2nd Overall classification
1st, Stage 3
Vuelta a Castilla y León
Winner overall classification
Winner combination classification
Winner Spanish rider classification
1st, Stage 4
Paris–Nice
Winner overall classification
Winner young rider classification
1st, Stage 4
1st, Stage 7
Vuelta a Castilla y León
Winner overall classification
Winner combination classification
Winner Spanish rider classification
1st, Stage 1 (ITT)
1st, Stage 4
Vuelta al País Vasco
Winner overall classification
1st Stage 1
1st Stage 6 (ITT)
Volta ao Algarve
Winner overall classification
1st, Stage 4 (ITT)
Paris–Nice
4th overall classification
1st, Stage 1 (ITT)
1st, Stage 6
Vuelta al País Vasco
Winner overall classification
1st, Stage 3
1st, Stage 6 (ITT)
Dauphiné Libéré
3rd overall classification
Volta ao Algarve
Winner overall classification
1st, Stage 3
Paris–Nice
Winner overall classification
1st, Stage 4
Vuelta a Castilla y León
Winner overall classification
Winner combination classification
Winner Spanish rider classification
1st, Stage 4 (ITT)
Critérium du Dauphiné
2nd, overall classification
Winner points classification
1st, Prologue (ITT)
1st, Stage 6
Vuelta a Murcia
Winner overall classification
Winner points classification
1st, Stage 2
1st, Stage 3 (ITT)
Volta a Catalunya
Winner overall classification
1st, Stage 3

VERSUS

1st Overall Tour de Suisse
1st Stage 1
1st Stage 8
1st Overall Critérium du Dauphiné Libéré
1st Stage 6
1st Overall GP du Midi Libre
1st Overall Critérium du Dauphiné Libéré
1st Stage 3 ITT
1st Overall Tour de Georgia
1st Stage 3
1st Stage 4

Come'on now... Armstrong first career can be ignored actually since we're talking about the GT contender Armstrong. When Armstrong was riding for the Tour de France win it's practically the only thing he ever did in a season.

 

[Cobblestoned]

posts like this one are garbage. you don't make sense in a single sentence, how's that possible?
--------------------------

hitch, I am really disappointed with your first post.

Contador, Armstrong, Indurain are all better athletes than merckx ever was. this isn't taste or like\hate, this is a fact. in merckx time, 5 pros vs amateurs, where the best was the winner in every race\stage. that's it. that will never happen again, just like we will never live like monkeys again. that's nothing to do with one's talent...

however merckx was, most likely, the sport's biggest selling product, the sport's biggest image, an hard man wining after huge physical efforts.

Hi again, Mr C&C
Successfull day for Port(o)ugal I guess.
Hey, that bolded up there, that is going full *** again.
Just a hint. Never go full ***.
Never doubt Eddy. Never critizise Eddy. Eddy is always right ! Praise Eddy or just admire ! Eddy = GOD
You understand this ?
You can't do this. This is like doubting Beckenbauer in soccer. Never doubt Beckenbauer or Merckx. Never go full ***.

 

[Cobblestoned]

Come'on now...

Yeah, really El Waterpistol.

I mean, You can't mean that post serious, accurate or fair or whatever, can you ?
Oh dear. Now it all makes sense.

 

[Parrulo]

also we should take into account that TdS and the DL are races used as prep for the tour.

oh wait a sec lance won the tour of georgia and the GP midi libre. . . . that changes everything

 

[La Pandera]

NO, -1001
I already told him.

To the bolded part:

What are you talking about ? I think you need some education, too, or open your eyes.
You're still in the "only Tour and 3 weeks a year" cult ?
It's impressive how people just ignore Lance full calendar and palmares. lol
They really just ignore. Ok, he didn't ride the whole season, but man, this whole myth is really getting old.

And you even try to tell us that Contador and others mean "the new generation that races whole year, champions on any terrains and full season everything fullgas" ? lol
Where/When did that happen ? Thats really the highlight so far.

Because Alberto won or competed in some half****ty early season stageraces ? (some that Lance actually won, too, or at least won stages and TdS + 2*DL on top)

Dude, sort your facts before next time and take off the blinders.

You already told who? The post that he was responding to (quoted) was by Angliru. I don't see a response by you since that original post appeared.

From reading that original post I don't see what/who your anger is directed at
since it seems to state that we should wait till Contador career is complete before we make comparisons.

I personally think he is already one of the sport's greatest riders and he is only 28. He has years to add to an already impressive palmares.

You call it "Lance's full calender". Aside from the occasional and rare appearance in the Ardennes (Fleche Wallone) and his San Sebastian victory (both pre-transformation), Armstrong's results outside the Tour all came in the Dauphine and Tour de Swiss, with I believe a runner up in L-B-L.
Those sojourns into the Ardennes disappeared in the latter part of his career (can I call it part 2 with part 3 being the return in 2009?).

What you have to understand and even accept because even Armstrong has within the past years stated his regret, that the primary reason fans wished for him to have taken part in the Ardennes in that later period is because he was at the height of his abilities and he had shown an ability to do well in them. It just seemed a waste to not have altered his schedule such that he could have picked up or made an effort to do so, a win in a race that he has admitted to love and could have done some damage in.

 

[Archibald]

That "other GT greater" thing is just your opinion, man, and you seem to have missed or just ignore much when its about Lance palmares and (stage)wins in other (stage)races, one day races, classics, olympics and worlds.



I guess people who voted "yes" are very young or just haters. lol
Check your facts.

Before 2004, there are mostly just the wins listed.
http://www.radsport-news.com/sport/teams_fahrer_819.php

I voted "yes" did I?
check your facts - I haven't voted
better check my final sentence too while you're at it...

11 stage race wins is a larger number of stage race victories than 4
even adding the 3 one day races, 11 is still more than 7

getting awfully touchy about LA aren't you?
love the "hater" rhetoric - like a brokern record the way that gets constantly dragged out the cupboard

 

[pmcg76]

Yeah, really El Waterpistol.

I mean, You can't mean that post serious, accurate or fair or whatever, can you ?
Oh dear. Now it all makes sense.

As usual the truth is somewhere in the middle. It is a fact that Lance never won a single stage race in springtime during his Tour winning streak other than 1 Tour of Georgia. That is fact and compared with Contador pales in insignificance.

However, Lance did have some results in spring time, he made the podium at Criterium International a few times and done ok in a few stage races but for the so-called greatest Tour rider, that is very poor. He did do well at Amstel which he seemed to target, dont know why.

Looking over his springtime palmares, it seems that he would come over to Europe, **** about and test himself occacionally, have a crack at Amstel and then **** back over to the US for most of May and then reappear in June and win races for fun. Yes he does have a decent palmares in June/July but thats it. Only once did he race after the Tour and that was in 2000 due to the Olympics.

I dont think its a misrepresentation to say he done very little in springtime, thus not really racing a full season or even attempting to like Contador does.
I did have a glance at his palmares and its very noticeable there is a huge jump in performance from 95 to 96 but that is clinic talk of course.

 

[Cobblestoned]

I voted "yes" did I?
check your facts - I haven't voted
better check my final sentence too while you're at it...

11 stage race wins is a larger number of stage race victories than 4
even adding the 3 one day races, 11 is still more than 7

getting awfully touchy about LA aren't you?
love the "hater" rhetoric - like a brokern record the way that gets constantly dragged out the cupboard

Did I write that you voted yes ?
Better read, man. Didn't even look.

You know, sometimes it's about quality - not quantity and besides that, you again just ignore some results.
I get touchy about people not making much sense and people who just ignore and go on.

Well anyway, opening this poll in the CN-forum can only have one result.
But great to see so much people making sense here.
Sadly and like always, not enough.

Good result for Lance. Impressive.

 

[c&cfan]

Hi again, Mr C&C -hi Mr cobblestoned, how are you?
Successfull day for Port(o)ugal I guess. yes but we are already used to it, nexter year is going to be better
Hey, that bolded up there, that is going full *** again.
Just a hint. Never go full ***.
Never doubt Eddy. Never critizise Eddy. Eddy is always right ! Praise Eddy or just admire ! Eddy = GOD
You understand this ?
You can't do this. This is like doubting Beckenbauer in soccer. Never doubt Beckenbauer or Merckx. Never go full ***.

this is a post, so I can't hear you, but I bet, based in this " " that you are being sarcastic, right? if so, I also learned to never doubt barry bonds and tyson.

if you are not being sarcastic, I am going to say this:

eddy = GOD ---no no. chuck norris does not agree with you and, after reading your post, he really wants to show you why you are so wrong everyone knows that chuck= god.. we learned that in 2th grade. give me a break.

-------------------------------------

seriously... merckx was really good, but please stop (everyone that is doing this) with the this merckx was the best. it doesn't make sense at all... put contador against mainly amateurs, when the best was the best at everything, when cycling is the people's choice and then see what happens.

i really laugh a lot when people talk about MR roubaix, gimondi merckx and anquetil about them being the best riders ever without realising that it was just one era!!!!! they were all "merckx" but one was stronger. that's it. now we have bonnen canc gilbert andy contador and cav... we don't have one kind of rider anymore.. we are not going to be monkeys again.

 

[The Hitch]

oh wait a sec lance won the tour of georgia and the GP midi libre. . . . that changes everything

Yeah good point. Now that that has come out, it changes everything. Mods close the thread please

 

[danjo007]

wrong on both accounts.

 

[c&cfan]

Did I write that you voted yes ?
Better read, man. Didn't even look.

You know, sometimes it's about quality - not quantity and besides that, you again just ignore some results.
I get touchy about people not making much sense and people who just ignore and go on.

Well anyway, opening this poll in the CN-forum can only have one result.
But great to see so much people making sense here.
Sadly and like always, not enough.

Good result for Lance. Impressive.

oh and i agree with you about lance. he wasn't just the tour machine. well, that's not an opinion, his results show that.

however, his palmares does not make him better than alberto. au contraire..

you see armstrong, and you see tour contender, tour winner..
you see alberto, you see "the" stage racer...the one that suffers season after season... since the beggining, ALWAYS WINING what there is for a stage racer (like armstrong was) to win. and he will win more.... and other kind of races as well.

and yes, i have an uncle that reads the future.

 

[Cobblestoned]

As usual the truth is somewhere in the middle. It is a fact that Lance never won a single stage race in springtime during his Tour winning streak other than 1 Tour of Georgia. That is fact and compared with Contador pales in insignificance.

However, Lance did have some results in spring time, he made the podium at Criterium International a few times and done ok in a few stage races but for the so-called greatest Tour rider, that is very poor. He did do well at Amstel which he seemed to target, dont know why.

Looking over his springtime palmares, it seems that he would come over to Europe, **** about and test himself occacionally, have a crack at Amstel and then **** back over to the US for most of May and then reappear in June and win races for fun. Yes he does have a decent palmares in June/July but thats it. Only once did he race after the Tour and that was in 2000 due to the Olympics.

I dont think its a misrepresentation to say he done very little in springtime, thus not really racing a full season or even attempting to like Contador does.
I did have a glance at his palmares and its very noticeable there is a huge jump in performance from 95 to 96 but that is clinic talk of course.

The middle is always good. Thats where you find me most of the time.
When I am off the middle, I just do that to drag the extremes into the middle.
The longer your post got - the more you slipped off the middle. Like me. Look.

But you really had a good start......and ended up in the clinic. Of course only when it comes to Lance and his "jumps".....
Alberto never jumps - he just wins all over the year. Everywhere. On cobbles, hills, mountains, flats, TTs. From TdU, over worlds, to Paris-Tour and Lombardy. Fullgas, 100%, no gifts. bang bang.

The new generation - Eddy was a one-hit wonder compared to them.

 

[CosmicRocker]

c&cfan:
posts like this one are garbage. you don't make sense in a single sentence, how's that possible?

I apologize. I was unaware that you haven't learned reading comprehension. Let me explain:

In his first TdF, he won the Yellow jersey, the Green jersey, the Polka Dot jersey and also won the Most Combative award. Has anyone else even come close to that kind of dominance . . . . ever.

In Contador's TdF wins, any of them, has he worn the Yellow jersey? Has he led in the Sprint category (Green jersey)? Has he led in the KOM category (Polka Dot jersey)? ALL AT THE SAME TIME? Merckx did.

Back when the Armstrong/Ullrich feud was at its height, neither one of them took advantage of the other if one had a mechanical issue.

In 2003, Armstrong crashed. The leaders eased up as a sign of respect to Armstrong. Another year, Ullrich went off the road down an embankment. Armstrong eased up the pace till Ullrich was back on the bike and up to speed. Respect ! ! (You want to go look that up in a dictionary?)

Last year, Andy Schleck had a mechanical. As soon as he did, Contador launched an attack. He even apologized later for attacking, thus admitting he was wrong.

Contador’s first TdF was essentially won because Michael Rasmussen was kicked out of the Tour. NOT for doping, but because he was training in a different location than the UCI thought he was.

Contador didn't actually win that TdF so much as it was handed to him after Rasmussen was kicked out. I watched that tour. There were times when AC tried to outkick Rasmussen in the mountains, but couldn't. If Rasmussen had been allowed to finish, he would have won, not Contador.

 

[ruamruam]

Everyone forgets that Lance finished 2nd in the Tour of Gila. That is way superior to winning the Giro or Vuelta.

 

[pmcg76]

The middle is always good. Thats where you find me most of the time.
When I am off the middle, I just do that to drag the extremes into the middle.
The longer your post got - the more you slipped off the middle. Like me. Look.

But you really had a good start......and ended up in the clinic. Of course only when it comes to Lance and his "jumps".....
Alberto never jumps - he just wins all over the year. Everywhere. On cobbles, hills, mountains, flats, TTs. From TdU, over worlds, to Paris-Tour and Lombardy. Fullgas, 100%, no gifts. bang bang.

The new generation - Eddy was a one-hit wonder compared to them.

No the middle is the truth, check the stats yourself. Outside of Tour victories Alberto has 14 stage race wins and Lance has 11, well 9 actually as you cannot really count West Virginia as a high quality pro race.

Narrow that down to the period when Lance started winning the Tour and Lance has 5 stage race vicories outside the Tour. Since he started winning the Tour, Alberto has 12 stage race victories outside the Tour, those are the facts and that is what people are referring to when they mean Alberto is more competitive. The facts dont lie but the truth hurts.

 

[Polish]

Lance was a better stage racer and had greater Grand Tour Potential at 21.
What did Alberto do at 21? Tour of Poland stage win?

Lance was a better All Around Rider at 37.
Alberto will be watching TdF's and Rhonde's at that age burp.

And Lance was a better rider ALL the years in between.
(except the deathbed years)

 

[c&cfan]

I apologize. I was unaware that you haven't learned reading comprehension. Let me explain:



In Contador's TdF wins, any of them, has he worn the Yellow jersey? Has he led in the Sprint category (Green jersey)? Has he led in the KOM category (Polka Dot jersey)? ALL AT THE SAME TIME? Merckx did.



In 2003, Armstrong crashed. The leaders eased up as a sign of respect to Armstrong. Another year, Ullrich went off the road down an embankment. Armstrong eased up the pace till Ullrich was back on the bike and up to speed. Respect ! ! (You want to go look that up in a dictionary?)

Last year, Andy Schleck had a mechanical. As soon as he did, Contador launched an attack. He even apologized later for attacking, thus admitting he was wrong.



Contador didn't actually win that TdF so much as it was handed to him after Rasmussen was kicked out. I watched that tour. There were times when AC tried to outkick Rasmussen in the mountains, but couldn't. If Rasmussen had been allowed to finish, he would have won, not Contador.

no.

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