How far can Cavendish go?

[Libertine Seguros]

I stated at some point in the 2010 Tour, when people were debating the whole Hushovd/Cav thing, that the best sprinter in the race had been Alessandro Petacchi.

However, the best performances in the sprint in that race were:
3. Cavendish on the Champs Elysées
2. Cavendish in Stage 19 (for me even more impressive. The final nail in the coffin to those who said he needed a train)
1. Danilo Hondo's leadout in stage 4. Single-handedly wrecked the HTC train, which several teams combined had tried and failed to do for over a year. Hondo > Renshaw.

 

[Caruut]

It is just those 4. Merckx, Jalabert, Abdou and Petacchi. This is why I'm very keen for him to stick around in this Giro.

 

[Armchair Cyclist]

Constantly referring to "Peta" in a thread about Cavendish is potentially ambiguous.

Could Peta yet prevent Cav from breaking the Tour stage wins record?

 

[hfer07]

Boonen could always get over a hill. He won the WC in 2005 and was the only real sprinter that survived.

but Boonen isn't a Pure Sprinter at all-and the comparison is exactly what Cav needs to turn into when the speed cannot be produced he same way, If he wants to continue to be successful-So he must start training for a more diverse & complete rider-that's all

 

[El Pistolero]

but Boonen isn't a Pure Sprinter at all-and the comparison is exactly what Cav needs to turn into when the speed cannot be produced he same way, If he wants to continue to be successful-So he must start training for a more diverse & complete rider-that's all

Yeah, that's why I called Boonen's palmares greater because there's a bit more variety in it.

Who says Cav can turn into a different rider when his speed diminishes? Robbie Mcewen, Cipo and Peta weren't able to become more diverse and complete riders. Why would Cav be any different? He's no Laurent Jalabert(closest to that is Valverde although Jalabert had a better time trial in him)... If he would succeed in becoming a more all-round rider after his speed diminishes, I'll welcome it though.

Boonen didn't become better on the hills or cobbles after his speed diminished... He was always pretty good at cobbles and could get over hills better than most sprinters.

 

[El Pistolero]

Constantly referring to "Peta" in a thread about Cavendish is potentially ambiguous.

Could Peta yet prevent Cav from breaking the Tour stage wins record?

I know, but I like the sound of Peta better than Petacchi.

 

[Armchair Cyclist]

I know, but I like the sound of Peta better than Petacchi.

I like the look of Peta better than that of Petacchi

 

[El Pistolero]

I like the look of Peta better than that of Petacchi

Maybe Peta and Peta should get together and ditch that little hobbit.

(just kidding obviously.)

 

[Froome19]

I know, but I like the sound of Peta better than Petacchi.

Why not "Ale jet" then?

 

[El Pistolero]

Because I prefer calling him Peta? He's often called Peta by cycling commentators. Don't see the big deal. It's not like Mark's wife is important in the cycling world.

 

[Morbius]

It's not like Mark's wife is important in the cycling world.

I'm sure someone could plot that in a chart

 

[Catwhoorg]

I like the look of Peta better than that of Petacchi

Oh yes indeed-ey.

 

[will10]

Peta was here before Peta.

 

[Waterloo Sunrise]

The suggestions Cav might turn in to a 'more complete rider' (for which, read, cobbles) seem a bit daft to me.

The whole reason Cav is orders of magnitude (or standard deviations as that's the new theme here) better than the cobbles/sprinters guys is that he does it through technique rather than raw power.

He simply does not have the power to ride the cobbles at a high level - if he did he would climb solidly given his size. In reality he wins sprints without having to put out the most watts, and even so his power output is clearly skewed massively to the high end.

I'll be interested to see if he loses his kick with age, but sort of suspect he'll age relatively well as long as he remains interested - he's relying on his bike position rather than sheer force of pedal power so there is less to lose in that respect.

 

[Michele Scarred Pony]

I'm sure someone could plot that in a chart

Found this on cyclingstats.com

 

[Caruut]

Yeah, that's why I called Boonen's palmares greater because there's a bit more variety in it.

Who says Cav can turn into a different rider when his speed diminishes? Robbie Mcewen, Cipo and Peta weren't able to become more diverse and complete riders. Why would Cav be any different? He's no Laurent Jalabert(closest to that is Valverde although Jalabert had a better time trial in him)... If he would succeed in becoming a more all-round rider after his speed diminishes, I'll welcome it though.

Boonen didn't become better on the hills or cobbles after his speed diminished... He was always pretty good at cobbles and could get over hills better than most sprinters.

I don't think Boonen's palmarès is better because of the variety. It's better because he has won more prestigious races more often. Boonen has the best palmarès out of any cobbled specialist ever.

He holds the record or joint record in the 4 most important cobbled races, P-R, RVV, G-W and E3, and no other rider shares more than one with him. He is also the only rider to have ever won them all in one season.

 

[El Pistolero]

I don't think Boonen's palmarès is better because of the variety. It's better because he has won more prestigious races more often. Boonen has the best palmarès out of any cobbled specialist ever.

He holds the record or joint record in the 4 most important cobbled races, P-R, RVV, G-W and E3, and no other rider shares more than one with him. He is also the only rider to have ever won them all in one season.

His green jersey win in 2007 was a very big deal. I think they even made him sportsman of the year for it(he didn't win it in 2006 when he had a better year by most people's standards).

He has also been second and third before in Milan-San Remo and won the World Championship on a rather hilly course(not too hilly mind you). Green jersey and the WC add a lot to his palmares in my opinion. It shows he's not just a cobbled classic rider.

And let's be honest here, Roubaix and Vlaanderen are different races as well. Especially nowadays with the new parcours. Only Pippo Pozzato, Ballan, Cancellara and Boonen can won both of them in my opinion. And Ballan would need to get very lucky to ever win a race like Roubaix, the Ronde is better suited to him.

You're not going to see Sterke Stijn or Nick Nuyens winning Roubaix any time soon. Or Hushovd the Ronde... Gent-Wevelgem might be called a cobbled classic, but for me it's one of the 3 sprinter classics alongside Milan-San Remo and Paris-Tours. Even if the latter rarely ends in bunch sprints these days.

Yes, they all have cobbles in them, but are these races really similar? How many times has Fabian Cancellara won Gent-Wevelgem? The only race that's similar to another is the E3 Harelbeke, which is basically a "mini" Ronde van Vlaanderen.

You basically said it your self in the last paragraph of your post. No one had ever won E3 Harelbeke, Gent-Wevelgem, Ronde van Vlaanderen and Paris-Roubaix in the same season.

 

[Caruut]

His green jersey win in 2007 was a very big deal. I think they even made him sportsman of the year for it(he didn't win it in 2006 when he had a better year by most people's standards).

He has also been second and third before in Milan-San Remo and won the World Championship on a rather hilly course(not too hilly mind you). Green jersey and the WC add a lot to his palmares in my opinion. It shows he's not just a cobbled classic rider.

And let's be honest here, Roubaix and Vlaanderen are different races as well. Especially nowadays with the new parcours. Only Pippo Pozzato, Ballan, Cancellara and Boonen can won both of them in my opinion. And Ballan would need to get very lucky to ever win a race like Roubaix, the Ronde is better suited to him.

You're not going to see Sterke Stijn or Nick Nuyens winning Roubaix any time soon. Or Hushovd the Ronde... Gent-Wevelgem might be called a cobbled classic, but for me it's one of the 3 sprinter classics alongside Milan-San Remo and Paris-Tours. Even if the latter rarely ends in bunch sprints these days.

Yes, they all have cobbles in them, but are these races really similar? How many times has Fabian Cancellara won Gent-Wevelgem? The only race that's similar to another is the E3 Harelbeke, which is basically a "mini" Ronde van Vlaanderen.

To me, a Green Jersey is pretty insignificant compared to a monument win. A GT stage likewise. 10 GT stages per monument would be a fair trade-off, I think. Maybe 12 or 15. Then about 3 GT points jerseys to a monument.

I agree that the WC jersey adds a lot, but I think again that's more to do with the fact that it's a hugely prestigious thing to win, rather than adding variety.

The rest of your post I agree with really. They are different races with similarities. There is definite overlap, but they clearly aren't the same. I suppose for Cancellara each win is another feather in his "strongest rider for a solo effort" cap, and for Boonen, it's a feather in his "fastest guy who can cope the the race" cap.

The variety adds a bit, but I think looking back at his career, it will be the sheer number of victoriess in the classics and the WC that really stand out for Boonen.

For Cav it will be the sheer number of stage wins, the points jerseys and the WC.