Immaturity will be Contador's downfall...

[Publicus]

Common publicus im not salty or upset just stating what i believe to be true.

I'm just tweaking your nose blaxland.

 

[elapid]

I dont want lance to win "go baby schleck"thats who i think will win.Contadors problem is that he doesnt follow orders even if its for the best of the team....Professionals are not just paid to win there paid to act professional on and off the bike.So who is being a team player now....not Contador

Blaxland - please provide evidence other than Lance's quote as to how Contador did not follow orders? I have provided two quotes from Bruyneel that states otherwise.

 

[blaxland]

Blaxland - please provide evidence other than Lance's quote as to how Contador did not follow orders? I have provided two quotes from Bruyneel that states otherwise.

Last night on sbs tv(australian television station)lance and johan bruneel were both interviewed seperatley and both stated that no orders were given to attack on arciales stage.Thus telling me contador took measures into his own hands.Defying his teams orders..

 

[Anonymous]

Last night on sbs tv(australian television station)lance and johan bruneel were both interviewed seperatley and both stated that no orders were given to attack on arciales stage.Thus telling me contador took measures into his own hands.Defying his teams orders..

Well, they didn't tell him NOT to attack.

Funny though, in the interview on Versus with Bruyneel this morning, he did say it was not part of the plan. Then in the LL interview, he said the idea was to get Lance yellow yesterday. Versus this evening edited both out in the segment.

 

[racerralph]

You might wanna invest in a dictionary

Because professional atheletes are paid to follow orders thus the name professional...

WRONG!!!! the definition of professional is not: one who follows orders. The definition is more along the lines of: someone who gets paid to perform, with great skill. Sorta Like Contador does when the road goes upward

 

[racerralph]

Huh???

Last night on sbs tv(australian television station)lance and johan bruneel were both interviewed seperatley and both stated that no orders were given to attack on arciales stage.Thus telling me contador took measures into his own hands.Defying his teams orders..

Dude, if NO orders were given, how do you DEFY them????? Get it together, please......Phew!

 

[racerralph]

if Lance wasn't committed to supporting Contador as Astana's GC candidate, he should have formed his own team or signed with another squad. He chose Astana and so he needs to tow the team line. It's not about him. It's not his time. If Alberto falters, well then he can pick up the reins. Until then, he needs to be doing whatever he can to increase Contador's chances of winning. And that includes shutting the f*ck up with all of his passive aggressive psycho-babble.

Imagine Heras saying he had come to the Tour to win....

Hey, I agree with you 100%! But as I read that I thought, This is a Lance master stroke(Or so he's hoped!)!!! He would join the team with the Peloton's strongest rider, and his best fan, DS Bruyneel. That would kill two birds with one stone. Bruyneel would fall under his gaze once again, and be mesmerized into submission, and then they would both work together, to demonize and neutralize Contador. Thus handing LA his 8th TdF title( if he can fend off all the other challengers). How brilliant is that?? and to think it was right before our eyes all along!

 

[Eva Maria]

Because professional atheletes are paid to follow orders thus the name professional...

one of the keys to pro sports is you are only as good as your last race. AC is clearly the strongest rider.

 

[Rbudman]

I dont think the attack was about Armstrong at all. Contador does not need to show Armstrong how strong he is. Think about the course, for all intents it ends on top of Ventoux. If someone is going to beat him they are either going to have to get to the top first or get LOTS of time before the Ventoux stage. Nobody is going to get LOTS of time before the Ventoux stage so that means in order to win someone will have to crush Contador on Ventoux. He was simply showing people (the Schlecks, Evens, Sastre. . . ) that they cant beat him. It was a calculated psychological move the likes of which Lance used to win 7 tours (Sestrierre in '99, Alp d'huez in '01, remember "the look"? La Mongie in 2002). I think it showed a lot of maturity and also showed just how hard it will be to gain time on him anywhere on the course. I think the rest of the field, LA included, better hope he forgets to eat again or flats like 17 times on one of the 2 remaining summit finishes.

 

[elapid]

Last night on sbs tv(australian television station)lance and johan bruneel were both interviewed seperatley and both stated that no orders were given to attack on arciales stage.Thus telling me contador took measures into his own hands.Defying his teams orders.

Bruyneel said these after stage 7:

1. "The stage decided who was the strongest. This morning, we didn't give any specific instructions. I just told them [Contador and Armstrong] to talk to each other, and do what they have to do. Alberto was strong; he is a great climber and there are three summit finishes at this Tour. So this was one of his possibilities today."

2. “We didn’t have a specific plan to attack, our plan was to maintain our collective strength first and wait for attacks from the others. Alberto counter-attacked after an attack, our plan had been for the riders to communicate and respond. I had no race radio at that time or TV, so it was something they decided themselves."

Bruyneel's statements on SBS do not contradict the above and, as others have said, support the fact that Contador did not act against team orders.

 

[Robert Merivel]

That is the most reasonable post I have ever seen by you, sincerely.

Here is my question, when has Lance ever treated Contador like a respected teammate? I point to a couple of twitter incidents and his propensity to speak publicly about him in sideways inferences. Lance and Bruyneel have shown that there is no reason for Contador to trust them. Stage 3 was a clear indication that they desire Lance in yellow more than Contador. From Bruyneel's position, it probably has more to do with marketing than desire to see him win. For Armstrong, it is the other way around.

Again, the smartest way for a weaker rider (at this point Lance) to beat a slightly better rider (at this point Contador) if you are on the same team, is to get yellow and then require capitulation to time honored tactics. Also, you do this in a very public manner. Something in which Mr Armstrong excels.

Most of the time, when you are expressing yourself with objectivity, I agree whole heartedly, but sometimes you get a little strong with the doping thing. I guess the doping thing seems less of a big deal to me. I don't think Lance dopes but I don't have any proof. But thats another story for another forum. And Lance has his issues away from cycling but that's what makes it all so lively. Personalities, egos, the best athletes in the world at what they do. It's a circus, but it's fun and exciting. And we are all passionate about our special world of moving our bodies on some metal and rubber, and then there is the competitive side to all this. A wise man once said "Competition is for the Competent." Let's see...

 

[yourwelcome]

As if Bruyneel really cares. He's got two options for winning and as long as one of them comes up trumps he's done his job as team manager.

Bruyneel was talking about retiring a few years ago already, he won't shed tears if AC goes to a Spanish team where he'll be 'respected'.

 

[gjdavis60]

I thought Contador's move was a little foolish because it did nothing to change his situation on the team. If he wants to end the controversy he needs to end it by putting Armstrong away decisively and for good. 20 seconds to the bad or 2 seconds to the good won't do it. His move at the end of Stage 7 simply ****ed people off without settling anything. He had a perfect opportunity: a long uphill drag to the line. Why didn't he go sooner and put 2 minutes into Armstrong like Armstrong used to do to his rivals? Then it's "game over" and everyone on Astana would simply shut up and ride for him because there would be nothing left to do.

 

[BroDeal]

I thought Contador's move was a little foolish because it did nothing to change his situation on the team. If he wants to end the controversy he needs to end it by putting Armstrong away decisively and for good. 20 seconds to the bad or 2 seconds to the good won't do it. His move at the end of Stage 7 simply ****ed people off without settling anything. He had a perfect opportunity: a long uphill drag to the line. Why didn't he go sooner and put 2 minutes into Armstrong like Armstrong used to do to his rivals? Then it's "game over" and everyone on Astana would simply shut up and ride for him because there would be nothing left to do.

So you expect Contador to wait until stage 20 and hope for the best instead of grabbing time when it is available?

 

[elapid]

I thought Contador's move was a little foolish because it did nothing to change his situation on the team. If he wants to end the controversy he needs to end it by putting Armstrong away decisively and for good. 20 seconds to the bad or 2 seconds to the good won't do it. His move at the end of Stage 7 simply ****ed people off without settling anything. He had a perfect opportunity: a long uphill drag to the line. Why didn't he go sooner and put 2 minutes into Armstrong like Armstrong used to do to his rivals? Then it's "game over" and everyone on Astana would simply shut up and ride for him because there would be nothing left to do.

Andorre Arcalis was not steep enough to make big time differences. Plus the headwinds did not favour individual riders making a break. It would have been much safer in the group. It is doubtful that Contador could have made more time on a mountain with an average grade of 4.6%. Ventoux and the ITT will be the big tests.

 

[180mmCrank]

I thought Contador's move was a little foolish because it did nothing to change his situation on the team. If he wants to end the controversy he needs to end it by putting Armstrong away decisively and for good. 20 seconds to the bad or 2 seconds to the good won't do it. His move at the end of Stage 7 simply ****ed people off without settling anything. He had a perfect opportunity: a long uphill drag to the line. Why didn't he go sooner and put 2 minutes into Armstrong like Armstrong used to do to his rivals? Then it's "game over" and everyone on Astana would simply shut up and ride for him because there would be nothing left to do.

Contador is the best rider and he's fed up of all the crapolla around who's the leader. So when he saw the opportunity to take back the 20s that he was trailing Armstrong he took it. I am sure that JB was p!ssed because that's not the Postal/Discovery/Astana way. But there are split loyalties and priorities in the team ... and we are going to see more of this before the end of the Tour.

But Contador will be in Yellow by Paris IMHO

 

[Rbudman]

Contador is the best rider and he's fed up of all the crapolla around who's the leader. So when he saw the opportunity to take back the 20s that he was trailing Armstrong he took it. I am sure that JB was p!ssed because that's not the Postal/Discovery/Astana way. But there are split loyalties and priorities in the team ... and we are going to see more of this before the end of the Tour.

But Contador will be in Yellow by Paris IMHO

JB ****ed?? Not the Postal/Discovery way?? don't really know how you can say either of those. JB wants to win the Tour, if he does it with in-fighting on the team even better because then he is the guy (as far as the press is concerned) that kept it together and made it work. As far as the "Postal/Discovery" way: a HUGE part of Lance's 7 wins was sending a psychological message on the FIRST summit finish. AC did that.

Lance is simply going to have to deal with being out-lanced this year. so far it is all by the JB formula: win the TT's. take time on the summit finishes (especially the first), control everything else from the front of the peleton.

 

[auscyclefan94]

Just another typical example of how LA can do no wrong, and how AC is out to try and win the tour for himself.

Ummmm, duh, no sheet.

But lets reverse everything, if AC gained time on stage 3, with his teamates driving it home and LA going by himself yesterday and gaining time. Well the media/fanboys would be having a field day, Stage 3 would be selfish AC tries to hurt LA by driving the pace with his teammates, and Stage 7 would be LA true tour hero, the class of the field would be the media headlines.

LA was my hero, and I was firmly behind him for his seven victories. But this whole thing is really making me gag on the BS being spewed by LA and the media. Sorry LA, you quit and left, AC then became the man and IS the man now. Alot of this is just making me feel like your tarnishing your reputation. I truely hope that AC goes out and annihilates you ever chance he gets now.

Your ego has truely grown bigger then your skills, very very sad. You want a grand tour triple winner and THE team leader to bow down before you just because you decide to come back, and when he shows his skills, you play the media spin to make it sound like he's a crappy teammate. But when you do it, you make AC sound like an amateur because "He should have been more aware". Give me a break dood.

You make an excellent point, their is double standards in the media with Armstrong and the rest of the riders.

 

[180mmCrank]

Lance is simply going to have to deal with being out-lanced this year. so far it is all by the JB formula: win the TT's. take time on the summit finishes (especially the first), control everything else from the front of the peleton.

Ok I agree with much of what you are saying about what happened that this was Contador asserting himself on the race but I don't think this was what was planned by JB... And I don't think JB was too happy with AC breaking ranks in the way he did - hence I think he was p!ssed and I am sure they had words at the team meeting this morning.

 

[racerralph]

To all the folks out there that think AC's move was stupid. He's just taking it one step at a time. He now is ahead of Lance, which I'm sure, makes him comfortable. whether it's 2 secs. or 2 mins., he's ahead. Even if the team doesn't like that, they've still got to work for Lance if they want him to regain the lead, and I don't think they will catch AC napping again like he got caught doing on stage 3. Lance will now have to show stuff, on the road, that will put him ahead of Alberto again. And I think that from this point on, that's going to be very hard to do. Why do you think we now see AC glued to LA's rear wheel? The last thing that AC's bold move was, was stupid. And Lance knows that. That's why he's been visibly upset, now that he's not the lead Astana rider. The Super-Domestique role never fit him. Too bad he felt he had to pretend he would be Okay with that role, in France.

This is why he should have left well enough alone, back in '05, and quit for good, while he was untouchable, and on top of the world. Nowadays he is looking all too human. And even if his adventure this year has had very admirable results so far, it's still not enough for his personal needs.
I think he's flying to close to the Sun, and I think we are watching his wings melt.

 

[dadoorsron]

Two things:

1. The fact that he got time on everyone including Lance on such a shallow gradient is proof that they guy is a beast. Normally, it would have taken a much steeper one to pull out time.

2. Contador was smart to go back ahead of Mr Armstrong. Lance is looking for ways to beat a stronger rider. His hand is to keep Contador behind him and hope he gets the yellow first so that he can then demand everyone subject to his position. Contador knew that, and so did JB on stage 3. He helped put his second rider from the first stage ahead of his first for a reason. Just like Ben Stiller showing up to give the jersey after the TTT was orchestrated. What Contador did was ride for himself in the face of a DS who wouldn't commit to the strongest rider, and Mr Armstrong's inability to be trusted on anything that comes out of his mouth.

LL's interview on Versus this morning was telling in one way. He said clearly that they were trying to get Lance in yellow and that Contador's attack kept that from happening. (it appears it wouldn't have happened anyway) Now, if the genius plan was for the yellow to go to another team, then why would he have said that, and why was Astana riding tempo on the front today anyway?

Contador made a smart tactical move because he is now the one who will take the yellow if he and Lance finish together. Lance will never respect that, and wouldn't have in any instance. Why should Contador have allowed someone like that to get the jersey?

on your first point. Why would you chase down a teammate. So that argument that lance didn't go after contador because, he couldn't or he tried and failed is not a logical one. The only team in recent history to ride after a teammate is t-mobile, and Johan I feel has much more control over his team.

on the second point. Contadors very poor excuse about attacking Evans and sastre when both of them were in the lead group is just a cover story for his attempt to seperate himself from Armstrong, Leipheimer, and Kloden. When Directors of other teams are asking for help from other teams in the media to attack team astana their is a reason why. Team astana will fill the podium with there riders. Now in my book Contador was handed the 2007 Tour. He didn't win it on the road and I would say that about anyone that won that race. The removal of a rider that had a 3 plus minutes on second place Rasmussen. Was given the race by actions taken by a team For good reason. Contador was not the best Climber in that race Rasmussen was.

 

[auscyclefan94]

on your first point. Why would you chase down a teammate. So that argument that lance didn't go after contador because, he couldn't or he tried and failed is not a logical one. The only team in recent history to ride after a teammate is t-mobile, and Johan I feel has much more control over his team.

on the second point. Contadors very poor excuse about attacking Evans and sastre when both of them were in the lead group is just a cover story for his attempt to seperate himself from Armstrong, Leipheimer, and Kloden. When Directors of other teams are asking for help from other teams in the media to attack team astana their is a reason why. Team astana will fill the podium with there riders. Now in my book Contador was handed the 2007 Tour. He didn't win it on the road and I would say that about anyone that won that race. The removal of a rider that had a 3 plus minutes on second place Rasmussen. Was given the race by actions taken by a team For good reason. Contador was not the best Climber in that race Rasmussen was.

According to phil liggett: "He's one of the rotten apples"

On Cancellara's comments
The actual sparticus wasn't the most smartest leaders in war as he got boxed in by the romans in the south of italy.
Fabian "Sparticus' Cancellara lost a lot of credibility with his comments and wasn't that smart either because he wouldn't have a better solution to beat Astana as his team is failing to do so as well. Both Sparticus' are good with the brawn but weak in the head.

 

[dadoorsron]

Seems to me he both honored his teammates sacrifice by counter-attacking when he did. There were no further attacks and the team put more time into the other GC candidates. So now Schleck and the others need to pick up an additional 21 seconds instead of chipping a couple of seconds away. Perhaps tactics and strategy aren't your strong suit but this tactic was a key step in JB's overall strategy (putting more time into the other GC candidates). This race wasn't won on Stage 7, but it did move the team closer.

The team was doing fine prior to Contadors attack. He didn't counter anyones attack. He just rode off because he needs to seperate himself from his teammates because they will be the hardest ones to beat. Contador's actions made him look worse then any tactics armstrong used prior to his finishing win in 2005. Granted he never rode on a team that had this much strength. It takes a team to help win a tour. Just ask Ullrich, Evans about that. If you have No one to ride with you or help you or you have so much in fighting it blows the team apart. You see how many grand tours those two won.

 

[Publicus]

on your first point. Why would you chase down a teammate. So that argument that lance didn't go after contador because, he couldn't or he tried and failed is not a logical one. The only team in recent history to ride after a teammate is t-mobile, and Johan I feel has much more control over his team.

on the second point. Contadors very poor excuse about attacking Evans and sastre when both of them were in the lead group is just a cover story for his attempt to seperate himself from Armstrong, Leipheimer, and Kloden. When Directors of other teams are asking for help from other teams in the media to attack team astana their is a reason why. Team astana will fill the podium with there riders. Now in my book Contador was handed the 2007 Tour. He didn't win it on the road and I would say that about anyone that won that race. The removal of a rider that had a 3 plus minutes on second place Rasmussen. Was given the race by actions taken by a team For good reason. Contador was not the best Climber in that race Rasmussen was.

On point #1, I understood TFF to be saying the fact that Contador was able to get 21 seconds on the other GC contenders under the conditions tells you a great deal about his condition (i.e., strength). It wasn't a statement about whether or not Lance could have matched his acceleration (he couldn't but that's neither here nor there).

On your second point, I think you misunderstand the nature of this team. Levi, Kloden, Popo, Zubeldia, Paulhino and Khazak #1 are domestiques plain and simple. Lance hasn't accepted his role as a domestique quite yet, but eventually he will likely accept that reality. That being said, they aren't the team leaders and thus it's not a question of putting "time" into them. At the end of the day, they will put Contador's (or if Contador doesn't have it/falters and Lance does have it, Lance's) interest success first, as they should. When Lance put time into the GC rivals, he also put time into those same teammates and unfortunately his team leader.

As for the 2007 Tour, it was what it was. Contador won. Whether you think it was handed to him doesn't change the fact that he reached Paris faster than any of the other riders. He also won the Giro and the Vuelta in 2008. He's Astana's best chance at victory. I know that. You know that. The peleoton knows that. And Lance Armstrong knows that.

 

[dadoorsron]

I think everything you say is correct. Lance is a very good leader, particularly when the team is built around him like in the US Postal and Discovery days. I am also by no means ruling him out of winning the Tour - he is only 2 seconds behind and riding strongly. I also agree with you about Contador - he does react emotionally and makes silly tactical errors. However, I am not sure whether a professional team needs a dictatorial leader like Lance or a leader who leads by example like Contador, despite questions over his decision making skills. Lance's wins usually relied heavily on the team, whereas Contador seems to be able to do more by himself. This may favour Contador if/when it comes down to team divisions.

As you say, who are the other seven men in the team going to support? Bruyneel gave Contador a nod before the TdF started by selecting Sergio Paulinho, who was preferred by Contador, rather than Lance's man Chris Horner. This selection alone made me think that the team was going to be divided. My predictions: Levi and Popovych for Lance; Zubeldia, Paulinho and Muravyev for Contador; and no idea about Kloden and Rast.

Who knew we would agree over so many things?!

Kloden from what I understand respects Armstrong. I feel he will ride for lance. He was in stage 7 and he was watching out for lance all day today stage 8. Zubeldia, I feel would be for lance. Just because he is spanish you cant put him with Contador. I think most of the team is for Lance. Levi has made mention that the places that they are staying at and things that they have gotten would of never been possible if Armstrong wasn't with them.