JV talks, sort of

[horsinabout]

Brailsford really gotta get with iz marginal gains thing. Needs to adopt Lim's thermal regulation theory frozen bidons on stage 17 hailmary glory.

#sniag_lanigram

when you need to transcend marginal gains, Gollum is your tolkien character

has anyone seen his feet? I think de feet would have hairsutism

He looks in the mirror, rubs some brut cream into his bald head, slaps his chubby cheeks and says to his reflection....got away with it again Davy boy, you've got away with it again...

 

[Alesle]

appreciate the clarification.
So you agree it has been massively flawed under UCI supervision.
You say we can have reasonable faith that someday the passport will work.
Yet your claims of clean(er) cycling relate to past/present, not to the future.

Odd, I was of the impression JV said it has been quite successful so far, but needs further "work" in order to not be picked apart as people start to stretch its limits looking for weaknesses.

 

[Benotti69]

I don't think the passport has been junk. I think it's been very effective. I do not think it will continue to be effective unless it is made more robust and precise. That will require greater funding.

But, you say, Lance seems to have circumvented the passport. Perhaps. But, even if he did, I don't see that as common. I worry much less about Lance and the publicly visible squabbles between "experts" that you guys buy into. I worry about the big picture. The big picture says median values are down, median speeds are down. Winners' speeds are down, winners' blood values are more stable. That's what I like to see.

But, as I said above, if certain people are seen to have circumvented the passport or seen to have received preferential treatment, then the whole thing begins to fall apart, as more and more attempt to do the same. Like I said, I think it's been effective, I do not think it will stay that way without significant change.

Contador by passed the BP, Scarponi beat it, Pozzatto beat it, Ricco beat it, Lorenzo Bernucci, Denis Galimzyanov beat the passport even after testing pos for epo, Steve Houanard beat the BP but again got caught with a positive.

From what it is understood, only the truly stupid or unlucky test positive the rest avoid it.

Where has the blood passport truly worked apart from popping a few doms?

All the doping docs are still working for the teams.

Speeds are down. That doesn't mean clean racing. If the racing isn't clean it means that results are not clean. I couldn't care for the guy who instead of finishing top 100 finishes top 50, but the top 10 is where it counts and micro doping is effective and can decide races. How will the bloodpassport combat that?

 

[sniper]

gotta be kidding me jonny thinks Sky is clean.

this is just the public rhetoric. (snipped)

this, obviously.
all logic suggests sky are probably doping. johnny is a logic thinker. no way he really believes they are clean. the wiggo bomb is ticking.

to be honest, I have more respect for an omertist like Riis than for a guy who comes in here and lies me in the face after two decades of circus.

Contador by passed the BP, Scarponi beat it, Pozzatto beat it, Ricco beat it, Lorenzo Bernucci, Denis Galimzyanov beat the passport even after testing pos for epo, Steve Houanard beat the BP but again got caught with a positive.

From what it is understood, only the truly stupid or unlucky test positive the rest avoid it.

Where has the blood passport truly worked apart from popping a few doms?

All the doping docs are still working for the teams.

Speeds are down. That doesn't mean clean racing. If the racing isn't clean it means that results are not clean. I couldn't care for the guy who instead of finishing top 100 finishes top 50, but the top 10 is where it counts and micro doping is effective and can decide races. How will the bloodpassport combat that?

this, very much.
sad that you have to spell it out to jv. he knows it, but is keeping us for fools i guess.

JV - this is one part I don't get.
On one hand the "amateur armchair hematologist " line is used to dismiss those (like us here) who interpret the data.
But, for the most part you too appear to he relying on the same people to interpret the data. I assume the UcI do not give you all the data t get independently verified - I would presume you see overall datas at meetings.

So how do you know that the data is accurate and authentic?

good post Dr.
if you look closely, you'll find more foam than substance in most of what jv says.
and a lot of backtracking and disclaimers.

 

[JV1973]

JV - this is one part I don't get.
On one hand the "amateur armchair hematologist " line is used to dismiss those (like us here) who interpret the data.
But, for the most part you too appear to he relying on the same people to interpret the data. I assume the UcI do not give you all the data t get independently verified - I would presume you see overall datas at meetings.

So how do you know that the data is accurate and authentic?

I don't. They could be lying.


As for all the examples, like Galizynov, Hounard, etc... I think the biopass, for legal reasons, is more effective at targeting athletes, than actually bringing violation charges against them. targeted athletes tend to panic and stop doping, or get caught. Thats where it is efficacious, not in its actual ability to throw positives.

It's more effective as a deterrent and a limiter. But, this is where we differ, for me, that's still great news. Ive said this before: I don't care if people are doping, I care if it's possible that my team wins clean. If that remains in the realm of possibility, I am happy.

(of course I would be happier if no doping existed at all)

Why am I so non-idealistic here?

Because I lived/raced through a time period that makes this era look like an absolute utopia. Races were not won clean, ever, in WT racing when I started in the pros. So, you have to realize the stark contrast I see. Maybe it makes me more optimistic than you would like. But those are my life experiences.

JV

 

[JV1973]

this, obviously.
all logic suggests sky are probably doping. johnny is a logic thinker. no way he really believes they are clean. the wiggo bomb is ticking.

to be honest, I have more respect for an omertist like Riis than for a guy who comes in here and lies me in the face after two decades of circus.


this, very much.
sad that you have to spell it out to jv. he knows it, but is keeping us for fools i guess.


good post Dr.
if you look closely, you'll find more foam than substance in most of what jv says.
and a lot of backtracking and disclaimers.

No, what you'll find is someone with the capacity for divergent thinking. It's really discouraging such rude and personal attacks. i don't take you for a fool, I take you for someone who has already made up their mind and is not worth debating with. So, I tell you what I think, and you publicly roast me.

 

[Arnout]

I can't see that any form of EPO could be less detectable than Dynepo. Dynepo used human liver cells for the base of e coli to break down into the genetic specific rEPO. Most EPO uses hamster ovaries. So, could someone come up with an EPO that avoids the current gel/band templates? Sure. Won't last long, however, as it won't mimic endogenous EPO as well as Dynepo does.

If they can find Dynepo, then any other form of EPO will be detectable with a bit of time.

If you want to be worried about something, be worried about autologous transfusions. It's the last place true, non marginal, gains can be found and not detected. The biopassport limits it, severely, but doesn't eliminate it. Which is still good news. 500ml of packed cells makes a big performance gain, but would be picked up in an impartially administered biopass. 100ml might slide below the radar, but wouldn't provide that much performance gain. At some point being able to sleep through the night and look at yourself in the mirror is actually a larger performance gain than 100ml of packed red cells.

Again, all under the assumption the bio pass is being impartially administered and appropriately funded.

As far as my research went, the next-gen EPO is taken in orally, and does nothing more than trigger the body to increase natural hematocrit levels. It is even advertized by pharmaceuticals as the next big thing, as due to the perfectly natural way it works, complications or any body reactions on the substance entering the body are not possible. Hence, it is very hard to test for this, as there is almost no way to pick this EPO up other than circumstantially by the blood passport.

I understand Dynepo is also really hard to test for, but as far as I know the next gen will be more difficult, due to the way of intake and the body interaction.

I don't think the passport has been junk. I think it's been very effective. I do not think it will continue to be effective unless it is made more robust and precise. That will require greater funding.

What does greater funding mean? That we get more tests, better scientist, ...? Just out of interest, as part of my study deals with a field that always asks for greater funding, and then results will come (which of course never happens, they need more funding for that).

 

[xcleigh]

to be honest, I have more respect for an omertist like Riis than for a guy who comes in here and lies me in the face after two decades of circus.

So you're calling JV a liar. Ok based on what? Your skills at reading body language and facial 'tells' and a polygraph machine. How do you do that over the internet. Oh yeah mind reading. I think in order to know definitively someone is lying you have to know definitively the truth of the matter. You don't. You think JV is lying, you don't know. It seems JV is genuinely trying to engage in debate and yet you have more respect for Riis. Brilliant.

 

[horsinabout]

I don't. They could be lying.


It's more effective as a deterrent and a limiter. But, this is where we differ, for me, that's still great news. Ive said this before: I don't care if people are doping, I care if it's possible that my team wins clean. If that remains in the realm of possibility, I am happy.

(of course I would be happier if no doping existed at all)

Why am I so non-idealistic here?

Because I lived/raced through a time period that makes this era look like an absolute utopia. Races were not won clean, ever, in WT racing when I started in the pros. So, you have to realize the stark contrast I see. Maybe it makes me more optimistic than you would like. But those are my life experiences.

JV

I'm having trouble here, watching the TDF last year Sky looked like they were on a Sunday club run to win in a most dominant manner. What makes pro cycling better now than in the mid nineties?

 

[mastersracer]

Has there every been talk of budget caps as in some sports to create more parity? What percentage is your team's budget compared to Sky? Other than rider payroll, what are the major limiting budget factors that effect your team - staffing, longer training camps, etc.? If your budget doubled, what would you change (besides riders)?

 

[Dr. Maserati]

this, obviously.
all logic suggests sky are probably doping. johnny is a logic thinker. no way he really believes they are clean. the wiggo bomb is ticking.

to be honest, I have more respect for an omertist like Riis than for a guy who comes in here and lies me in the face after two decades of circus.


this, very much.
sad that you have to spell it out to jv. he knows it, but is keeping us for fools i guess.


good post Dr.
if you look closely, you'll find more foam than substance in most of what jv says.
and a lot of backtracking and disclaimers.

So, JB is lying to poor you - even when he wrote the following:

I see your point. I guess the reason I differentiate is that I deal with Sky on the rider transfer/talent identification market. They have twice my budget (no exaggeration) so, they are very successful in talent recruitment. But they are smart with their talent recruitment, as they look into what a rider can do, as opposed to what they have done.

Anyhow, Gewiss was an OK, but not massive budget. It was the classic donkeys into race horses. i just don't see many donkeys on Sky. I just see a massive payroll and smart talent identification.

BUT... I COULD BE WRONG.

And it nice that you have more respect for someone who we know has assisted people in doping.

 

[Benotti69]

I don't. They could be lying.


As for all the examples, like Galizynov, Hounard, etc... I think the biopass, for legal reasons, is more effective at targeting athletes, than actually bringing violation charges against them. targeted athletes tend to panic and stop doping, or get caught. Thats where it is efficacious, not in its actual ability to throw positives.

It's more effective as a deterrent and a limiter. But, this is where we differ, for me, that's still great news. Ive said this before: I don't care if people are doping, I care if it's possible that my team wins clean. If that remains in the realm of possibility, I am happy.

(of course I would be happier if no doping existed at all)

Why am I so non-idealistic here?

Because I lived/raced through a time period that makes this era look like an absolute utopia. Races were not won clean, ever, in WT racing when I started in the pros. So, you have to realize the stark contrast I see. Maybe it makes me more optimistic than you would like. But those are my life experiences.

JV

How can you be optimistic, this is merely a lull. UCI not going to change, IOC not going to force change upon UCI, all the doping docs haven't gone away.

What happens is the docs find easier and better ways to beat the passport better than they already are as they are working hard to?

Change must come with a change in the people who control and run the sport.

Saying your finding this a utopia is really really disappointing. That the 2013 season is well into gear and no real change after the USADA investigation tells me that this is a lull. Another Festina moment where an opportunity for change and to improve the sport for the benefit of all is slipping rapidly by. I dont blame anyone in particular but everyone in the sport.

That Sky are showing huge jumps in the performance of riders is not normal. Their numbers are not 'off world' but we are talking guys who are doing stuff they couldn't with other teams. Now Sky are a new team yet they talk down all the other riders and teams as if they were amatuers. That is what i call 'doping talk'. Same crap from USPS, cadence, loss of weight, huge heart, train harder etc etc

That you defend Sky, which I cannot understand as it is not your team while yet you refuse to call, for example OPQS or BMC doping teams, yet we all know their docs are dodgy, the BMC soigneur busted, Ballan being investigated etc etc, makes it worse for fans. Because the visuals do not add up to what i would consider a cycling utopia.

Can you guess what Sky were presenting ASO before the TdF?

 

[sniper]

I don't. They could be lying.

It's more effective as a deterrent and a limiter. But, this is where we differ, for me, that's still great news. Ive said this before: I don't care if people are doping, I care if it's possible that my team wins clean. If that remains in the realm of possibility, I am happy.

(of course I would be happier if no doping existed at all)

Why am I so non-idealistic here?

Because I lived/raced through a time period that makes this era look like an absolute utopia. Races were not won clean, ever, in WT racing when I started in the pros. So, you have to realize the stark contrast I see. Maybe it makes me more optimistic than you would like. But those are my life experiences.

JV

so you've been basing your claims and factual statements on data you don't even know are correct?
if anything your experiences should make you more weary in that case.
your guys are still loosing to sky, and yet you seem to prefer we don't inquire. I sense there is a Wiggo bomb ticking under your chair.

by the way, you'Re the only one seeing a stark contrast.
most of us we see stark resemblances.

 

[martinvickers]

So, JB is lying to poor you - even when he wrote the following:



And it nice that you have more respect for someone who we know has assisted people in doping.

Dr, at what point does what sniper is doing here become baiting?

 

[JV1973]

Has there every been talk of budget caps as in some sports to create more parity? What percentage is your team's budget compared to Sky? Other than rider payroll, what are the major limiting budget factors that effect your team - staffing, longer training camps, etc.? If your budget doubled, what would you change (besides riders)?

Yes. thankfully. I proposed the idea at the CCP around 2 years ago. Pat hated it. Luckily, the destabilization of power has caused the UCI to look at other ideas and consider other opinions. So, the idea of salary caps is being investigated very seriously now.

 

[webvan]

Dr, at what point does what sniper is doing here become baiting?

Until people interested in normal discussions put him on their ignore list, that worked well to get rid of "Dear Wiggo" when JV put him on his ignore list, sniper's just made mine!

 

[JV1973]

so you've been basing your claims and factual statements on data you don't even know are correct?
if anything your experiences should make you more weary in that case.
your guys are still loosing to sky, and yet you seem to prefer we don't inquire. I sense there is a Wiggo bomb ticking under your chair.

by the way, you'Re the only one seeing a stark contrast.
most of us we see stark resemblances.

I don't care if you inquire. Cool by me. I'm just giving you my opinion.

 

[JV1973]

Dr, at what point does what sniper is doing here become baiting?

I fish quite a bit. Sniper is a master baiter.

 

[Benotti69]

Yes. thankfully. I proposed the idea at the CCP around 2 years ago. Pat hated it. Luckily, the destabilization of power has caused the UCI to look at other ideas and consider other opinions. So, the idea of salary caps is being investigated very seriously now.

Not really enforceable is it? With teams travelling all over the world, money can be paid in various different countries without fear.

No doubt there are many ways to get around it.

 

[JV1973]

Contador by passed the BP, Scarponi beat it, Pozzatto beat it, Ricco beat it, Lorenzo Bernucci, Denis Galimzyanov beat the passport even after testing pos for epo, Steve Houanard beat the BP but again got caught with a positive.

From what it is understood, only the truly stupid or unlucky test positive the rest avoid it.

Where has the blood passport truly worked apart from popping a few doms?

All the doping docs are still working for the teams.

Speeds are down. That doesn't mean clean racing. If the racing isn't clean it means that results are not clean. I couldn't care for the guy who instead of finishing top 100 finishes top 50, but the top 10 is where it counts and micro doping is effective and can decide races. How will the bloodpassport combat that?

I'm talking about the speeds of the top 10. Those are down.

 

[Netserk]

JV as a spectator (you do watch cycling from time to time, right?) who is your favourite rider (on another team than Garmin)?

Do you prefer stage races or classics?

 

[sniper]

So, JB is lying to poor you - even when he wrote the following:

And it nice that you have more respect for someone who we know has assisted people in doping.

I think JV, like every guy with a brain, is suspect about Sky. Nothing more nothing less. So if he comes in here and says he believes they're clean, well he's lying (imo). Disclaimers of the "I could be wrong" type obviously don't change that, Doc.

Now, it's not bad that he's lying to me. But when he's trying to keep guys like Walsh from inquiring, that's where it gets nasty.

 

[JV1973]

How can you be optimistic, this is merely a lull. UCI not going to change, IOC not going to force change upon UCI, all the doping docs haven't gone away.

What happens is the docs find easier and better ways to beat the passport better than they already are as they are working hard to?

Change must come with a change in the people who control and run the sport.

Saying your finding this a utopia is really really disappointing. That the 2013 season is well into gear and no real change after the USADA investigation tells me that this is a lull. Another Festina moment where an opportunity for change and to improve the sport for the benefit of all is slipping rapidly by. I dont blame anyone in particular but everyone in the sport.

That Sky are showing huge jumps in the performance of riders is not normal. Their numbers are not 'off world' but we are talking guys who are doing stuff they couldn't with other teams. Now Sky are a new team yet they talk down all the other riders and teams as if they were amatuers. That is what i call 'doping talk'. Same crap from USPS, cadence, loss of weight, huge heart, train harder etc etc

That you defend Sky, which I cannot understand as it is not your team while yet you refuse to call, for example OPQS or BMC doping teams, yet we all know their docs are dodgy, the BMC soigneur busted, Ballan being investigated etc etc, makes it worse for fans. Because the visuals do not add up to what i would consider a cycling utopia.

Can you guess what Sky were presenting ASO before the TdF?

I'm not ever going to call out another team in a public forum. Not my style. I'll call them out to WADA, behind closed doors, if I think something is afoot. I'm never going to do it here, as it just ends up on the main page of Cyclingnews within 5 hours.

I don't know what Sky were presenting ASO.

 

[JV1973]

JV as a spectator (you do watch cycling from time to time, right?) who is your favourite rider (on another team than Garmin)?

Do you prefer stage races or classics?

Cancellara is fun to watch. I have respect for his style, even though we royally f-ed him in P-R two years ago. I like Nibali, because he always gives it a go. And Thibout is impressive on his day.

 

[Netserk]

What do you think about AICAR? There seem to be some rumours that this is the new hot thing, have you heard any rumours about it in the inner circles?