JV talks, sort of

[Dear Wiggo]

Do you know anything about cycling?

It's a distinct possibility.

If you go into a race at something that is, in theory, the lowest weight you can have to perform, then obviously you'll lose more weight during the GT and drop in performance.

Going into a GT a few kgs above ideal weight and lose weight until you're exactly at your ideal weight is something completely different, and is quite logically the ideal situation.

A few kgs? Who does that?

 

[pmcg76]

i did axiomatically believe jv always told the truth, til i found out otherwise.

jv is an ambitious man, has lived a privileged life in an intelligent middle class fam, and cycling exposed him to successful individuals in commerce.

could the actual refrain about doug ellis being the white night with a k, knight, could this be false, and jv hit up a man who had an interest in cycling on the continent in the pro ranks like tom wiesel. ? question mark.

jv told us that he rang credit agricol's roger legay and was despondent and told him he would now dope for the tour to get results.

but this was fictional.

and he did willingly dope when he was at CA and no such phone call went on.

and we are told the bee/wasp eye sting swelling could not be put down with cortisone during the tour, a practical response of legay/vaughters stance on doping.

every test of blood that looks potentially suspicious, is explained aways as the device was not correctly calibrated.

either, i have to be a fool to just willingly believe everything jv utters as the gospel truth <hitchens sarcasm> or i am suspicious when things are potentially contradictory.

the thing about a lier who goes on record, is it is much easier to catch them out in future by assessing the conflicting record. and without facts irl to jog the memory, those tails spun, are more easily lost in the memory bank.

for me, the legay phonecall is front and centre, the cortisone injection is front and centre. i know that millar, with ellis, are the owners, and the patronage of ellis and how it "occurred", or is told it occurred. i know the story about riding clean at CA which was not the case.

doping is not a bad thing in the context of cycling. i even concede, one is compelled to lie about it. but i see the lies and mistruths told as the genuinely insidious performance in the scheme of things.

Where is the bolded coming from, i.e. where was it said or written??, in this thread??? I have no recollection of JV calling Legeay and telling him he was going to dope for the Tour. I could have missed it so if you can point me in the direction that would be great.

In terms of JV being a liar, you, Blackcat have proven yourself to be a liar also so what makes you any more believable than JV?? David Millar/ a certain Saunier Duval rider you knew springs to mind!!! I do not take everything JV says as gospel but neither do I distort what he say's or dismiss it outright. It is people who distort things that I take issue with

 

[Benotti69]

While there may be other reasons, it is pretty clear to everyone that Sky has more resources and the money to pay a squad whose talent goes far deeper than Garmin. The first budget figures I found in google were for 2011 - that year Sky spent 11 million euros to Garmin's 6.5. Guys that are domestiques on Sky would be clear leaders at Garmin. Is it any wonder that Sky is more succesful?

So a GT winner, Hesjedal, would only be domestique on Sky?

Hesjdal lost weight as is the fashion in the peloton, but it backfired.

That JV/Hesjedal thought that the weight at the end of a 3 week GT was the right weight to start one doesn't make sense.

So the game of doping has been upped, weight loss without power loss is the fashion. Who started that? Sky did.

Others were always going to follow suit.

Sky did not demonstrate how they were able to do it, because that would be admitting to using PEDs. So others figure it out and catch up.

It is a small sport, not hard to find out. Riders move on after a year or two, Sky got rid of Leinders and no doubt he his plying his trade amongst various riders and teams.

 

[blackcat]

Where is the bolded coming from, i.e. where was it said or written??, in this thread??? I have no recollection of JV calling Legeay and telling him he was going to dope for the Tour. I could have missed it so if you can point me in the direction that would be great.

In terms of JV being a liar, you, Blackcat have proven yourself to be a liar also so what makes you any more believable than JV?? David Millar/ a certain Saunier Duval rider you knew springs to mind!!! I do not take everything JV says as gospel but neither do I distort what he say's or dismiss it outright. It is people who distort things that I take issue with

no, i am not lying dude, and did not lie wrt the saunier anecdote.

the anecdote wrt roger legay, went like this

i spoke(rang) legay and said i would dope for CA results at the tour. And legay discouraged this in the conversation.

that was the anecdote from jv's mouth or quill. and i would appreciate you not call me a liar and engage in ad hominem

thanks

 

[131313]

So the game of doping has been upped, weight loss without power loss is the fashion. Who started that? Sky did.

If you look at some old pics, it would appear that Fausto Coppi started the trend... dude was as lean as any rider today, complete with fully-visible upper leg veins.

Much like having a high vo2 max, being able to maintain a low level of body fat is one of those things that is individual to a degree, and separates some folks from others. I've seen guys get incredibly lean with no negative consequences, and others just fall apart and get sick every time the wind blows. And, just like oxygen delivery, this is one of those things that gets muddled by doping, and where the order of things can get shuffled.

I have to say though, it's crazy to me to think that Hesjedal was actually 2kg lighter this year, because even in his Healthnet days he seemed unbelievably skinny:
http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/road...p?id=/photos/2007/worlds07/ttpreview/_DSC0042

Pictures don't do it justice, the guy is really skinny. So, if he purposely tried to drop 2kg more, I'm not surprised the wheels came off. Looks like he gambled a bit looking for that last little bit and it didn't work out.

 

[Benotti69]

If you look at some old pics, it would appear that Fausto Coppi started the trend... dude was as lean as any rider today, complete with fully-visible upper leg veins.

Much like having a high vo2 max, being able to maintain a low level of body fat is one of those things that is individual to a degree, and separates some folks from others. I've seen guys get incredibly lean with no negative consequences, and others just fall apart and get sick every time the wind blows. And, just like oxygen delivery, this is one of those things that gets muddled by doping, and where the order of things can get shuffled.

I have to say though, it's crazy to me to think that Hesjedal was actually 2kg lighter this year, because even in his Healthnet days he seemed unbelievably skinny:
http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/road...p?id=/photos/2007/worlds07/ttpreview/_DSC0042

Pictures don't do it justice, the guy is really skinny. So, if he purposely tried to drop 2kg more, I'm not surprised the wheels came off. Looks like he gambled a bit looking for that last little bit and it didn't work out.

Coppi not a great analogy considering he took any and everything he could het his hands on, or then again maybe he is a good analogy

That Hesjdal/JV and their sports scientists figured an end of GT weight would be good to start a GT doesn't make sense.

Why did they not try that at a week long to see how it would work?

Sounds like excuses and not the right excuses.

 

[131313]

Coppi not a great analogy considering he took any and everything he could het his hands on, or then again maybe he is a good analogy

That Hesjdal/JV and their sports scientists figured an end of GT weight would be good to start a GT doesn't make sense.

Why did they not try that at a week long to see how it would work?

Sounds like excuses and not the right excuses.

I think Coppi is a good analogy, because honestly I don't think the doping products of his day were that effective at modulating metabolism. Those guys took a lot of feel-good meds. But, I could mention some guys you never heard of who are really lean (and clean). Bottom line though, some guys can get really lean, and some not.

As far as trying it before hand? I think that's easier said than done. One guy I know gained 2 lbs during a GT, so it's not a given that everyone will lose weight. And, you don't necessarily know exactly how you're going to react. you can't simulate a 3 week bike race in training. Add in the travel stress, etc. along with the riding workload, and it's just a bit of a gamble. It doesn't surprise me though to think "hey, he was at this weight at the end of the tour, so maybe he can go in at that weight". If you're right at the razor's edge, it really is a fine like between performance and failure. So, I understand them being tempted to take the risk, and I also understand why it didn't work out if that is indeed the cause.

 

[Catwhoorg]

Wigans could do that in the first place because, as everybody knows, he's full of crap.

I admit it, I laughed.

 

[webvan]

I think Coppi is a good analogy, because honestly I don't think the doping products of his day were that effective at modulating metabolism. Those guys took a lot of feel-good meds. But, I could mention some guys you never heard of who are really lean (and clean). Bottom line though, some guys can get really lean, and some not.

As far as trying it before hand? I think that's easier said than done. One guy I know gained 2 lbs during a GT, so it's not a given that everyone will lose weight. And, you don't necessarily know exactly how you're going to react. you can't simulate a 3 week bike race in training. Add in the travel stress, etc. along with the riding workload, and it's just a bit of a gamble. It doesn't surprise me though to think "hey, he was at this weight at the end of the tour, so maybe he can go in at that weight". If you're right at the razor's edge, it really is a fine like between performance and failure. So, I understand them being tempted to take the risk, and I also understand why it didn't work out if that is indeed the cause.

I think the bolded is exactly the issue, on the razor's edge because differences between the GC contenders, top elite athletes, and more generally the peloton, all elite athletes who would spank anyone else on earth in a climb, are minute and tiny tings can make a difference...yes, it's all about marginal gains, even though some here see it fit to (baselessly) ridicule that concept.

 

[D-Queued]

It is impossible to peak %95 all year long without a swimming coach

Makes sense for a limited budget team, too. Swimming coaches have to be cheaper when they need to switch sports to stay employed.

Dave.

 

[Benotti69]

I think Coppi is a good analogy, because honestly I don't think the doping products of his day were that effective at modulating metabolism. Those guys took a lot of feel-good meds. But, I could mention some guys you never heard of who are really lean (and clean). Bottom line though, some guys can get really lean, and some not.

As far as trying it before hand? I think that's easier said than done. One guy I know gained 2 lbs during a GT, so it's not a given that everyone will lose weight. And, you don't necessarily know exactly how you're going to react. you can't simulate a 3 week bike race in training. Add in the travel stress, etc. along with the riding workload, and it's just a bit of a gamble. It doesn't surprise me though to think "hey, he was at this weight at the end of the tour, so maybe he can go in at that weight". If you're right at the razor's edge, it really is a fine like between performance and failure. So, I understand them being tempted to take the risk, and I also understand why it didn't work out if that is indeed the cause.

I dont undertand why they were tempted to take the risk. Hesjedal should've followed last years program. It worked last year and a good chance it would put him on the podium again with a bit of luck as luck is always a factor in a GT win.

 

[DirtyWorks]

..yes, it's all about marginal gains, even though some here see it fit to (baselessly) ridicule that concept.

I agree with everything posted. Really. All very sensible comments, which is why I'm willing to give Ryder the benefit of the doubt.

But, you have to admit, like "Never tested positive." has taken on new meaning, Sky's 2012 performances poisoned the term "marginal gains."

 

[blackcat]

I dont undertand why they were tempted to take the risk. Hesjedal should've followed last years program. It worked last year and a good chance it would put him on the podium again with a bit of luck as luck is always a factor in a GT win.

perhaps he is following last years program,

BUT IN 7 WEEKS TIME!!!

was not he announced as leader at the Tour late last year. Dan Martin, you are leader for the classics. danielson, you are leader for mt washington hill climb. tyler, you are leader for Athens twilight. bingo.

 

[taiwan]

What about Talansky?

 

[Benotti69]

perhaps he is following last years program,

BUT IN 7 WEEKS TIME!!!

was not he announced as leader at the Tour late last year. Dan Martin, you are leader for the classics. danielson, you are leader for mt washington hill climb. tyler, you are leader for Athens twilight. bingo.

Then he shouldn't be lighter.

I guess they got their 'marginal gains' wrong. Medicine is cheaper in canada and obviously for good reason.

 

[blackcat]

What about Talansky?

tour of britain

 

[woodenswan]

Cancellara is fun to watch. I have respect for his style, even though we royally f-ed him in P-R two years ago.

"we royally ****ed him"
proud of that, huh?
WELL U SHOULDN'T BE! IT WAS WELLSHAMEFUL!

cheerio

 

[blackcat]

Cancellara is fun to watch. I have respect for his style, even though we royally f-ed him in P-R two years ago. I like Nibali, because he always gives it a go. And Thibout is impressive on his day.

ziiing!

props for the troll!


is a royal fark where you just screw your mistress and let her heiness/ghness eat cake?

 

[JV1973]

no, i am not lying dude, and did not lie wrt the saunier anecdote.

the anecdote wrt roger legay, went like this

i spoke(rang) legay and said i would dope for CA results at the tour. And legay discouraged this in the conversation.

that was the anecdote from jv's mouth or quill. and i would appreciate you not call me a liar and engage in ad hominem

thanks

Think you're not understanding what was said. That phone call never happened. I spoke with Roger a lot and made him aware that riding top 10 in a GT at that time wasn't going to happen unless there was a doping regime. He disagreed. But I've never said anything about telling legeay "hey, I'm gonna dope"... Mainly because I never did. Now, with the cortisone/wasp sting at the tour, I told him "give it to me, I don't care that it's against the rules" and he convinced me not to take it. Actually forced me not to. Maybe that's what you mean? That was a interesting moment for me. He held firm on principals, which I had rarely seen by cycling management. Made me think.

 

[pmcg76]

Then he shouldn't be lighter.

I guess they got their 'marginal gains' wrong. Medicine is cheaper in canada and obviously for good reason.

Except Hysdejal doesn't really live in Canada, does he?? Girona in season and Hawaii out of season unless he has moved back to Canada recently

 

[blackcat]

Think you're not understanding what was said. That phone call never happened. I spoke with Roger a lot and made him aware that riding top 10 in a GT at that time wasn't going to happen unless there was a doping regime. He disagreed. But I've never said anything about telling legeay "hey, I'm gonna dope"... Mainly because I never did. Now, with the cortisone/wasp sting at the tour, I told him "give it to me, I don't care that it's against the rules" and he convinced me not to take it. Actually forced me not to. Maybe that's what you mean? That was a interesting moment for me. He held firm on principals, which I had rarely seen by cycling management. Made me think.

thanks for your explanation. not that you owed it to me, or i was requiring it.

i just find it difficult to reconcile public record "facts" when they conflict with a new public record. NB. that is generic, said in good faith. not a backhander or dig

 

[pmcg76]

If you look at some old pics, it would appear that Fausto Coppi started the trend... dude was as lean as any rider today, complete with fully-visible upper leg veins.

Much like having a high vo2 max, being able to maintain a low level of body fat is one of those things that is individual to a degree, and separates some folks from others. I've seen guys get incredibly lean with no negative consequences, and others just fall apart and get sick every time the wind blows. And, just like oxygen delivery, this is one of those things that gets muddled by doping, and where the order of things can get shuffled.

I have to say though, it's crazy to me to think that Hesjedal was actually 2kg lighter this year, because even in his Healthnet days he seemed unbelievably skinny:
http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/road...p?id=/photos/2007/worlds07/ttpreview/_DSC0042

Pictures don't do it justice, the guy is really skinny. So, if he purposely tried to drop 2kg more, I'm not surprised the wheels came off. Looks like he gambled a bit looking for that last little bit and it didn't work out.

Well you made a statement that direct technically was not a lie wrt Millar/SD but you chose to omit a very relevant part that changed the whole tone of the facts. When I pointed out your distortion, you stopped with the BS.

Maybe you do not see distortion as lying but I do. If it was a case of you not knowing the facts, they why post something that is deliberately misleading based on incorrect info. The posts are still in this thread in case you wan't to rehash them.

I see JV has already said that he never phoned Legeay in the manner you described so as you are the only person claiming this telephone call happened, I would think it is up to yourself to show that you are not BSing. If you cannot show it, then it pretty clear you are in fact lying.

As you said before, when you talk(or post) in public and tell enough porkies, it is not hard to go back and find said porkies.

 

[blackcat]

Well you made a statement that direct technically was not a lie wrt Millar/SD but you chose to omit a very relevant part that changed the whole tone of the facts. When I pointed out your distortion, you stopped with the BS.

Maybe you do not see distortion as lying but I do. If it was a case of you not knowing the facts, they why post something that is deliberately misleading based on incorrect info. The posts are still in this thread in case you wan't to rehash them.

I see JV has already said that he never phoned Legeay in the manner you described so as you are the only person claiming this telephone call happened, I would think it is up to yourself to show that you are not BSing. If you cannot show it, then it pretty clear you are in fact lying.

As you said before, when you talk(or post) in public and tell enough porkies, it is not hard to go back and find said porkies.

quote 13, best you edit, you meant to quote me.

no, this was a popula refrain in cyclingnews and cycling media. RE: conversation with legaey, and an intention to dope for results.

it was what was in the media. do a cyclingnews search for vaughters, legeay, conversation, doping.

but dont tell me i am distorting things. if there is a problem with the fuzzy anecdote, it resides with vaughters massaging it, or the reporter/stenographer improperly recording it, but jv let it stand. and as he tells it, it really is not materially different, so i see no reason why he would tell the reporter to redact for accuracy, if he even checked the record.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

quote 13, best you edit, you meant to quote me.

no, this was a popula refrain in cyclingnews and cycling media. RE: conversation with legaey, and an intention to dope for results.

it was what was in the media. do a cyclingnews search for vaughters, legeay, conversation, doping.

but dont tell me i am distorting things. if there is a problem with the fuzzy anecdote, it resides with vaughters massaging it, or the reporter/stenographer improperly recording it, but jv let it stand. and as he tells it, it really is not materially different, so i see no reason why he would tell the reporter to redact for accuracy, if he even checked the record.

You are distorting things.

 

[IndianCyclist]

Wigans could do that in the first place because, as everybody knows, he's full of crap.

Some crap apparently one loses by puking it out