JV talks, sort of

[the sceptic]

Good to know the sport is cleaner than ever. Everyone has faith in this new clean generation. Now if just Lance could get his own team as well or maybe he could get a job on garmin.

 

[Benotti69]

Good to know the sport is cleaner than ever. Everyone has faith in this new clean generation. Now if just Lance could get his own team as well or maybe he could get a job on garmin.

Yeah if Monkey Mouth says the sport is clean, why would we not believe him?

I think he would fit in perfect at Garmin.

 

[thehog]

Good to know the sport is cleaner than ever. Everyone has faith in this new clean generation. Now if just Lance could get his own team as well or maybe he could get a job on garmin.

Lance can be Garmin's tactical mastermind from cell block H.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

I sincerely hope JV knows what he's doing and is only trying to manipulate LA into nuking the UCI. LA is evil, JV. Don't ever forget that.

^^pretty much my assessment too, except i'm done being neutral on jv, his politico-pragmatic side is taking over and it smells.

i seriously doubt that jv is not aware that it's the texas fraud who will try to manipulate the thaw and not the other way around.

I am genuinely curious to both your remarks.
No flaming here, but I am surprised by this from 2 posters who know what is what.

LA is not evil - sure he has done some horrible things to people (for which he should genuinely make amends for) but he is now effectively toothless.

Again, read what JV said:

“We talk here and there,” Vaughters said. “At the end of the day, I think Lance has got a lot of things to say, which could clarify a whole lot. In terms of the full download on what went on in that era of cycling, he could be big part of the solution, if he chooses to be.

The above IMO is absolutely true, and I have highlighted JVs qualifier.
I have no problem with anyone who reaches out to LA - doesn't matter if its Fuller, Vayer, JV etc in fact I was in Tx a couple of weeks ago and if the opportunity presented itself i would have met LA myself.

 

[hrotha]

Being toothless doesn't mean he's not evil anymore. Just a few months ago, before he had those teeth extracted and just days before his public "conversion", he was as vicious as ever, which suggests this is just part of his attempt to rehabilitate his public image.

 

[Tinman]

The Big Picture now is about ridding (the) sport of doping. If MM can assist in this then why not. No-one would argue with MM talking to Tygart on this. So why not JV perhaps trying to facilitate this.

No time to jump to conclusions on JV's motives here, as much as some of the commentary on "the sport is cleaner now" is way presumptuous and inappropriate at the moment, particularly when that line will only benefit and further empower Pat at the moment.

 

[Benotti69]

Being toothless doesn't mean he's not evil anymore. Just a few months ago, before he had those teeth extracted and just days before his public "conversion", he was as vicious as ever, which suggests this is just part of his attempt to rehabilitate his public image.

He is desperate, that much shows. That he reaches out to JV, a guy not particularly popular amongst the hierarchy in the sport, and MonkeyMouth was and maybe still is 'in' them, seems strange. JV has no power in the sport that we are aware off and JV himself is fond of telling the clinic how much low he is on the ladder.

If the guy was genuine he would have gone to Tygart. Dont need JV for that. Better still go to Tygart and give Kimmage an interview no holds bard.

MonkeyMouth is either looking for attention or is trying to play a game. Whatever his currency is so low amongst fans that he can only shop the UCI to win back any sympathy and to do that will show how much damage he did to the sport with getting people popped and all the other stuff he got up to.

No this guy should be ignored till he demonstrates a true wilingness to do good, starting with sitting down with Tygart.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Being toothless doesn't mean he's not evil anymore. Just a few months ago, before he had those teeth extracted and just days before his public "conversion", he was as vicious as ever, which suggests this is just part of his attempt to rehabilitate his public image.

If he is toothless then it does not matter how evil he can be - its all bark.

What has changed from a few months ago when he was 'vicious'?? Everything.
He was a guy who was trying to conceal his deceit, to protect his image, legacy and fortune - and he lost, bigtime.

So what if LA thinks this could be a way to rehabilitate his "public image"?
It won't work unless he is forthcoming with all information and more importantly makes genuine efforts to seek forgiveness for those he tried to crush.
The point you appear to miss is that the real people he hurt, the Andreus, LeMonds, JVs etc are prepared to hear him.
The general public who were duped and believed the myth will not so forgiving.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

The point you appear to miss is that the real people he hurt, the Andreus, LeMonds, JVs etc are prepared to hear him.
The general public who were duped and believed the myth will not so forgiving.

How exactly did Lance hurt JV?

 

[webvan]

Yes this makes no sense, JV is being naive or it's a bizarre mix of being flattered/variation of the Stockholm syndrom, if Armstrong is serious about helping (he isn't) he should talk to Trygart and rid cycling McQuack and Verdrugen...but of course he would run the risk of some more if his actions being uncovered and thus look even worse...as impossible as that seems!

 

[hrotha]

A point Dr Vortex seems to be missing is that I didn't say JV shouldn't speak to LA under any circumstances, but rather that the guy's evil and should be approached very carefully.

If you ask me, any negotiations with him should start with "Are you willing to speak to USADA now?", and end immediately afterwards if he said "no".

 

[the sceptic]

Maybe Lance feels JV is the only one he can trust in his new crusade of cleaning up cycling.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

A point Dr Vortex seems to be missing is that I didn't say JV shouldn't speak to LA under any circumstances, but rather that the guy's evil and should be approached very carefully.

If you ask me, any negotiations with him should start with "Are you willing to speak to USADA now?", and end immediately afterwards if he said "no".

And it is a point I never made.

I politely requested you to explain what you meant because I respect your opinion, although I am starting to wonder why.

 

[Tyler'sTwin]

If you ask me, any negotiations with him should start with "Are you willing to speak to USADA now?", and end immediately afterwards if he said "no".

Why!? WTH is wrong with attempting to convince LA to co-operate with USADA and takedown the current UCI management? You can't at least try to make him see your way and nudge him towards nuking the UCI? Would that be cheating or what's the problem here?

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Yes this makes no sense, JV is being naive or it's a bizarre mix of being flattered/variation of the Stockholm syndrom, if Armstrong is serious about helping (he isn't) he should talk to Trygart and rid cycling McQuack and Verdrugen...but of course he would run the risk of some more if his actions being uncovered and thus look even worse...as impossible as that seems!

That does seem impossible.

He has been exposed as a doper, he got preferential treatment, had positives overturned or tests ignored while also paying off the UCI. He then compounded all that with his appearance on Oprah.


I would assume Armstrongs biggest fear now is losing (even) more money. He is probably attempting to work out deals with those that are suing him. So a full confession could be costly.

 

[hrotha]

Why!? WTH is wrong with attempting to convince LA to co-operate with USADA and takedown the current UCI management? You can't at least try to make him see your way and nudge him towards nuking the UCI? Would that be cheating or what's the problem here?

The problem is LA can't be trusted, so he'd better make a massive show of goodwill first.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Peaking for an event used to be 4 parts magic, 1 part science. These days it seems some riders can guarantee performances. This troubles me. They should write a book on how to guarantee form, or someone needs to explain to me how it's done.

eg:

https://twitter.com/millarmind/status/334699013469253632
David Millar ‏@millarmind 15 May

Who'd a thunk it? All we had to do was ask @ramunas88 to win. @ryder_hesjedal was legendary, first to get bottles and help cover attacks.

 

[ScienceIsCool]

Fairly or unfairly, whenever JV or Armstrong come up I catch myself wondering "What's their angle"? As an example:

Mr. Vaughters is or was involved in forming a breakaway league, and with some unsavory characters like Bruyneel at that. Why was this done in secret? Without consultation of *all* the stakeholders such as riders, sponsors, organizers, and yes - the fans. Seems to me that if you want clean sport that's how you'd do it. Openly discuss how things would be run and who would run it.

So why was Mr. Vaughters part of that? What did he hope to achieve? The cynical part of me says it's a bigger piece of the pie. Sure, run things cleaner. But ultimately to be the one running things.

And Lance kind of goes without saying. He calculates based on his best interests. With the two of them together, I can't think that what they're really after is clean, healthy sport. What do they really want? Sure, clean cycling would be great but is that really the end goal? I don't think so.

The whole things gives me the creeps.

John Swanson

 

[python]

@ Dr. M and others with similar opinions.

I only see 2 relevant parties in this particular episode - jv, the self-promoted champion of clean cycling and the king fraud unrepentant doper from texas.

As it is known to the public at large, they, by their own actions and words, stand on the diametrically opposing ends...

One took every opportunity to defend HIS view of clean cycling today whilst the other, took every opportunity to scuttle the usada efforts to get his cooperation on the vision jv claims to share with usada.

To me, either jv is not, genuine, smart enough or is experiencing a 'glitch'.

Through personal observations, i dont think it's the last 2.

Unless armstrong shows a genuine remorse - which is clearly not his idea getting into a do or die legal struggle with the feds - he does not deserve a word with anyone who claims to share usada goals.

This is my strong opinion, doc, and it is fine if we disagree.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

@ Dr. M and others with similar opinions.

I only see 2 relevant parties in this particular episode - jv, the self-promoted champion of clean cycling and the king fraud unrepentant doper from texas.

As it is known to the public at large, they, by their own actions and words, stand on the diametrically opposing ends...

One took every opportunity to defend HIS view of clean cycling today whilst the other, took every opportunity to scuttle the usada efforts to get his cooperation on the vision jv claims to share with usada.

To me, either jv is not, genuine, smart enough or is experiencing a 'glitch'.

Through personal observations, i dont think it's the last 2.

Unless armstrong shows a genuine remorse - which is clearly not his idea getting into a do or die legal struggle with the feds - he does not deserve a word with anyone who claims to share usada goals.

This is my strong opinion, doc, and it is fine if we disagree.

Quite happy to disagree.

And again, not flaming here - what I do not get, is the blue above.
I expect that opposing or black & white view from, shall we say the not too informed poster. JV & LA doped, one saw the light belatedly and has tried to address it. The other has only just been exposed to it and I would assume is struggling with it.

The reasons that LA so vigorously battled everyone was to protect his own a$$. It was not about doping or anti-doping, cycling, UCI, USADA, Cancer or anything else I can think of.
Which IMO would be the very reason he would not bother to co-operate with USADA or anyone - he would look at it as "why bother?".

When in reality, if he did tell all it has the potential to change the sport at the top level, what JV has been attempting to do in 10 years LA could overtake with one interview.

 

[ScienceIsCool]

What? How!? Lance goes live on TV and finally tells the whole truth. What happens tomorrow? The same corrupt system rolls on and finds a way to elect McQuaid to another term. It's kind of like Livestrong. What does raising doping awareness get us. We are already *very* aware of how dirty the sport is and who the main villains are.

I just can't figure out why anyone would think that the road to Lance's redemption begins with Mr. Vaughters. Or that Lance is being persectued beyond what he deserves. That interview was just plain weird. Either Lance is after something or they both are.

John Swanson

 

[Dr. Maserati]

What? How!? Lance goes live on TV and finally tells the whole truth. What happens tomorrow? The same corrupt system rolls on and finds a way to elect McQuaid to another term. It's kind of like Livestrong. What does raising doping awareness get us. We are already *very* aware of how dirty the sport is and who the main villains are.

Not on TV, but an on the record interview with USADA.
And it is exposing that very corrupt system that helps remove McQuaid and any other enablers at the top.

I just can't figure out why anyone would think that the road to Lance's redemption begins with Mr. Vaughters. Or that Lance is being persectued beyond what he deserves. That interview was just plain weird. Either Lance is after something or they both are.

John Swanson

Who said LAs redemption begins with JV?
And who said he is being persecuted more than he deserves?
(He certainly isn't)

 

[python]

...The other [armstrong] has only just been exposed to it and I would assume is struggling with it.

glad you inserted 'i would assume'. otherwise, i'd expect the phrase from the least informed poster.

yeah, more than happy to disagree with you too, doc. your overoptimism doc is, that based on the abundance of evidence armstrong never struggled with his guilt - all his 'admissions' were forced by the legal setbacks or his own poor legal advisers. this is all i have the time and desire to say atm.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

glad you inserted 'i would assume'. otherwise, i'd expect the phrase from the least informed poster.

yeah, more than happy to disagree with you too, doc. your overoptimism doc is, that based on the abundance of evidence armstrong never struggled with his guilt - all his 'admissions' were forced by the legal setbacks or his own poor legal advisers. this is all i have the time and desire to say atm.

I never mentioned "guilt".

Seriously, I have no idea what has gotten in to this argument.

And just to make it clear, I am not overtly optimistic on LA coming forward.
That is the very reason I welcome JVs intervention, that eventually LA might recognize he should speak up, not because he will be forgiven (I dont think that will ever happen) or to show he was some victim (again, not gonna happen) but because it is the right thing to do.

 

[blackcat]

glad you inserted 'i would assume'. otherwise, i'd expect the phrase from the least informed poster.

yeah, more than happy to disagree with you too, doc. your overoptimism doc is, that based on the abundance of evidence armstrong never struggled with his guilt - all his 'admissions' were forced by the legal setbacks or his own poor legal advisers. this is all i have the time and desire to say atm.

^agree. any regret from armstrong is being indicted. he does not think he did anything wrong.

I can see that in the sphere of pro sport, it is a valid position. my concern with Armstrong, is how he let his professional doping in the sphere of sport, infect his behaviour in society, and attempted to hurt and silence many who spoke out. and other quasi criminal behaviour. jv never did this.

now, on jv and his road to damascus and attempting to change the sport with influence from the top. i am not sure it is 100% pure of faith. i think that good intentions perhaps are the majority of his motive.

armstrong on winfrey was means about winning back his cancer constituency. nothing more. i doubt we can see an authentic about face in his ethics. he is 40. there has to be a certain time the people can accept, what we see is what we get with armstrong. jv on the other hand, much more complicated. he is not solely motivated by greenbacks and power.