JV talks, sort of

[BroDeal]

Not on TV, but an on the record interview with USADA.
And it is exposing that very corrupt system that helps remove McQuaid and any other enablers at the top.

USADA wants Armstrong under oath. This cannot happen as long as he is under criminal investigation. Even with a grand bargain with the DOJ that encompasses criminal and civil issues, Armstrong will still have to deal with all the private party civil actions. It could be years before he could safely tell all. In just a few months, McQuaid will be safely ensconced in another term as El Presidente. I don't see how Armstrong can help.

This "conversation" with Vaughters is probably being blown way out of proportion. For months Armstrong has been tweeting his support for anyone who says anything about the doping situation that makes him look better. Armstrong is only interested in downplaying his role because that might open the possibility of his public redemption. Admitting that he bribed officials, was given special treatment, and went way beyond what other riders did is at odds with the story he wants to use for resurrection.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

USADA wants Armstrong under oath. This cannot happen as long as he is under criminal investigation. Even with a grand bargain with the DOJ that encompasses criminal and civil issues, Armstrong will still have to deal with all the private party civil actions. It could be years before he could safely tell all. In just a few months, McQuaid will be safely ensconced in another term as El Presidente. I don't see how Armstrong can help.

Great post.
I do think it is the legal and financial threats that LA is hoping to minimize - so in his mind the denial route is better.
But I think he will ultimately settle or lose most of those.

This "conversation" with Vaughters is probably being blown way out of proportion. For months Armstrong has been tweeting his support for anyone who says anything about the doping situation that makes him look better. Armstrong is only interested in downplaying his role because that might open the possibility of his public redemption. Admitting that he bribed officials, was given special treatment, and went way beyond what other riders did is at odds with the story he wants to use for resurrection.

Again, I think that is the way LA looks at it - and maybe why this appears to be contentious.

Its not about LA - (or redemption, which is a long long way off if ever), its about exposing the realities of the sport. He has info that would potentially change the top of the sport.

 

[ScienceIsCool]

This "conversation" with Vaughters is probably being blown way out of proportion. For months Armstrong has been tweeting his support for anyone who says anything about the doping situation that makes him look better. Armstrong is only interested in downplaying his role because that might open the possibility of his public redemption. Admitting that he bribed officials, was given special treatment, and went way beyond what other riders did is at odds with the story he wants to use for resurrection.

Agreed. Mr. Vaughters is a smart guy and understands Lance's motivations. So why is he playing along? What's his angle? Does he really believe Lance is being singled out? Persecuted beyond his culpability? In what way does this public reconciliation make cycling cleaner, more honest, and promote fair sport? How does it address the systemic issues that allowed Armstrong to bribe the UCI to look the other way? How does it prevent this from happening again?

Is it happening again?

John Swanson

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Agreed. Mr. Vaughters is a smart guy and understands Lance's motivations. So why is he playing along? What's his angle? Does he really believe Lance is being singled out? Persecuted beyond his culpability? In what way does this public reconciliation make cycling cleaner, more honest, and promote fair sport? How does it address the systemic issues that allowed Armstrong to bribe the UCI to look the other way? How does it prevent this from happening again?

Is it happening again?

John Swanson

Good question.

But isn't that the point? LA has been caught, exposed and yet you are asking a very fair question.
Doping did not begin with La, nor does it stop with him either - the real issue is the level above him, which has not changed and which he can expose.
Forget LA and look at what he can contribute.

In LAs mind I assume he thinks he has been treated badly, singled out or picked on - when the reality, that he has yet to accept (IMO), is that he deserves what he got. You do the crime you do the time.

 

[Clausfarre]

What? How!? Lance goes live on TV and finally tells the whole truth. What happens tomorrow? The same corrupt system rolls on and finds a way to elect McQuaid to another term. It's kind of like Livestrong. What does raising doping awareness get us. We are already *very* aware of how dirty the sport is and who the main villains are.

John Swanson

It this is meant as satire, I apologise. If not, you have got to be kidding. "I did not dope after 2005" is the whole truth to you?

 

[ScienceIsCool]

Hi, Clausfarre.

Are you being obtuse? Do *you* believe that Mr. Armstrong stopped doping after 2005? Or do you believe that he was lying? Do you believe that he sat down and told the whole truth to Oprah? Or did he hold back 90% of what we already know about the bribes and corruption of the sport of cycling?

So. With that in mind, maybe you would like to re-parse my statements.

John Swanson

 

[blackcat]

When in reality, if he did tell all it has the potential to change the sport at the top level, what JV has been attempting to do in 10 years LA could overtake with one interview.

i dont see it this way.

i think you are looking at something other than professional sport and the olympics, and wholly buying the myth.

professional sport is something other entirely compared to the sport which's ideals were drummed into individuals as adolescents.

the paradox exists because there is an ambiguous and invisible transition between this adolescent sport i am meaning, and this sport as entertainment that many posters, perhaps all posters, in the clinic deny (or cannot see). BigBoat aside.

those "all are doping", and those "sky/usps/garmin dont dope, they are fine upstanding citizens" are exactly the same type, just they sing from a different refrain. they both see sports drugs as a moral issue. it aint.

armstrong cant solve this.

 

[gooner]

i dont see it this way.

i think you are looking at something other than professional sport and the olympics, and wholly buying the myth.

professional sport is something other entirely compared to the sport which's ideals were drummed into individuals as adolescents.

the paradox exists because there is an ambiguous and invisible transition between this adolescent sport i am meaning, and this sport as entertainment that many posters, perhaps all posters, in the clinic deny (or cannot see). BigBoat aside.

those "all are doping", and those "sky/usps/garmin dont dope, they are fine upstanding citizens" are exactly the same type, just they sing from a different refrain. they both see sports drugs as a moral issue. it aint.

armstrong cant solve this.

I agree with the Dr.

One interview with Armstrong where he discloses everything he knows, surpasses everything that JV and others have done. That doesn't make him a hero, far from it. Just that he has more ammo on the UCI than others and with his testimony do we get the possible root and branch review with real reform of the UCI that we all want.

This is the only reason why Antoine Vayer reached out to him in the first place.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

I agree with the Dr.

One interview with Armstrong where he discloses everything he knows, surpasses everything that JV and others have done. That doesn't make him a hero, far from it. Just that he has more ammo on the UCI than others and with his testimony do we get the possible root and branch review with real reform of the UCI that we all want.

This is the only reason why Antoine Vayer reached out to him in the first place.

If you removed the heads of UCI right this instant, you would leave a vacuum. Not saying it doesn't need to be done, or that I don't want it done. Just saying there is no replacement system or group of individuals ready to replace them.

And keep in mind: power attracts the corrupt.

UCI comes under the IOC. It's my belief IOC corruption makes UCI corruption looking a Sunday picnic.

Even if you rooted out the rottenness of the UCI, it still comes under the IOC.

Fish rots from the head.

 

[Tinman]

Fish rots from the head.

Eureka. Finally got your avatar intent.

 

[frenchfry]

glad you inserted 'i would assume'. otherwise, i'd expect the phrase from the least informed poster.

yeah, more than happy to disagree with you too, doc. your overoptimism doc is, that based on the abundance of evidence armstrong never struggled with his guilt - all his 'admissions' were forced by the legal setbacks or his own poor legal advisers. this is all i have the time and desire to say atm.

About the last thing we heard about Armstrong's struggle with guilt was that he told Betsy that he didn't trust her.

Before that was his performance on Oprah which was a calculated mix of obvious truths, half truths, flagrant lies and even the now famous "monkey mouth" lies.

Preceding Oprah was the tweet from the trophy room.

Maybe I'm just not looking, but I don't remember seeing the smallest attempt to be truthful without self-interest or a manipulating motive.

 

[Scott SoCal]

Agreed. Mr. Vaughters is a smart guy and understands Lance's motivations. So why is he playing along? What's his angle? Does he really believe Lance is being singled out? Persecuted beyond his culpability? In what way does this public reconciliation make cycling cleaner, more honest, and promote fair sport? How does it address the systemic issues that allowed Armstrong to bribe the UCI to look the other way? How does it prevent this from happening again?

Is it happening again?

John Swanson

JV might be being played. I'm guessing he has considered that possibility.

I wonder if LA may be looking for ways to get his info out regarding Verbruggen and McQuaid.... perhaps JV can be the conduit.

Pure speculation of course.

 

[horsinabout]

i dont see it this way.

i think you are looking at something other than professional sport and the olympics, and wholly buying the myth.

professional sport is something other entirely compared to the sport which's ideals were drummed into individuals as adolescents.

the paradox exists because there is an ambiguous and invisible transition between this adolescent sport i am meaning, and this sport as entertainment that many posters, perhaps all posters, in the clinic deny (or cannot see). BigBoat aside.

those "all are doping", and those "sky/usps/garmin dont dope, they are fine upstanding citizens" are exactly the same type, just they sing from a different refrain. they both see sports drugs as a moral issue. it aint.

armstrong cant solve this.

the paradox exists because there is an ambiguous and invisible transition between this adolescent sport i am meaning, and this sport as entertainment that many posters, perhaps all posters, in the clinic deny (or cannot see). BigBoat aside.

I will once again try to decipher BC’s vernacular to the best of my ability. The “paradox exists” because of an “ambiguity” of an “invisible transition” of adolescent sport to that of professionalism as entertainment.
I interpret this to mean, that most if not all posters with exception to yourself and BigBoat, are engaged in an illogical argument, due to an unconscious blind spot that we have from our youthful sporting ideals to that of becoming a professional sports person as a mere provider of entertainment and this uncertainty cannot be resolved. How am I doing so far?

those "all are doping", and those "sky/usps/garmin dont dope, they are fine upstanding citizens" are exactly the same type, just they sing from a different refrain. they both see sports drugs as a moral issue. it aint.

armstrong cant solve this.

Those “all doing doping” and those “sky/garmin etc don’t dope” I take this to mean posters opposing views are two sides of the same coin. That in effect we take a strong opposing stance equal to it’s opposite and both parties fail to reach a middle ground position. That you feel that doping is not a black and white moral issue in any case.

That the situation of Armstrong, means that Armstrong himself as an individual cannot resolve this issue.

I always have to do a certain deciphering with your unique vocabulary before I can form an opinion on what you write.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

i dont see it this way.

i think you are looking at something other than professional sport and the olympics, and wholly buying the myth.

professional sport is something other entirely compared to the sport which's ideals were drummed into individuals as adolescents.

the paradox exists because there is an ambiguous and invisible transition between this adolescent sport i am meaning, and this sport as entertainment that many posters, perhaps all posters, in the clinic deny (or cannot see). BigBoat aside.

those "all are doping", and those "sky/usps/garmin dont dope, they are fine upstanding citizens" are exactly the same type, just they sing from a different refrain. they both see sports drugs as a moral issue. it aint.

armstrong cant solve this.

In sounding clever you make many wrong assumptions.

There is no moral angle here. Sport by its very nature is entertainment.
Does the sport need PEDs to continue? No.
If the magic tree that makes all PEDs fell what would happen in the races after? A bike race would break out.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

If you removed the heads of UCI right this instant, you would leave a vacuum. Not saying it doesn't need to be done, or that I don't want it done. Just saying there is no replacement system or group of individuals ready to replace them.

And keep in mind: power attracts the corrupt.

UCI comes under the IOC. It's my belief IOC corruption makes UCI corruption looking a Sunday picnic.

Even if you rooted out the rottenness of the UCI, it still comes under the IOC.

Fish rots from the head.

That is a fair assessment.

Removing McQuaid/HV etc in itself does not change the sport. However these people cannot clean up the sport, no one could trust changes even if they made them.

However, if they were ousted unceremoniously it would set a new precedent. And any replacement would initiate change so as not to have the same fate.

 

[horsinabout]

In sounding clever you make many wrong assumptions.

There is no moral angle here. Sport by its very nature is entertainment.
Does the sport need PEDs to continue? No.
If the magic tree that makes all PEDs fell what would happen in the races after? A bike race would break out.

I don't think sport needs PED's, in fact in some cases the racing would be more entertaining without them, i.e., less robotic and predictable. And the added bonus without the need for extreme weight loss and/or muscularity etc. and possible heath implications for the athletes.

But the reason why PED's are there is to ensure that you win, get a head and stay ahead of the game. And this, as entertainment, keeps the fans and the sponsors happy. It is a perversion of what sport is though, because it is cheating. Unless you believe LA that it was still an equal playing field despite PEDS.

Socially sport has become more professional and more for entertainment, with less people doing sport for it's own sake. And at the other end you have sport as for fitness i.e. charity cycle and running and the marathon running craze.

 

[Granville57]

If the magic tree that makes all PEDs fell what would happen in the races after?

 

[OnTheDrops]

Twitter

vaughter's latest

When all hated @DavidWalshST I liked him. When @PaulKimmage was a scourge, he stayed with our team. When Floyd was outcast, we had him to dinner

I look forward to the day folks in the comments sections/twitter are more concerned about what's right as opposed to who is righteous.

 

[the sceptic]

When everyone hated Lance, JV talked to him and offered him his forgiveness.

 

[BroDeal]

When everyone hated Lance, JV talked to him and offered him his forgiveness.

Doesn't JV have Saint Millar on staff for that?

 

[Dear Wiggo]

vaughter's latest

When all hated @DavidWalshST I liked him. When @PaulKimmage was a scourge, he stayed with our team. When Floyd was outcast, we had him to dinner

I look forward to the day folks in the comments sections/twitter are more concerned about what's right as opposed to who is righteous.

This is not something of which I was aware. Kimmage was a scourge when Garmin embedded him? Is that legit?

 

[blackcat]

That is a fair assessment.

Removing McQuaid/HV etc in itself does not change the sport. However these people cannot clean up the sport, no one could trust changes even if they made them.

However, if they were ousted unceremoniously it would set a new precedent. And any replacement would initiate change so as not to have the same fate.

optimistic. i dont hold

 

[blackcat]

This is not something of which I was aware. Kimmage was a scourge when Garmin embedded him? Is that legit?

yeah, they only had Floyd to dinner because they had free vouchers to Chipotle

 

[blackcat]

In sounding clever you make many wrong assumptions.

There is no moral angle here. Sport by its very nature is entertainment.
Does the sport need PEDs to continue? No.
If the magic tree that makes all PEDs fell what would happen in the races after? A bike race would break out.

Professor Charles Yesalis
Professor Julian Savulescu
Professor John Hoberman

have my back

i am not being original. i am merely plagiarising other learned profs. i am a dunce

https://www.google.com/search?q="ch...,or.r_qf.&fp=171f686c453bcc1&biw=1920&bih=919

 

[blackcat]

When everyone hated Lance, JV talked to him and offered him his forgiveness.

he aint jesus.