JV talks, sort of

[blackcat]

Re: Re:

Yep that all points to Garmin being clean and Phil's tattoo proves it!

see my avatar,,,

channel my avatar...channel my avatar channnel my avatar my avatar #my avatar

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

Yep that all points to Garmin being clean and Phil's tattoo proves it!

see my avatar,,,

channel my avatar...channel my avatar channnel my avatar my avatar #my avatar

avatar #notnormal

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Re: Re:

I wait for some tweets from Matthew Cooke during next season, to see what he says

Honestly, unless you want dirt on US domestic riders who retired 5 years ago, I dont think Cooke can do much but repeat second hand gossip.

If he did have info he would be too scared to spill it anyways.

Matty and Phil have been going at it on Twitter all year. Safe to say they dont like each other.

Said it before but Cooke seems to be desperate for attention. Was friends with Phil Zajicek, rode on Navigators/Health Net/Exergy, said nowt about them but then once he retires, suddenly he is Mr. Anti-doping. The irony being that the word on the grapevine was that Cooke hinself was thought to be a doper and I am not the only person to have heard that.

Just like Steve Tilford, piling in on Garmin/Tommy D etc but completely ignoring the skeletons far closer to his own closet. Did Cooke contact USADA about all his former doping colleagues or said anything publically about them? Cooke seems bitter because he wasn't good enough to make it to the big leagues and you can bet if he had made it, he would have been as quiet as a mouse about what went on.

Classic ad hominem tu quoque.

Why argue their claims when you can argue their person?

pfffttt....

 

[IzzyStradlin]

Re: Re:

Classic ad hominem tu quoque.

Why argue their claims when you can argue their person?

pfffttt....

The problem with Cooke is that he doesn't make any claims. Says he knows dirt, but is afraid to air the laundry.

 

[pmcg76]

Re: Re:

I wait for some tweets from Matthew Cooke during next season, to see what he says

Honestly, unless you want dirt on US domestic riders who retired 5 years ago, I dont think Cooke can do much but repeat second hand gossip.

If he did have info he would be too scared to spill it anyways.

Matty and Phil have been going at it on Twitter all year. Safe to say they dont like each other.

Said it before but Cooke seems to be desperate for attention. Was friends with Phil Zajicek, rode on Navigators/Health Net/Exergy, said nowt about them but then once he retires, suddenly he is Mr. Anti-doping. The irony being that the word on the grapevine was that Cooke hinself was thought to be a doper and I am not the only person to have heard that.

Just like Steve Tilford, piling in on Garmin/Tommy D etc but completely ignoring the skeletons far closer to his own closet. Did Cooke contact USADA about all his former doping colleagues or said anything publically about them? Cooke seems bitter because he wasn't good enough to make it to the big leagues and you can bet if he had made it, he would have been as quiet as a mouse about what went on.

Classic ad hominem tu quoque.

Why argue their claims when you can argue their person?

pfffttt....

As Izzy pointed out, why has Cooke not made any claims. All I see is verbal slanging which is not much different that what happens here, but then it is no surprise that it is the usual clinic suspects who like this guy when they had no clue who he even was until he suddenly climbed aboard his anti-doping horse post career. At least when Gaimon rode in the US, he was vocally anti-doping.

Cooke said nothing about the dopers he rode with and they were the real people who denied him his shot at the big time. Garmin were not at Gila/Beauce/Redlands/Cascade/Nature Valley etc yet Cooke could still not produce the results for a PT team to take a chance on him.

Must be tough being anti-doping when your fellow pros think you are the guy who was doping.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

More ad hominem and claims without supporting evidence.

A champion post.

 

[Benotti69]

JV said nothing about doping till he was SOL and the 'usual suspects' thinks the sunshines out of his Colorado.....

 

[IzzyStradlin]

Re:

JV said nothing about doping till he was SOL and the 'usual suspects' thinks the sunshines out of his Colorado.....

So you give Cooke credit for following in JV's footsteps?

 

[pmcg76]

Re:

More ad hominem and claims without supporting evidence.

A champion post.

Well I do have to try and fit in around here . The rumour story about Cooke being a doper seems to have being doing the rounds on the US circuit when he was racing, ask Race Radio(all rights to B69) or maybe Izzy. Two guys who do know the US circuit and people involved in it.

There were also rumours about Tommy D doping at the first Slipstream camp and Magnus B being kicked off the team because of doping, or how about JV trying to sign Contador. All rumours but ok for discussion here or can we only discuss rumours that are agreeable with The Clinic 12.

It would be great if people stopped trying to change the rules when they don't like the discussion.

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

JV said nothing about doping till he was SOL and the 'usual suspects' thinks the sunshines out of his Colorado.....

So you give Cooke credit for following in JV's footsteps?

Nope, i dont give Vaughters any credit. But you know what Cooke is calling out doping, something the sport badly needs, to break the omerta.

Vaughters serves the interests of Vaughters. I dont follow Cooke on twitter, i sometimes catch his stuff on others feeds.

 

[pmcg76]

Re: Re:

JV said nothing about doping till he was SOL and the 'usual suspects' thinks the sunshines out of his Colorado.....

So you give Cooke credit for following in JV's footsteps?

Nope, i dont give Vaughters any credit. But you know what Cooke is calling out doping, something the sport badly needs, to break the omerta.

Vaughters serves the interests of Vaughters. I dont follow Cooke on twitter, i sometimes catch his stuff on others feeds.

Please tell us what doping or which dopers Cooke has actually called out. Other than dopers we already know about or those at Garmin. Did he spill the beans on his buddy Zajicek or tell what really went down at Navigators/Health Net. Because until he does, he is just trying to stay relevant.

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

JV said nothing about doping till he was SOL and the 'usual suspects' thinks the sunshines out of his Colorado.....

So you give Cooke credit for following in JV's footsteps?

Nope, i dont give Vaughters any credit. But you know what Cooke is calling out doping, something the sport badly needs, to break the omerta.

Vaughters serves the interests of Vaughters. I dont follow Cooke on twitter, i sometimes catch his stuff on others feeds.

Please tell us what doping or which dopers Cooke has actually called out. Other than dopers we already know about or those at Garmin. Did he spill the beans on his buddy Zajicek or tell what really went down at Navigators/Health Net. Because until he does, he is just trying to stay relevant.

JV called out Armstrong years too late. Cooke aint the problem in the sport, nor is he the solution, but better to talk about the doping by calling it rather than sit on the fence till it suits. People like Vaughters are part of the problem. Cooke aint perfect, neither is Tilford, but at least they talk about doping if not the whole story and that is a start. Picking on them just plays to the omerta.

 

[pmcg76]

Re: Re:

JV said nothing about doping till he was SOL and the 'usual suspects' thinks the sunshines out of his Colorado.....

So you give Cooke credit for following in JV's footsteps?

Nope, i dont give Vaughters any credit. But you know what Cooke is calling out doping, something the sport badly needs, to break the omerta.

Vaughters serves the interests of Vaughters. I dont follow Cooke on twitter, i sometimes catch his stuff on others feeds.

Please tell us what doping or which dopers Cooke has actually called out. Other than dopers we already know about or those at Garmin. Did he spill the beans on his buddy Zajicek or tell what really went down at Navigators/Health Net. Because until he does, he is just trying to stay relevant.

JV called out Armstrong years too late. Cooke aint the problem in the sport, nor is he the solution, but better to talk about the doping by calling it rather than sit on the fence till it suits. People like Vaughters are part of the problem. Cooke aint perfect, neither is Tilford, but at least they talk about doping if not the whole story and that is a start. Picking on them just plays to the omerta.

So in answer to my question, Cooke has called out no actual doping or dopers. Waiting till it suits??? what exactly was Cooke doing at Navigators/Health Net. He probably could have outed a load of dopers in one fell swoop if the stories are to be believed, yet he wastes him time hammering on a team he never even rode for. All those guys from Cooke's teams are as much of a problem in the sport as JV and probably more so because they ride on the US domestic circuit, the same one Cooke rode on. At least Matt DeCanio called out those he rode with whether big or small names.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Re: Re:

More ad hominem and claims without supporting evidence.

A champion post.

Well I do have to try and fit in around here . The rumour story about Cooke being a doper seems to have being doing the rounds on the US circuit when he was racing, ask Race Radio(all rights to B69) or maybe Izzy. Two guys who do know the US circuit and people involved in it.

There were also rumours about Tommy D doping at the first Slipstream camp and Magnus B being kicked off the team because of doping, or how about JV trying to sign Contador. All rumours but ok for discussion here or can we only discuss rumours that are agreeable with The Clinic 12.

It would be great if people stopped trying to change the rules when they don't like the discussion.

I saw Race Radio backstab Cooke, yes.

Does IzzyStraddling want to add anything to the discussion? There's implicit agreement for now, based on what pcmg76 is saying.

So far I have seen the comment outing TommyD at the camp on Tilford's blog. Given TommyD was a doper before then, and has tested positive since then, that "rumour" is standing on incredibly firm ground yeah? Or do you disagree? The incredibly long lag between positive announcement and B sample doesn't strike you as dodgy as fck?

I have seen nothing in writing re: Cooke, other than Mr Tailwind Race Radio who provided no further information but quelle surprise there.

Magnus was kicked off the team, so there's at least some aspect of the rumour that appears to check out. And no love lost between them either. JV has raved about Contador and has lamented his lack of funding, so these rumours you are bleating about hold a lot more water than your ad hominem attack on Cooke.

I am guessing you don't even know what Cooke says / tweets, let alone have an answer to those things given your lack of response to those things. Your ad hominems are weak.

 

[Magic Matt]

I’m the ex-Cooke-teammate who spoke to Race Radio a while back. I’m doing this anonymously because I think the main reason Matt is doing this is to keep his name in the news and inflate his career post-mortum. I don’t want to do the same, I have no need to promote myself.

I’ve gotten pretty fed up with Matt’s twitter rants over the last year and it was good to see that others felt the same. pmcg76 seems to be the most in the know about Matt of anyone on this board. Apparently Matt’s new found anti-doping status is rubbing multiple people the wrong way because of the hypocrisy behind it. Here is what I know about domestic cycling’s new anti-doping hero:

-Started as a pro on Navigators and knew full well that he had teammates doping, yet stood by and cashed his checks
-Lived with Phil Z when Phil was buying from Papp, maybe Joe can let us know whether Phil was “eating for two"
-Defended Phil vehemently after Phil was popped.
-USADA contacted ex teammates of Matt's while investigating Matt around the time of the Phil bust. It was pretty clear to me that Matt himself was not cooperating.
-Was coached by Tyler Hamilton for a brief time and defended Tyler pretty adamantly, which really doesnt line up with how he views DZ, CVV etc. I’m pretty sure they were riding together in some of the 60 minutes footage.

Personally, it is my belief that Matt liked a little hot sauce here and there, if it wasnt a regular staple of his diet. He’s a strange kid and a 180 on doping to keep his name in the spotlight doesnt surprise me in the slightest. Based on some other stories, which don't pertain to cycling, he didn't strike me as a person of such high moral standards that he wouldn't dope. Quite the opposite in fact.

His Zajicek connection is by far the most hypocritical thing about this whole rant he is on. Just compare and contrast him with Gaimon who he has been highly critical of. Both had teammates/friends who had already been popped once, and got popped again. Gaimon expressed surprise and disbelief. Matt expressed pure defensiveness and not a bit of surprise. At least Gaimon’s reaction suggests that he wasn’t in the know about TD (hard to believe as that may be.) Matt’s reaction suggests he was fully aware and condoned Zajicek’s indiscretions.

I don’t know Gaimon that well other than talking with him in the peloton over the years, but he seemed incredibly genuine and was by far one of the nicest guys out there. That being said, there was only one cyclist that I was 100% sure was clean when I was racing and it was myself. There are a lot who fall into the 99% category, but you can only be 100% sure of what you put in your own body. I think it’s pretty stupid to put faith in people you dont even know. Guys have teammates who are doping and they arent aware of it, how the hell are fans supposed to know. I just hate seeing people who want to see a clean sport put their faith in some phony trying to stay relevant.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

I have tried googling and am not coming up with much -- can you share any links where Matt Cooke defends Phil Z post-pop?

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

So you give Cooke credit for following in JV's footsteps?

Nope, i dont give Vaughters any credit. But you know what Cooke is calling out doping, something the sport badly needs, to break the omerta.

Vaughters serves the interests of Vaughters. I dont follow Cooke on twitter, i sometimes catch his stuff on others feeds.

Please tell us what doping or which dopers Cooke has actually called out. Other than dopers we already know about or those at Garmin. Did he spill the beans on his buddy Zajicek or tell what really went down at Navigators/Health Net. Because until he does, he is just trying to stay relevant.

JV called out Armstrong years too late. Cooke aint the problem in the sport, nor is he the solution, but better to talk about the doping by calling it rather than sit on the fence till it suits. People like Vaughters are part of the problem. Cooke aint perfect, neither is Tilford, but at least they talk about doping if not the whole story and that is a start. Picking on them just plays to the omerta.

So in answer to my question, Cooke has called out no actual doping or dopers. Waiting till it suits??? what exactly was Cooke doing at Navigators/Health Net. He probably could have outed a load of dopers in one fell swoop if the stories are to be believed, yet he wastes him time hammering on a team he never even rode for. All those guys from Cooke's teams are as much of a problem in the sport as JV and probably more so because they ride on the US domestic circuit, the same one Cooke rode on. At least Matt DeCanio called out those he rode with whether big or small names.

This aint the Cooke thread!

 

[Benotti69]

Re:

I’m the ex-Cooke-teammate who spoke to Race Radio a while back. I’m doing this anonymously because I think the main reason Matt is doing this is to keep his name in the news and inflate his career post-mortum. I don’t want to do the same, I have no need to promote myself.

I’ve gotten pretty fed up with Matt’s twitter rants over the last year and it was good to see that others felt the same. pmcg76 seems to be the most in the know about Matt of anyone on this board. Apparently Matt’s new found anti-doping status is rubbing multiple people the wrong way because of the hypocrisy behind it. Here is what I know about domestic cycling’s new anti-doping hero:

-Started as a pro on Navigators and knew full well that he had teammates doping, yet stood by and cashed his checks
-Lived with Phil Z when Phil was buying from Papp, maybe Joe can let us know whether Phil was “eating for two"
-Defended Phil vehemently after Phil was popped.
-USADA contacted ex teammates of Matt's while investigating Matt around the time of the Phil bust. It was pretty clear to me that Matt himself was not cooperating.
-Was coached by Tyler Hamilton for a brief time and defended Tyler pretty adamantly, which really doesnt line up with how he views DZ, CVV etc. I’m pretty sure they were riding together in some of the 60 minutes footage.

Personally, it is my belief that Matt liked a little hot sauce here and there, if it wasnt a regular staple of his diet. He’s a strange kid and a 180 on doping to keep his name in the spotlight doesnt surprise me in the slightest. Based on some other stories, which don't pertain to cycling, he didn't strike me as a person of such high moral standards that he wouldn't dope. Quite the opposite in fact.

His Zajicek connection is by far the most hypocritical thing about this whole rant he is on. Just compare and contrast him with Gaimon who he has been highly critical of. Both had teammates/friends who had already been popped once, and got popped again. Gaimon expressed surprise and disbelief. Matt expressed pure defensiveness and not a bit of surprise. At least Gaimon’s reaction suggests that he wasn’t in the know about TD (hard to believe as that may be.) Matt’s reaction suggests he was fully aware and condoned Zajicek’s indiscretions.

I don’t know Gaimon that well other than talking with him in the peloton over the years, but he seemed incredibly genuine and was by far one of the nicest guys out there. That being said, there was only one cyclist that I was 100% sure was clean when I was racing and it was myself. There are a lot who fall into the 99% category, but you can only be 100% sure of what you put in your own body. I think it’s pretty stupid to put faith in people you dont even know. Guys have teammates who are doping and they arent aware of it, how the hell are fans supposed to know. I just hate seeing people who want to see a clean sport put their faith in some phony trying to stay relevant.

Can a mod start a new thread relating to Cooke please?

So you as an anonymous guy are allowed to post your beliefs that Cooke doped, but slam the guy for not being anonymous while calling out others? Hmmmmm, how does that work, oh yeah Magic......

What's your anti-doping status Magic?

PS nice guys dope too, ask BigMig.

.......I just hate seeing people who want to see a clean sport put their faith in some phony trying to stay relevant

That'll be JV and his team then

 

[Irondan]

Re: Re:

Can a mod start a new thread relating to Cooke please?

So you as an anonymous guy are allowed to post your beliefs that Cooke doped, but slam the guy for not being anonymous while calling out others? Hmmmmm, how does that work, oh yeah Magic......

What's your anti-doping status Magic?

PS nice guys dope too, ask BigMig.

.......I just hate seeing people who want to see a clean sport put their faith in some phony trying to stay relevant

That'll be JV and his team then

Be careful what you wish for....

I started a Matt Cooke thread for you guys to discuss him and these rumors.

Please post Matt Cooke related comments there rather than this thread.

Thanks

 

[blackcat]

Re:

Guys have teammates who are doping and they arent aware of it, how the hell are fans supposed to know. I just hate seeing people who want to see a clean sport put their faith in some phony trying to stay relevant.

this

x999999

 

[DamianoMachiavelli]

Set the Wayback Machine to 2006. JV made a tentative offer to Floyd Landis to join Slipstream for a huge dollar figure. The understanding between JV and Floyd was that Floyd would continue doing what he was doing. To fund the contract, JV intended to enlist the help of the so-called Champions Club. He gave a presentation to the club members at that year's Tour de France, and there he lied to them about Landis being clean despite knowing that Floyd was doping and would continue to do so if he rode for Slipstream. The deal was scuppered by Floyd testing positive.

Perhaps Operacion Puerto and Landis' positive caused JV to change his approach. Maybe by playing the part of an anti-doping crusader with the clean team he found he could garner enough attention and sponsorship without a major star and his wins. Perhaps the winds really were changing and he decided his intial approach was no longer one he wanted to pursue or one that matched the times. One thing is true, though. The origins and philosophy of the team is not what was sold to the public, and that is the problem with Vaughters: You never know what hidden agenda he is angling toward or who he will throw under the bus to get there.

 

[DirtyWorks]

Re:

...the problem with Vaughters: You never know what hidden agenda he is angling toward or who he will throw under the bus to get there.

This sums up the entire thread. JV's a smart guy too, so definitely one to keep at arm's length. Apparently the minders at the UCI like him well enough.

It's interesting that the Champion's Club was so busy running American cycling with no charter to do so, but average for an IOC sport. Does anyone know if it is still operational?

 

[blackcat]

Re:

One thing is true, though. The origins and philosophy of the team is not what was sold to the public, and that is the problem with Vaughters: You never know what hidden agenda he is angling toward or who he will throw under the bus to get there.

for a significant time i believed the founding myth about doug Ellis being the whiteknight with the bagful of cash as said "lets take TIAA-Cref to France in July, lets ride the Tour!"

then when I managed to triangulate all of JV's contradictions, his online record of press releases with his own words and mouth, when I triangulated these records, an official record, with other interviews with the tv media and other press, I came to see the contradictions put in a stark relief.

then I stopped believing. so now I dont believe the story about Ellis coming to him to fund the team with a bag full of money. And the quotes on his wasp sting and corticos on his eye, that one, that one may have a curnel of truth.

one of the overt lies I think is the <running off to roger Legeay around ~2002 to say "I will dope now because I feel I am letting you down without gettting results". to which RL replies "No JV, I just wont have it:". >

this was a period where julich ogrady and moreau were on the green of credit agricole. so obviously bullsh!t.

 

[blackcat]

Re: Re:

This sums up the entire thread. JV's a smart guy too, so definitely one to keep at arm's length. Apparently the minders at the UCI like him well enough.

actually, not sure if this is true.

was not the McQuaid administration angling to get a Slipstream positive? This was the line and refrain from all 2011,2012,2013.... Slipstream on tenterhooks with Aigle if they fukc up.

This may have been the time that JV was seeking to buy the sport with Armstrong/Stapleton/Knaggs/Verbruggen from Madame Amaury

 

[86TDFWinner]

Re: Re:

JV said nothing about doping till he was SOL and the 'usual suspects' thinks the sunshines out of his Colorado.....

So you give Cooke credit for following in JV's footsteps?

Nope, i dont give Vaughters any credit. But you know what Cooke is calling out doping, something the sport badly needs, to break the omerta.

Vaughters serves the interests of Vaughters. I dont follow Cooke on twitter, i sometimes catch his stuff on others feeds.

Consider yourself lucky, the guy is a total condescending, mark for himself, and I don't believe a word out of his mouth. Unless there's something in it for him, he's basically quiet.