-
The Cycling News forum is looking to add some volunteer moderators with Red Rick's recent retirement. If you're interested in helping keep our discussions on track, send a direct message to
In the meanwhile, please use the Report option if you see a post that doesn't fit within the forum rules.
Thanks!
Huckleberry said:
As long as the winners, including a nobody who vaulted out of nowhere like Froome, do not exceed the performance of LeMond, one of the greatest talents in cycling ever, it shows the sport is clean.
A new poster, with another new poster as the first reply.
Interesting?
Thirty-three questions in the OP. An outright bash in the first reply.
Interesting?
Question #33:
DZ's website has a news-feed called 'Zabriskie's Point'. Is there any connection with the hippie/bohemian film 'Zabriskies's Point'? The film buff that he is......
Interesting?
Is that really a question for JV?
Calling a spade a spade, JV is an obvious Public Strategies/Fanboy/Gunderson target.
That is a lot of, very interesting, questions for a first post.
A lot of research went into those questions.
Is it sincere, or is it bait?
As Dr. M noted, some questions are public knowledge and already answered.
If it is sincere, then our fan of Argyle will take his advice and mine and skinny the list to questions that are relevant, and that can readily be answered without infringing (further) into the privacy of others, for example.
Dave.
Interesting?
Thirty-three questions in the OP. An outright bash in the first reply.
Interesting?
Question #33:
DZ's website has a news-feed called 'Zabriskie's Point'. Is there any connection with the hippie/bohemian film 'Zabriskies's Point'? The film buff that he is......
Interesting?
Is that really a question for JV?
Calling a spade a spade, JV is an obvious Public Strategies/Fanboy/Gunderson target.
That is a lot of, very interesting, questions for a first post.
A lot of research went into those questions.
Is it sincere, or is it bait?
As Dr. M noted, some questions are public knowledge and already answered.
If it is sincere, then our fan of Argyle will take his advice and mine and skinny the list to questions that are relevant, and that can readily be answered without infringing (further) into the privacy of others, for example.
Dave.
Thread should be locked and/or deleted. Sock-puppets should not be talking to the sock-puppet on the other hand.
Dr. Maserati
BANNED
Only just noted your edit.Mrs John Murphy said:
There was nothing sneery about my post - I appreciate that AF took the time to write a post which is why I also spent time getting the best links that would answer some of their questions.
I did not read all the questions as they are mainly between the OP & JV.
If the new poster is in some way offended that an anonymous person did not welcome them to a forum that I do not own then I will apologize, to them.
Not some self appointed idiot who complains that my post was sneery and condescending by being sneery and condescending.
Suggest some of you CN old boys take your spat off line? here's some new posters on the thread that deserve the benefit of the doubt, pretty good viewpoints by both. If they turn out to be sockpuppets in another 20 or so posts then let the mods intervene. If you want to be a mod then volunteer.
We had the VIP discussion elsewhere. Conclusion was everyone is the same. So the above is what you end up with, ie be patient for each new poster for 20 or so posts, assume the benefit of the doubt...
We had the VIP discussion elsewhere. Conclusion was everyone is the same. So the above is what you end up with, ie be patient for each new poster for 20 or so posts, assume the benefit of the doubt...
Dr. Maserati
BANNED
Tinman said:
Thats ah, interesting advise.
Unlike you, I am not giving a "benefit of the doubt" or even assuming they could be a sock puppet - they asked questions and as they obviously are interested in the answers I thought I was being helpful by linking some of JVs better interviews.
If someone asks a question that I believe I can help with then I will answer it - I could not care how many posts they have. Likewise when I ask a question, I do not care about post count but content.
hrotha said:Why would you want this closed?
I guess it's totally normal for two first time posters with join dates of 9/19/12 to start a thread. There is no way they could possibly be the same person.
Dr. Maserati said:
Doc I wasn't advising you on your initial reply. Think you are spot on to reply/add value to the new posters.
Susan Westemeyer
Retired Moderator
THere is no reason to close this thread.
However, there may be reason to hand out suspensions to those who insult, go off-topic and see a sock-puppet behind every tree.
Susan
However, there may be reason to hand out suspensions to those who insult, go off-topic and see a sock-puppet behind every tree.
Susan
Not sure what to make of that pretty long winded post, certainly the first respondent may have issues.
Anyway there are questions that have been answered before and some ie. the ambiguity one that are a bit ridiculous. Asking someone if they were the anonymous person in any interview , while a fair question, is not likely to get answered so why ask it. I would not expect anyone to answer what looks like an interrogation with a purpose from someone with their mind already made up and that is what the post looks like to me.
However as we are on ask JV I thought I might ask something, if its been answered already somewhere and someone could link me to it that would be great.
As a team Garmin was set up with a policy of anti-doping. I think it is a great initiative and a positive thing for cycling. However alongside doping within cycling comes the Omerta and the policy of not speaking out against others which as is well documented can affect a riders career and life. Would it not be in the best interests of cycling to bring your team together ,all riders, and speak out as a team in favour of USADA, the ban given to Lance, and reiterate the team stance on doping ? Would it help when hiring to only hire riders who will follow this policy of being openly anti doping and unafraid to speak openly about it and try to break the omerta from the inside ?
There are many other questions but for the moment I believe these would be the ones I would like answered from an anti doping advocate with I believe a very quiet team ( and one in the team I believe who think the fans owe him belief and he doesnt have to prove a thing).
Anyway there are questions that have been answered before and some ie. the ambiguity one that are a bit ridiculous. Asking someone if they were the anonymous person in any interview , while a fair question, is not likely to get answered so why ask it. I would not expect anyone to answer what looks like an interrogation with a purpose from someone with their mind already made up and that is what the post looks like to me.
However as we are on ask JV I thought I might ask something, if its been answered already somewhere and someone could link me to it that would be great.
As a team Garmin was set up with a policy of anti-doping. I think it is a great initiative and a positive thing for cycling. However alongside doping within cycling comes the Omerta and the policy of not speaking out against others which as is well documented can affect a riders career and life. Would it not be in the best interests of cycling to bring your team together ,all riders, and speak out as a team in favour of USADA, the ban given to Lance, and reiterate the team stance on doping ? Would it help when hiring to only hire riders who will follow this policy of being openly anti doping and unafraid to speak openly about it and try to break the omerta from the inside ?
There are many other questions but for the moment I believe these would be the ones I would like answered from an anti doping advocate with I believe a very quiet team ( and one in the team I believe who think the fans owe him belief and he doesnt have to prove a thing).
While the second post of this thread was clearly overstating it, let's be honest, it's not at all far-fetched to assume doping goes on at Garmin under the supervision of JV.
Recall the whistleblower ("cyclingleaks") who spilled Prentice's email? He was obviously spilling it in here because he knows there is doping going on at Garmin. I couldn't see another plausible reason.
And then the email itself. "Guys, whatever you do, just remember, perception is reality!". Tells you all you need to know about Garmin's notion of transparency and about their esteem of the average cycling fan.
And then JV's ongoing crap on marginal gains. on how clean sky and brad are. how great a job Brailsford has done. How is that reconcilable with a clean DS? Exactly, it isn't.
And I'm not even talking yet about Garmin's phlebotomist, Gonzalez "Real Madrid" Haro. Or Garmin's teamdoc Mark "Greenedge" Quod, ex-Garmin physiologist San "Perdiguero-2004/ONCE/ASTANA/Dirty-fan" Millán, or ex-Garmin coach Allen "doesn't-get-any-dodgier" Lim. EDIT: I'm forgetting all about Weltz, who carried around Lance's bloodbags back in the USPS days, and is still in denial about it. Darn, I guess he forgot all about the perception is reality thing.
Ow, and why are Garmin, together with White's Greenedge (with Quod running overhours) and Hendrik Redant's UHC (with San Millan teaching ex-doper Sutherland how to race clean) based in Girona again? Ah, yeah, the climate.
Also, there are some results that speak volumes, such as Wiggo's 2009 4th place, amidst a bunch of recognized dopers.
Or Hesjedal's Giro win in a field which, according to a certain Ashenden, is still full of dopers.
Fazit: the odds are against Garmin being clean.
Recall the whistleblower ("cyclingleaks") who spilled Prentice's email? He was obviously spilling it in here because he knows there is doping going on at Garmin. I couldn't see another plausible reason.
And then the email itself. "Guys, whatever you do, just remember, perception is reality!". Tells you all you need to know about Garmin's notion of transparency and about their esteem of the average cycling fan.
And then JV's ongoing crap on marginal gains. on how clean sky and brad are. how great a job Brailsford has done. How is that reconcilable with a clean DS? Exactly, it isn't.
And I'm not even talking yet about Garmin's phlebotomist, Gonzalez "Real Madrid" Haro. Or Garmin's teamdoc Mark "Greenedge" Quod, ex-Garmin physiologist San "Perdiguero-2004/ONCE/ASTANA/Dirty-fan" Millán, or ex-Garmin coach Allen "doesn't-get-any-dodgier" Lim. EDIT: I'm forgetting all about Weltz, who carried around Lance's bloodbags back in the USPS days, and is still in denial about it. Darn, I guess he forgot all about the perception is reality thing.
Ow, and why are Garmin, together with White's Greenedge (with Quod running overhours) and Hendrik Redant's UHC (with San Millan teaching ex-doper Sutherland how to race clean) based in Girona again? Ah, yeah, the climate.
Also, there are some results that speak volumes, such as Wiggo's 2009 4th place, amidst a bunch of recognized dopers.
Or Hesjedal's Giro win in a field which, according to a certain Ashenden, is still full of dopers.
Fazit: the odds are against Garmin being clean.
sniper said:
Ah, yes, Girona is a tell-tale sign! Keep on harping about how you can tell someone is doping because he lives in Girona or trains in Isreal. It makes you look relly smart.
As to the perception is reality-quote. I am sure it has been debated to death already, but rather than explain it negatively (if people's perception is we don't dope, that's all that matters), it can quite easily be explained the other way around (if people's perception is that we dope, it doesn't mater if we are really clean(ish)).
In addition, you again limp a lot of people together with silly nicknames or middle names but when JV was here and explained some of the choices he had made with regard to those very people, you were found apologizing profusely to JV and thanking him humbly for the insights he had provided, just to turn around now and do it all over again. Are you really expecting JV to ever address any question put forward by you again if you remain as insincere and rude as you have been till now?
Lastly I think it would make you look so more sympathetic if you stopped with the stupid nicknames and middle names. It is childish and doesn't add to the strength of you arguments (and that strength is there).
Remember, c'est le ton qui fait la musique!
Regards
GJ
GJB123 said:Ah, yes, Girona is a tell-tale sign! Keep on harping about how you can tell someone is doping because he lives in Girona or trains in Isreal. It makes you look relly smart.
As to the perception is reality-quote. I am sure it has been debated to death already, but rather than explain it negatively (if people's perception is we don't dope, that's all that matters), it can quite easily be explained the other way around (if people's perception is that we dope, it doesn't mater if we are really clean(ish)).
In addition, you again limp a lot of people together with silly nicknames or middle names but when JV was here and explained some of the choices he had made with regard to those very people, you were found apologizing profusely to JV and thanking him humbly for the insights he had provided, just to turn around now and do it all over again. Are you really expecting JV to ever address any question put forward by you again if you remain as insincere and rude as you have been till now?
Lastly I think it would make you look so more sympathetic if you stopped with the stupid nicknames and middle names. It is childish and doesn't add to the strength of you arguments (and that strength is there).
Remember, c'est le ton qui fait la musique!
Regards
GJ
Agreed about the nicknames.
Girona is definitely not a tell-all sign.
But imo the ties between Garmin and USPS are (too) multiple, and Girona is just one of those ties.
as for humbly apologizing to JV: as the mods and several posters have pointed out, JV is a public person and hence must be treated with silk gloves.
and as JV himself has shown: if you don't treat him with silk gloves, he starts ranting.
The scandals that have rocked professional cycling have a long history and a habit of repeating themselves. You cannot change the nature of humanity.
Doping in My opinion is part and parcel of this sport. It has ALWAYS been that way and sadly in My opinion it will always be that way. How can we trust someone just because they say they are clean. You can't.
The Festina affair, Armstrong, Contador, Operación Puerto for example. History as I have said has a habit of repeating itself. What next ? And there will be a next.
Are we meant to believe that professional cycling has cleaned itself up after
a hundred Years of cheating.
Doping in this sport was widespread especially in the 1980's, 90's and 00's.
The prize Money is greater now than it has ever been. Lucrative sponsorship deals.
The average speeds of three week grand tours are not getting slower.
A three week Grand Tour is as difficult now as it has ever been physically and psychologically.
I think that Paul Kimmage summed it up very well indeed in his book Rough Ride on how demanding a Three Week Grand Tour is.
I cannot quote exactly the excerpt that is written in his book. Because that would be violation of copyright law.
Basically his childhood dream was to become a professional cyclist. He was the Irish National Champion at 19.
He finished sixth in the world amateur championship at 23.
He is overjoyed at becoming a professional cyclist. His dream realized.
He goes on to say that during his first Tour in 1986 he faced a dilemma that would jeoporadize his professional career. After witnessing some drug abuse in the peloton he believed that he could reach the top without doping. But that idea changed during his first Tour in 1986. For the first eight days of the Tour he was the best placed rider on his team. In the best form of his career. But the suddenly on the ninth day he was a spent force.
So after nine days he was physically and psychologically on his hands and knees. Such as the toll that this the most demanding of sports has on the Human Body.
In order to keep performing to some degree he needed his engine
recharged. After nine days!!. He finishes in 131 st place overall at the Tour.
He did not wish to use performance enhancing drugs, and chose not to.
Apart from the three times he used amphetamines in Criteriums which he admitted to.
His next four years in the professional peloton were all about survival.
I am not making any direct allegations of drug use within the Team Of Garmin Sharp or any other team for that matter.
But given the history of this the most demanding of sports with all the drug abuse that has occurred both past and present it is only natural to be skeptical. I would ask people to keep an open mind. No one knows for sure
to what extent drugs are being used currently within the peloton.
But one thing is sure. There are drugs being used by athletes within cycling. Sport is a business where all involved are making money. And in some cases a hell of a lot of dollar.
The UCI choose to remain silent and do nothing to try to clean up this sport. Apart from the odd positive test here and there with which they have to take action. Basically making scapegoats out of a small minority who are stupid enough to get caught. So that they can spin their nonsense
that the sport is being cleaned up, with the reality being that only a small number are getting caught. And boy does Pat know that. He sure as hell does.
They have protected professional cyclists in the past.
So there have been corruption.
Then they spin lies to the media that all of these allegations are nonsense.
Threatening litigation against the likes of Landis for telling the Truth.
Any where there is a lot of money corruption is never far around the corner.
Doping in My opinion is part and parcel of this sport. It has ALWAYS been that way and sadly in My opinion it will always be that way. How can we trust someone just because they say they are clean. You can't.
The Festina affair, Armstrong, Contador, Operación Puerto for example. History as I have said has a habit of repeating itself. What next ? And there will be a next.
Are we meant to believe that professional cycling has cleaned itself up after
a hundred Years of cheating.
Doping in this sport was widespread especially in the 1980's, 90's and 00's.
The prize Money is greater now than it has ever been. Lucrative sponsorship deals.
The average speeds of three week grand tours are not getting slower.
A three week Grand Tour is as difficult now as it has ever been physically and psychologically.
I think that Paul Kimmage summed it up very well indeed in his book Rough Ride on how demanding a Three Week Grand Tour is.
I cannot quote exactly the excerpt that is written in his book. Because that would be violation of copyright law.
Basically his childhood dream was to become a professional cyclist. He was the Irish National Champion at 19.
He finished sixth in the world amateur championship at 23.
He is overjoyed at becoming a professional cyclist. His dream realized.
He goes on to say that during his first Tour in 1986 he faced a dilemma that would jeoporadize his professional career. After witnessing some drug abuse in the peloton he believed that he could reach the top without doping. But that idea changed during his first Tour in 1986. For the first eight days of the Tour he was the best placed rider on his team. In the best form of his career. But the suddenly on the ninth day he was a spent force.
So after nine days he was physically and psychologically on his hands and knees. Such as the toll that this the most demanding of sports has on the Human Body.
In order to keep performing to some degree he needed his engine
recharged. After nine days!!. He finishes in 131 st place overall at the Tour.
He did not wish to use performance enhancing drugs, and chose not to.
Apart from the three times he used amphetamines in Criteriums which he admitted to.
His next four years in the professional peloton were all about survival.
I am not making any direct allegations of drug use within the Team Of Garmin Sharp or any other team for that matter.
But given the history of this the most demanding of sports with all the drug abuse that has occurred both past and present it is only natural to be skeptical. I would ask people to keep an open mind. No one knows for sure
to what extent drugs are being used currently within the peloton.
But one thing is sure. There are drugs being used by athletes within cycling. Sport is a business where all involved are making money. And in some cases a hell of a lot of dollar.
The UCI choose to remain silent and do nothing to try to clean up this sport. Apart from the odd positive test here and there with which they have to take action. Basically making scapegoats out of a small minority who are stupid enough to get caught. So that they can spin their nonsense
that the sport is being cleaned up, with the reality being that only a small number are getting caught. And boy does Pat know that. He sure as hell does.
They have protected professional cyclists in the past.
So there have been corruption.
Then they spin lies to the media that all of these allegations are nonsense.
Threatening litigation against the likes of Landis for telling the Truth.
Any where there is a lot of money corruption is never far around the corner.
Susan Westemeyer
Retired Moderator
This thread is for questions for Vaughters.
General thoughts on doping or on Garmin-Sharp should go elsewhere.
Thanks.
Susan
General thoughts on doping or on Garmin-Sharp should go elsewhere.
Thanks.
Susan
I am removing numerous of my posts as I do not consider myself very well informed and I feel that I am adding little to the discussion.
Last edited:
gooner said:
JV obviously ignoring Ashenden's article where he called out new age teams as having elements within doping.
Shock horror, JV obfuscating as usual.
Excellent OP. Intellectual 'turfing.
Some will see right to the heart of it. Others will reply as if the questions were asked in earnest.
Some will see right to the heart of it. Others will reply as if the questions were asked in earnest.
Benotti69 said:
Pretty disgusting. Anybody who still hasn't understood that he and Brailsford are in the same boat must be living under a rock.
I reckon we won't see JV in here for a while. Too many questions he can't answer. The only transparent thing about JV is his PR tactics.
TRENDING THREADS
-
-
Paris - Roubaix 2024, one day monument, April 7- Started by Dreginald
- Replies: 2K
-
-
-
Volta Ciclista a Catalunya 2024 (March 18-24)- Started by Devil's Elbow
- Replies: 2K
-
Tour of the Alps 2024 (April 15 - 19)- Started by Devil's Elbow
- Replies: 259
-
De Ronde van Vlaanderen (270.8 km), 2024 March 31 (Sunday)- Started by Netserk
- Replies: 1K
Facebook
Twitter
Instagram