JV talks, sort of

[Samson777]

No I didn't trust the UCI at all but then again I am not the one constantly whining about doping and seeking this perfect fix-it-all100% honest organisation that will never exist.

Good call it seems. But you did write that the reason some one never got happy, was that they did not trust in any organizations. Or did I misread that? But if not, who is then good to trust in your opinion? If you want to be happy, which a lot of us do, I asume.

I don't know who seeks a 100 honest fix it all organization, but again you could be right that if you demand that, satisfaction could be hard to find.
But let's take UCI as an example, it doesn't really have to be about 100% for me. But when they have been so low, let's say 2% on the honest scale, you could hope, they would move to at least 10%. At least that would be improvement.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Except that, demonstrably, those who have confessed have not been banned for two years.

Yes but that was only because they were involved in a larger case and were clearly offered a deal. If you went on your own free will without being offered a deal first, there might have been no 6 month winter ban. It might have been the whole 2 years.

Not quite - they didn't get a deal because of the 'ongoing investigations' - you get a reduction for "substantial assistance" - more importantly, you only get that if you agree to be willing to testify and that you have been truthful.

UCI ADR:

299

For the purposes of article 298, a Licence-Holder providing substantial assistance must: (1) fully disclose n a signed written statement all information he possesses in relation to anti-doping rule violations, and (2) fully cooperate with the investigation and adjudication of any case related to that
information, including, for example, presenting testimony at a hearing if requested to do so by an Anti-Doping Organization or hearing panel. Further, the information provided must be credible and must comprise an important part of any case which is initiated or, iif no case is initiated, must have
provided a sufficient basis on which a case could have been brought.

 

[Benotti69]

Glad to see real people in the cycling world understand the real person Vaughters is:

Now I’m sort of ****ed off about the whole thing. According to the article linked above, Jonathan knew all about Ryder’s drug usage and confession when he was giving me **** publicly for calling Ryder out. What a ***.

http://stevetilford.com/2013/10/31/remorseful-ryder-hesjedal/comment-page-1/#comment-36398

 

[Benotti69]

Hey JV, ever considered giving the winnings you and your boys cheated back?

If not back to the race organisers, how about to some fund that benefits anti doping.

Must be a few million dollars of cheated money floating between the Garmin crew!

 

[MartinGT]

I am just re-listening to BBC Documentary 'Pedellers' and Dave Millar on there saying how things are so clean etc.

Same old BS from the same old rider. laughable.

 

[Ferminal]

When was that made? When Millar was just pretending he was clean or when he actually was?

 

[Netserk]

When was that made? When Millar was just pretending he was clean or when he actually was?

When was that?

 

[Ferminal]

Best guess 2012-

Certainly not when he was top10 on Ventoux in the Dauphine.

 

[Avoriaz]

Glad to see real people in the cycling world understand the real person Vaughters is:




http://stevetilford.com/2013/10/31/remorseful-ryder-hesjedal/comment-page-1/#comment-36398

Hopefully some of it was tongue in cheek:

This isn’t even taking into account of all the sponsorship money these.....riders took from the pitiful Americans. The American Professional MTB sponsorship completely vaporized just about the same time as the Canadian, and Europeans too, were killing everyone

 

[MartinGT]

When was that?

Have a look here - Linky

 

[sniper]

vaughters on twitter: needless to say @ryder_hesjedal was 100% truthful,under oath

needless to say indeed.

most of this speaks for itself.

sad days for those fans who for whatever reason had put faith in jv.

 

[Benotti69]

Hopefully some of it was tongue in cheek:

I dont think Telford does tongue in cheek.

But he sure made enough of a noise for JV to invite him for some snakeoil and it worked till yesterday.

 

[jam pants]

I'll take Tilford's word over Vaughters any day of the week. Vaughter's may not have the same instinctual disdain for truth as some other GMs, but he sure has a need to control the message.

 

[D-Queued]

Glad to see real people in the cycling world understand the real person Vaughters is:

Now I’m sort of ****ed off about the whole thing. According to the article linked above, Jonathan knew all about Ryder’s drug usage and confession when he was giving me **** publicly for calling Ryder out. What a ***.

http://stevetilford.com/2013/10/31/remorseful-ryder-hesjedal/comment-page-1/#comment-36398

Tilford may feel jilted by JV, but as noted above the situation is more complex given that Ryder was under an employment contract with JV's company. Among other things, JV would be potentially bound by labor laws about making public statements about confidential employee information.

Moreover, there is no proof (and none that I am aware of, where I was aware of proof of prior doping and advised JV as such) that Ryder has doped at Garmin.

Dave.

 

[Von Mises]

Tilford may feel jilted by JV, but as noted above the situation is more complex given that Ryder was under an employment contract with JV's company. Among other things, JV would be potentially bound by labor laws about making public statements about confidential employee information.

Moreover, there is no proof (and none that I am aware of, where I was aware of proof of prior doping and advised JV as such) that Ryder has doped at Garmin.

Dave.

Dont make it too complex. What labor laws, what contracts, who cares, it is internet, everything is allowed here.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Tilford may feel jilted by JV, but as noted above the situation is more complex given that Ryder was under an employment contract with JV's company. Among other things, JV would be potentially bound by labor laws about making public statements about confidential employee information.

Moreover, there is no proof (and none that I am aware of, where I was aware of proof of prior doping and advised JV as such) that Ryder has doped at Garmin.

Dave.

So, how many of the Canadian gang are now busted or have confessed? Four for four?

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Dont make it too complex. What labor laws, what contracts, who cares, it is internet, everything is allowed here.

It should remembered that JV effectively exposed the doping of CVV, DZ and Tommy D here, so the labor law thing is not a runner.

The difference to me is easy - Hejedal discussion came after the USPS case was underway, so he (or they) do not consider that RH has anything of significance to offer there, that they on't already know of.
So what RH was in for is much broader than USPS and is "ongoing" - so telling Tillford (on a forum?) or making it public would not be in the best interest of the investigation.

 

[JimmyFingers]

Ryder had a choice; Rasmussen said he never saw Ryder dope.The easy road would have been to just go with that and lie.Not the choice he took

Latest tweet.

Not an impressive line to take. Doesn't excuse anything, doesn't change the fact that Ryder looks like a systematic doper from an early point during his MTB career (and there seems a lot of anger from that community for him) and unlikely to changed his ways on the road.

 

[Taxus4a]

Best guess 2012-

Certainly not when he was top10 on Ventoux in the Dauphine.

I think Millar can did top ten in Ventoux in dauphiné in a clean cycling.
Not already, his best times has passed for him, but he is still a good rider.

 

[D-Queued]

Dont make it too complex. What labor laws, what contracts, who cares, it is internet, everything is allowed here.

Well, almost everything is allowed here. Finally we can have a real discussion about Dopestrong, here and elsewhere, without excessive censure.

Please note that I have it on good but not definitive authority that Ryder may have provided information to Canadian authorities about his doping prior to, or shortly after joining Garmin.

The information is raw, and he may not have spoken with CCES until 2013 as CCES has advised but, possibly only to CCA. If such a dialog took place, it would make sense given my own insights.*

In any case, Ryder's past doping would not be something that JV would have cause nor freedom to discuss without Ryder's consent.

Even here.

Dave.

*As noted previously, I still believe that while guilty of past doping Ryder was being used very much as a pawn and was not a central figure. This is why he may have had a conversation with some level of authority in Canada.

 

[the sceptic]

Latest tweet.

Not an impressive line to take. Doesn't excuse anything, doesn't change the fact that Ryder looks like a systematic doper from an early point during his MTB career (and there seems a lot of anger from that community for him) and unlikely to changed his ways on the road.

Denying everything and pretending he is another Armstrong was a choice? right.

Ryder isnt some sort of brave saint because he finally came clean about his past. He was backed into a corner.

 

[More Strides than Rides]

Well, almost everything is allowed here. Finally we can have a real discussion about Dopestrong, here and elsewhere, without excessive censure.

Please note that I have it on good but not definitive authority that Ryder may have provided information to Canadian authorities about his doping prior to, or shortly after joining Garmin.

The information is raw, and he may not have spoken with CCES until 2013 as CCES has advised but, possibly only to CCA. If such a dialog took place, it would make sense given my own insights.*

In any case, Ryder's past doping would not be something that JV would have cause nor freedom to discuss without Ryder's consent.

Even here.

Dave.

*As noted previously, I still believe that while guilty of past doping Ryder was being used very much as a pawn and was not a central figure. This is why he may have had a conversation with some level of authority in Canada.

Can you help us with the abbreviations?

 

[Benotti69]

some people out there who are not buying JVs snakeoil...

Geoff Kabush ‏@GeoffKabush 4h

Don't know which is worse; racing against a bunch of dopers or listening now to forced half-*** confessions & bull$&@t team press releases.

jeffvolkmer ‏@jeffvolkmer 3h

One thing comforting thing about Hesjedal is that he stopped doping in ’03, right before he went to Postal. They hate doped riders!


Mike Kaltoft Jensen ‏@MikeKaltoft 2h

Christina Watches has been mocked quite a lot for hiring ex-dopers. Team has 2 riders with doping past (based on what we know). Garmin has7

CyclingUpdates ‏@CyclingUptodate 1h

@Vaughters Im having a hard time believing he was doped in 2003, but stopped using in 2004-2006 at US Postal, Discovery and Phonak.

 

[The Hitch]

Latest tweet.

Not an impressive line to take. Doesn't excuse anything, doesn't change the fact that Ryder looks like a systematic doper from an early point during his MTB career (and there seems a lot of anger from that community for him) and unlikely to changed his ways on the road.

I agree, very strange tweet.

It takes a - be grateful he didn't do worse, line.

I remember ****meister wrote a long piece last year which has since been taken down, ripping into Vaughters mercilessly for his piece in NYT, which ****meister claimed looked as if it had been written by a naive child.

One of the points he made the only reward for doing the right thing, was self satisfaction. He said something along the lines of "thats it, thats the reward, otherwise its not a moral action"

I think that applies here. No Hejsedal should not get + points for not behaving like a total **** and lying outright about never having doped.

I get a similar vibe from the response where he says Hejsedal never lied because he never denied it (instead just never said anything).

Well, come on now. Yeah technicaly a white lie is better than a outright lie. Still thats getting off on a technicality.

 

[Benotti69]

When JV says this,

Jonathan Vaughters ‏@Vaughters 2h

Ryder had a choice; Rasmussen said he never saw Ryder dope.The easy road would have been to just go with that and lie.Not the choice he took

you just know the guy really conisdered this, but there are others out there to point the finger at Hesjedal, probably Bruyneel et al.....

Seems lying is an option always open at garmin.