JV talks, sort of

[blackcat]

how will they manage Housewives of Boulder? How do they do ex-wives. Do eskimos have harems too?

 

[blackcat]

Yet he doesn't think a single of the riders on his team has made the same decision he made himself on C.A.

how does Jens Voigt burying his dope by the roadside in the 98 Tour with Gan square with this narrative? Oh, he was burying his dope like you leave carrots by the fireplace for Santa Claus and his rainbows <strikethru> reindeers, but he was burying them for squirrels and beavers in France, but one beaver is just north american so it was not the north american beaver

 

[blackcat]

Wanting to ride clean on a 'clean' team, yet still feeling the pressure for results and using some of the 'leftover hotsauce'.

the hotsauce he buried by the roadside in 98, oh, i get it now. but this was Jens, and Legeay and Gan and CA, not Nuyens, so I dont get it.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

he broke (?) his hip before joining

But apparently not being **** in the Eneco Tour was enough for Vaughters to overpay him

He broke his hip while at Saxo, yet our Saint signed him.

Make of it what you want.

After his 2011 Flanders win Nick was a pretty popular rider for teams.

Did Saint Jona sign him before he broke his hip or did he not?

Only Saint Jona can answer that question, too bad he is only on twotter these days.

 

[More Strides than Rides]

I think JV would say his mantra is clear.

If you would like to compete clean, we will give you that chance and pay you to do so. If you perform as expected, we will keep you, if not we will let you go. If you feel the need to dope to get results, we don't want you.

If you don't like those options then join some other team.

You guys seem to think that riders join the team thinking they will be kept on indefinitely as long as they ride clean. I highly doubt that.

I'm with you on this. That should always be the culture: we expect you to perform, clean. If you're not performing, you're not with us, (and if you're not clean, you're not with us).

Sure, by stressing performance, you could say that riders may feel implicitly demanded to dope. But that's on them. And the infrastructure/controls.

I don't like the argument that the anti-doping high horse of JV/Garmin becomes hypocritical when he expects riders to perform. Let's say he's a liar about transparency, poor communicator, with suspicious shades of hiding his team's doping. But I won't knock him for expecting his riders to perform, and be clean.

 

[sniper]

I'm with you on this. That should always be the culture: we expect you to perform, clean. If you're not performing, you're not with us, (and if you're not clean, you're not with us).

Sure, by stressing performance, you could say that riders may feel implicitly demanded to dope. But that's on them. And the infrastructure/controls.

I don't like the argument that the anti-doping high horse of JV/Garmin becomes hypocritical when he expects riders to perform. Let's say he's a liar about transparency, poor communicator, with suspicious shades of hiding his team's doping. But I won't knock him for expecting his riders to perform, and be clean.

with JV's background he knows better than anybody that that is a surreal expectation.
you honestly think for a second he believes Ryder won the Giro clean?
Does JV strike you as a fool?

Yes, his and Garmin's mantra is clear, always has been. Question is do you buy it.

 

[More Strides than Rides]

with JV's background he knows better than anybody that that is a surreal expectation.
you honestly think for a second he believes Ryder won the Giro clean?

I think he thinks he does. I'm not psychologist. Analyzing whether it is delusion, suppression of reality, sociopathy, (or outright ignorance) is something I cannot do.

But, just to throw it out there, I do believe that JV is delusional, not maniacal. We all know the types: they'll talk about results from their past, firmly convinced they were a star. Their lies may not even be intentional. We might be a part of their memories, and know for sure that the person's ego has skewed their recollection. People are very susceptible to false memories and false perceptions.

Does JV strike you as a fool?

Yes, his and Garmin's mantra is clear, always has been. Question is do you buy it.

No, he does not strike me as a fool. He strikes me as an extreme personality in the ways that get an athlete to the top: arrogant, delusional and pretentious, but at the same time, with an insecurity that motivates. Maybe he does think Ryder doped, and is too afraid of his own reputation to do anything about it? Maybe he is so insecure about the success of clean cycling that he doesn't realize an implicit message he sends about performance?

Obviously, I'm just speculating. I have no idea the inner workings of JV. The one thing I know for sure is that he is a strange duck.

 

[Benotti69]

........... But I won't knock him for expecting his riders to perform, and be clean.

How does one perform and be clean against teams doping like its 1999?

We see Ferrari never stopped working in cycling, so how do Garmin riders 'perform' clean against those on Ferrari juice or Ibauguren Juice or all the other dping doctors still working inside the sport.

JV is a hypocrite.

 

[More Strides than Rides]

How does one perform and be clean against teams doping like its 1999?

With integrity, commitment, and opportunism.

I buy into the stacked odds. I buy into the impossibility of winning the biggest races clean. It is not hypocrisy though, to expect riders to be clean and perform. You don't need to win the TDF to have performed.

Can a clean rider top 20? Top 10? Top 5 a classic? Maybe not, but I don't see that as a reason for a clean athlete to give up. I don't see that as a reason why clean athletes cannot try.

Some people are into the tear it down and start over, but that doesn't do anything for clean athletes competing right now without the time to wait for the system to get its act together.

 

[sniper]

It is not hypocrisy though, to expect riders to be clean and perform.

where do you get this idea from that JV expects this?
he doesn't.
he tells you he does, and you buy into it.
JV's methods aren't very complicated.

 

[ralphbert]

Wonder what this was about?

@Vaughters thanks for not making that intro I'd req'd. While I was waiting, more serious people reached out, & they'll use the info. Cheers!.

 

[blackcat]

I think he thinks he does. I'm not psychologist. Analyzing whether it is delusion, suppression of reality, sociopathy, (or outright ignorance) is something I cannot do.

But, just to throw it out there, I do believe that JV is delusional, not maniacal. We all know the types: they'll talk about results from their past, firmly convinced they were a star. Their lies may not even be intentional. We might be a part of their memories, and know for sure that the person's ego has skewed their recollection. People are very susceptible to false memories and false perceptions.



No, he does not strike me as a fool. He strikes me as an extreme personality in the ways that get an athlete to the top: arrogant, delusional and pretentious, but at the same time, with an insecurity that motivates. Maybe he does think Ryder doped, and is too afraid of his own reputation to do anything about it? Maybe he is so insecure about the success of clean cycling that he doesn't realize an implicit message he sends about performance?

Obviously, I'm just speculating. I have no idea the inner workings of JV. The one thing I know for sure is that he is a strange duck.

nah, JV just made a rod for his own back. he's none of those things, he just had aspirations that were not viable.

 

[Benotti69]

With integrity, commitment, and opportunism.

I buy into the stacked odds. I buy into the impossibility of winning the biggest races clean. It is not hypocrisy though, to expect riders to be clean and perform. You don't need to win the TDF to have performed.

Can a clean rider top 20? Top 10? Top 5 a classic? Maybe not, but I don't see that as a reason for a clean athlete to give up. I don't see that as a reason why clean athletes cannot try.

Some people are into the tear it down and start over, but that doesn't do anything for clean athletes competing right now without the time to wait for the system to get its act together.

If guys haven't figured out by the age of 21 what is ahead in the pro peloton then they have failed the IQ test.

 

[42x16ss]

Wonder what this was about?

Interesting... I wonder if he's giving USADA more info and wanted JV to give him a contact?

 

[blackcat]

Interesting... I wonder if he's giving USADA more info and wanted JV to give him a contact?

blackmail/greenmail?

yeah, i could see that.

eposino epobonics

 

[DirtyWorks]

Originally Posted by Joe Pap (twitter)
@Vaughters thanks for not making that intro I'd req'd. While I was waiting, more serious people reached out, & they'll use the info. Cheers!.

Wonder what this was about?

My crackpot theory Papp is looking for a reduced ban via the CIRC. In theory, he talked to USADA.

http://velonews.competitor.com/2010...-papp-admits-conspiracy-to-sell-epohgh_105463

http://velonews.competitor.com/2007/05/news/suspended-pro-at-landis-hearing-testosterone-works_12278

 

[Benotti69]

I think JV would say his mantra is clear.

If you would like to compete clean, we will give you that chance and pay you to do so. If you perform as expected, we will keep you, if not we will let you go. If you feel the need to dope to get results, we don't want you.

If you don't like those options then join some other team.

You guys seem to think that riders join the team thinking they will be kept on indefinitely as long as they ride clean. I highly doubt that.

Does JV expect to find 20 odd of the most naturally talented guys, think LeMond, to ride for a pittance at Garmin and race clean and get wins against the likes of Ferrari, Leinders, Ibauguren, etc clients???

Back in the real world JV is just like Riis, Lefevere, Martini, Vino..........

 

[blackcat]

Back in the real world JV is just like Riis, Lefevere, Martini, Vino..........

we still need to be critically rigorous Benotti69, I cant find any truth this.

JV does not encourage and run a program. All those others do.

I dont mind criticism, deserved, of JV, cos he does deserve the criticism for the BS and deflection and dissembling and misdirection and selling Clinic 12 a bill of goods.

But he is about the most, no, he is, HE IS the most reputable owner and manager in the peloton. It is a cess pool. I dont know what JV could do. Even he leaves, it potentially just gets a little worse. So JV is not that bad as you wrote.

But who am I to tell others about hyperbole and lambasting athletes and managers and DSes. That would be hypocritical.

Does blutto or rhubroma or any other polymath know when Sartre writes of bad faith in Being and Nothingness, if you neutralise bad faith by being aware of the acting/role, can one then defuse hypocrisy by admitting to it, and just saying, these are double standards, I can do this because I place myself on a higher plane than the proletariat (you B69), so I can do this and not be a hypocrite


*firmly tongue in jest (sic) and torturing metaphors quite poorly yet using grammar better and worse like sweet and sour pork

 

[Benotti69]

we still need to be critically rigorous Benotti69, I cant find any truth this.

JV does not encourage and run a program. All those others do.

JV apparently runs a rigourous internal testing program, i see this as riders can do as they please and as long as they dont trip the intenral tests, away they go and win a GT and monuments....

I dont mind criticism, deserved, of JV, cos he does deserve the criticism for the BS and deflection and dissembling and misdirection and selling Clinic 12 a bill of goods.

JV, for a guy who has allegedly dedicated his life to anti doping has been very quiet on performance enhancement lately. He deserves ridicule foe all the BS he has spouted, from "no longer cool to dope" and other clangers...

But he is about the most, no, he is, HE IS the most reputable owner and manager in the peloton. It is a cess pool. I dont know what JV could do. Even he leaves, it potentially just gets a little worse. So JV is not that bad as you wrote.

You know what JV could do, he could FRO out of the sport and go take his MBA into the real world and stop trying to pretend the sport has changed. That he keeps trying to sell the sport as 'cleanER' when it isn't, especially with the likes of Riis, MArtinelli, Lefevere et al still in the sport.

 

[D-Queued]

Does JV expect to find 20 odd of the most naturally talented guys, think LeMond, to ride for a pittance at Garmin and race clean and get wins against the likes of Ferrari, Leinders, Ibauguren, etc clients???

Back in the real world JV is just like Riis, Lefevere, Martini, Vino..........

Interesting question.

Are there 20 natural talents like LeMond?

Assuming that there are some folks, though, with reasonable natural talent who would rather race clean, then doesn't it make sense that they would be willing to compromise their salary demands in favor of their ethical stand?

Only if they didn't care about racing clean or not could you make the economic parity argument on the basis of salary alone.

Their remuneration = salary + winnings + sponsorships + (no doping costs) + opportunity to ride without having to dope

Think of (no doping cost) as lower taxes.

This has nothing to do with JV, it is simple economic theory.

JV is offering pay + no doping.

Some people value no doping. For them this is an opportunity value that is not provided with the doping squads (i.e. everyone else). Thus, their remuneration includes both currency and their perceived/opportunity value of not having to dope.

Moreover, it could be that these guys are more likely (higher probability) to get (higher) sponsorship dollars. At least that could be part of their expectation, which would help offset against lower salary demands.

Dave.

 

[Benotti69]

Interesting question.

Are there 20 natural talents like LeMond?

obviously not. JV has gone through a lot of riders.

Assuming that there are some folks, though, with reasonable natural talent who would rather race clean, then doesn't it make sense that they would be willing to compromise their salary demands in favor of their ethical stand?

Only if they didn't care about racing clean or not could you make the economic parity argument on the basis of salary alone.

Their remuneration = salary + winnings + sponsorships + (no doping costs) + opportunity to ride without having to dope

Think of (no doping cost) as lower taxes.

This has nothing to do with JV, it is simple economic theory.

JV is offering pay + no doping.

Some people value no doping. For them this is an opportunity value that is not provided with the doping squads (i.e. everyone else). Thus, their remuneration includes both currency and their perceived/opportunity value of not having to dope.

Moreover, it could be that these guys are more likely (higher probability) to get (higher) sponsorship dollars. At least that could be part of their expectation, which would help offset against lower salary demands.

Dave.

My hunch is most riders would love to race clean, but when faced with reality that everyone dopes, they have 3 choices, leave the pro sport, ride clean and take the huge risk they wont get results (meaning a short career) for contract renewal or dope and stay in the sport.

The culture of the sport is to dope and JV knows that more than anyone. He may offer the choice, but as seen he jettisons those who dont make his grades.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

JV is offering pay + no doping.

And sometimes he even pays it!

 

[roundabout]

Interesting question.

Are there 20 natural talents like LeMond?

Assuming that there are some folks, though, with reasonable natural talent who would rather race clean, then doesn't it make sense that they would be willing to compromise their salary demands in favor of their ethical stand?

Only if they didn't care about racing clean or not could you make the economic parity argument on the basis of salary alone.

Their remuneration = salary + winnings + sponsorships + (no doping costs) + opportunity to ride without having to dope

Think of (no doping cost) as lower taxes.

This has nothing to do with JV, it is simple economic theory.

JV is offering pay + no doping.

Some people value no doping. For them this is an opportunity value that is not provided with the doping squads (i.e. everyone else). Thus, their remuneration includes both currency and their perceived/opportunity value of not having to dope.

Moreover, it could be that these guys are more likely (higher probability) to get (higher) sponsorship dollars. At least that could be part of their expectation, which would help offset against lower salary demands.

Dave.

I dunno. Apart from the perception (real or unwarranted) that Garmin is a cleaner team I don't really see a reason to take a pay cut if I were a rider capable of performing clean at a reasonably high level.

 

[Samson777]

Interesting question.


JV is offering pay + no doping.

Some people value no doping. For them this is an opportunity value that is not provided with the doping squads (i.e. everyone else). Thus, their remuneration includes both currency and their perceived/opportunity value of not having to dope.

Moreover, it could be that these guys are more likely (higher probability) to get (higher) sponsorship dollars. At least that could be part of their expectation, which would help offset against lower salary demands.

Link? I guess Hesjedal didn't get the memo...

 

[blackcat]

Only if they didn't care about racing clean or not could you make the economic parity argument on the basis of salary alone.

Their remuneration = salary + winnings + sponsorships + (no doping costs) + opportunity to ride without having to dope

Think of (no doping cost) as lower taxes.

This has nothing to do with JV, it is simple economic theory.

JV is offering pay + no doping.

the greatest cost that an athlete suffers is not these factors.

it can be seen better in some psychological experients even with other animals, and it is seen in the amateur era.

the cost is borne by one's self, and the ego. It may not even be the popular understanding of "ego", and winning in the amateur era. It is about just deserts. Native ability and recognition for your native talent. so still an external locus, the recognition.

Also, related to above, some human (and even primates, is some psychology study) innate understanding of fairness, and feeling of being cheated out of those just deserts.

your devil's advocate? why does it only work one-way. Why does the athlete not consider by jumping on the train and the red queen effect, to stand still, does he/she not consider those left behind at the station and still clean athletes?

well, the academic experimental psychologists have probably, or should do, the meta study, as why such "fairness" only relates to one direction. a meta study, why when you "have" is fairness never considered, only when you "do not have" does fairness become relevant? One might say, i have just neutralised the appellation used in this context. =/= fairness.


see also Hardie's study on the peloton.
http://www.newcyclingpathway.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/21-NOW-FINAL-.pdf

the premise in one sentence, athletes are doping cos they cant be accepting being cheated out of their rightful place.

ofcourse, this is a logic fallacy. but they are athletes so forgive them not thinking coherently on any other level. What happens for those lost to the sport because they refused to dope? massive barrier to entry, and makes the peloton a self selective sample. What happens when your just rewards, now are designated, in a narrower peloton, a narrower sample, because riders left the sport, and also riders in the peloton, are clean.

that is why any studies on the peloton, and interviewing the peloton, will only get HALF the story. The story by its very definition will never involve the riders who left, or ride domestic in the US clean, or in Australia or NZ. They wont get interviewed will they?

Christophe Bassons is THE EXCEPTION THAT PROVES THE RULE!