Kreuziger going down?

[Dear Wiggo]

RR's twitter:



If correct, the whole case is laughable and RK stands no chance in CAS. Well we knew that already.

so RR Is just quoting the docs published like it's his own thoughts? all this is in the reports, along with explanations s to why it wasn't in fact doping...

say what you will about the explanations, but it is all in there.

 

[Benotti69]

Kreuzinger's HCt went from 43.2 to 48.1 in 10 days DURING the Giro. Not normal and he got beaten by a 'clean' Hesjedal...........

 

[Red Rick]

Well now I see the blood values, he's surely going down.

2 questions remain to me

How is his ban gonna work out. They'll have to strip his results from that time period, but they are gonna want to suspend him

Why the **** did the UCI wait this long with prosecution? The blood values look pretty obvious to me, and they could've prevented all the hassle with backdating and double punishments etc.

I don't think stripping all results since that Giro + 2 year suspension is entirely fair, even though I think he should be banned.

Maybe stripping results from Astana period (or whatever the period with weird blood values was) + 6 months?

 

[the sceptic]

Got to be some politics involved here since the UCI sat on this for so long?

Then you have to wonder how many other cases like this never see the light of day

 

[del1962]

What Roman needs is a night out in Bristol with JTL

 

[Netserk]

Well now I see the blood values, he's surely going down.

2 questions remain to me

How is his ban gonna work out. They'll have to strip his results from that time period, but they are gonna want to suspend him

Why the **** did the UCI wait this long with prosecution? The blood values look pretty obvious to me, and they could've prevented all the hassle with backdating and double punishments etc.

I don't think stripping all results since that Giro + 2 year suspension is entirely fair, even though I think he should be banned.

Maybe stripping results from Astana period (or whatever the period with weird blood values was) + 6 months?

My guess is that he is stripped of his results in the two periods with abnormal values and then a two year ban starting from June/July '14.

 

[TheGame]

two year ban starting from June/July '14.

Ban will start in summer 2013 when he was first informed. He will lose his 112th place in the Tour, Giro 15th place and his stage win, be back racing by the Vuelta

 

[DirtyWorks]

2. No EPO positive from urine tests during Giro
.

Sorry, this is proof of nothing. Current state of the art EPO testing via urinalysis is weak to ineffective. And then there's the pesky problem of EPO variants in production that are understood to evade the test.

 

[Ferminal]

Those 2008 and 2009 numbers are pretty lame, no bags. Wonder if his training partner was on a similarly uncompetitive regime at the time. Again showing that you can be a handy top10er coming off a good EPO base but will never have a chance over three weeks against the baggers in the top5.

 

[neineinei]

Ban will start in summer 2013 when he was first informed. He will lose his 112th place in the Tour, Giro 15th place and his stage win, be back racing by the Vuelta

No, the ban might even start at the date of CAS hearing. It is what the UCI rule book says. CAS was kind to Pellizotti, but he didn't race between being notified by UCI and the CAS hearing. Valjavec was suspended by his team from May 2010, was cleared by his federation 30 July and raced again in the autumn. His ban ran from 20 January 2011.

 

[TomasC]

so RR Is just quoting the docs published like it's his own thoughts? all this is in the reports, along with explanations s to why it wasn't in fact doping...

say what you will about the explanations, but it is all in there.

I don't think he presents it as his own thoughts. And I quoted it here at the time when we did not have dates/values graphs here as an information from somebody that probably had read more of the reports at the moment.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

I don't think he presents it as his own thoughts. And I quoted it here at the time when we did not have dates/values graphs here as an information from somebody that probably had read more of the reports at the moment.

Fair enough. I read the report, which is how I knew what he was writing was a repeat of the report.

Just seemed strange to not link to the source (?) but then perhaps not so strange.

 

[Ferminal]

You're a bit slow.

 

[PeterB]

This is where his explanation breaks down. The fact that there wasn't a positive for EPO is irrelevant, and therefore #1 can easily be explained by microdosing.

CAS will have a very easy task if this is what Kreuziger has.

Either way, as has been mentioned previously, CAS decision on this will serve as a crucial indicator of UCI ability to use ABP as a basis for chasing future (and past) dopers, especially in such more subtle cases in which threshold values were not exceeded.

But then if CAS upholds UCI's claims, why don't we see more of this? Are we supposed to believe that there were no more blood bags taken by other riders in Grand Tours? Or were the others just lucky they were not tested on the right (wrong) days? If it would make sense to test every relevant rider towards the end of the GT to check the Hgb/Hct trend - is this done? If yes (GC leaders probably are tested) and if similar suspicious patterns are not observed, I would be much relieved, at least that blood bags are no more used during the GTs.

There's also another question I can not answer to myself: Did Kreuziger have any incentive to take blood bag at that Giro moment? Both yes and no.

Yes, because he needed to improve his reputation by winning at least the stage. And because Vinokourov was at the finish and welcomed the performance of his teammate. "This is the response of a true champion,".

On the other hand, the GC battle was over for him. Would he really take the risk of being caught just to earn the stage win? Especially if Astana DS Martinelli said a few days before: "We didn't bring Kreuziger for a stage win. We brought him for the podium. We got the stage win we wanted with Paolo Tiralongo."

quotes are from http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/kreuziger-not-consoled-by-giro-stage-win

 

[hrotha]

No, we're to believe other dopers weren't as blatant or stupid as Kreuziger and actually did what has to be done to mask their transfusions. We've seen the blood profiles of other dopers, and shady as they were, they managed to not look this bad.

As for the incentive to dope, maybe Kreuziger doesn't need any, beyond "I'm a pro cyclist and I've doped all my life without a problem."

 

[TomasC]

No, we're to believe other dopers weren't as blatant or stupid as Kreuziger and actually did what has to be done to mask their transfusions. We've seen the blood profiles of other dopers, and shady as they were, they managed to not look this bad.

As for the incentive to dope, maybe Kreuziger doesn't need any, beyond "I'm a pro cyclist and I've doped all my life without a problem."

This. And he probably didn't want to just flush his GC blood bag down the toilet

 

[Benotti69]

.....snipped.....

There's also another question I can not answer to myself: Did Kreuziger have any incentive to take blood bag at that Giro moment? Both yes and no.

Yes, because he needed to improve his reputation by winning at least the stage. And because Vinokourov was at the finish and welcomed the performance of his teammate. "This is the response of a true champion,".

On the other hand, the GC battle was over for him. Would he really take the risk of being caught just to earn the stage win? Especially if Astana DS Martinelli said a few days before: "We didn't bring Kreuziger for a stage win. We brought him for the podium. We got the stage win we wanted with Paolo Tiralongo."

quotes are from http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/kreuziger-not-consoled-by-giro-stage-win

I think the link is Kreuziger was riding for Vino.

My guess is Vino has been targetted. why? I dont know, maybe Vino wants to be president of UCI after Cookson and this is how they head him off at the pass.

 

[del1962]

I think the link is Kreuziger was riding for Vino.

My guess is Vino has been targetted. why? I dont know, maybe Vino wants to be president of UCI after Cookson and this is how they head him off at the pass.

So Benotti, what place do you think Vino should have in the sport, if any?

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

So Benotti, what place do you think Vino should have in the sport, if any?

Well, he did become Olympic Champion in London in a race designed for an English winner, buying of a rider employed by a British team, so, do you think he peeeed off British Cycling?

Vino is king of kings, even as a junior, when a lot of forumites here weren' t even following cyclisme a deux vitesses...

And, to be frank, I didnt even like him as a rider, he is just to beliked because he is so unliked.

 

[MatParker117]

Well now I see the blood values, he's surely going down.

2 questions remain to me

How is his ban gonna work out. They'll have to strip his results from that time period, but they are gonna want to suspend him

Why the **** did the UCI wait this long with prosecution? The blood values look pretty obvious to me, and they could've prevented all the hassle with backdating and double punishments etc.

I don't think stripping all results since that Giro + 2 year suspension is entirely fair, even though I think he should be banned.

Maybe stripping results from Astana period (or whatever the period with weird blood values was) + 6 months?

Four year ban and results stripped from March 2011. Which means Kruijswijk, Valverde and Hesjedal get some wins.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Four year ban and results stripped from March 2011. Which means Kruijswijk, Valverde and Hesjedal get some wins.

Why four years? Not eight? Twenty?

 

[Benotti69]

So Benotti, what place do you think Vino should have in the sport, if any?

There is only 1 obvious place in the sport for Vino.


Head of CyclingGB/Team Sky.

 

[MatParker117]

Why four years? Not eight? Twenty?

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/wada-approves-four-year-bans-for-doping

 

[LaFlorecita]

Four year ban and results stripped from March 2011. Which means Kruijswijk, Valverde and Hesjedal get some wins.

yeah, so effectively a 8 year ban. As if they could justify that.

 

[MatParker117]

yeah, so effectively a 8 year ban. As if they could justify that.

I assume CAS would backdate it.