Last clean Grand Tour winner?

[ravens]

contador
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[Anonymous]

Just a question to everyone here.

General view is Lemond didn't dope.
However, blood doping has potentially been around since the 70s and was replaced in the 90s by EPO as dope of choice.
Blood doping can increase VO2 max
Gregory has a VO2 max of 93
Ashenden said a VO2 above 90 is "physiologically impossible"
Whats the conclusion?

I trust Lemond to be clean, but just say he blood doped for his VO2 test. That way, he posts his result of 93 and then "proves" to everyone that he is "naturally" gifted and therefore need not dope. At the tour, he blood dopes for his wins and no-one questions him becoz he's the most naturally gifted guy ever right? You know the whole VO2 of 93 and all....

NOTE: The blue italic part IS NOT MY VIEW. It's just a thought experiment that I would like people to comment on. Please to not blast me here for questioning Lemond as he is well liked on these forums. Please be civil, and don't shoot the messenger here, but some d-bag could easily come up with this train of thought so I thought I would ask (you know, coz i'm a respected poster and all). Thanks

 

[auscyclefan94]

Saw Cadel on TV the other day. His face has that overly-masculated quality that some steroid abusers get -thickened, abundant Jaw, brow, chin and nose. If you look at comparative pictures, his whole head is significantly bigger than it was 5 years ago too. He may not be a blood doper, but I'd bet my car that he's been on a on testosterone, HGH, or some other hormone affecting substances for some time.

Please tell me how it is overly masculated. I know people who have similar features to him such as havin the big jay line but that does not mean their on PED's. Look at his Dad picture in his book.Very big jaw line and nose like him.

 

[red_flanders]

The evidence against him essentially consists of: Everyone else was doing it so he probably did, He beat people who were doing it, If he had been he could have got away with it easily given the omerta and limited scrutiny at the time, oh and of course the famous "iron" injection during the Giro which resulted in a sudden dramatic improvement. (That last one I only heard about on these boards-so infer from that what you will)

Now under normal circumstances that is no proof. However if you assume all cyclists are guilty, it is all the proof you need as it becomes impossible to subsequently prove his innocence. That's what really bugs me.

Bugs me too, as there is not one shred of evidence in what you have posted. There is speculation, supposition, interpretation. No evidence, and certainly a hysterically long way from proof.

It's an almost unique situation on the board with regard to Lemond. You get the occasional frustrated Lance fan who just has to believe Lemond's lying, and they generally are left with the "well he must have" take, as there is no evidence that I've ever seen.

Almost every other cyclist I've seen accused of doping on this board actually seems to have some evidence against them. Exception lately is Cav, who "just must be".

It's possible Lemond doped. I've never seen one bit of evidence that he did, and I've heard a lot of riders and coaches say he was clean as clean could be.

 

[red_flanders]

Just a question to everyone here.

General view is Lemond didn't dope.
However, blood doping has potentially been around since the 70s and was replaced in the 90s by EPO as dope of choice.
Blood doping can increase VO2 max
Gregory has a VO2 max of 93
Ashenden said a VO2 above 90 is "physiologically impossible"
Whats the conclusion?

I trust Lemond to be clean, but just say he blood doped for his VO2 test. That way, he posts his result of 93 and then "proves" to everyone that he is "naturally" gifted and therefore need not dope. At the tour, he blood dopes for his wins and no-one questions him becoz he's the most naturally gifted guy ever right? You know the whole VO2 of 93 and all....

NOTE: The blue italic part IS NOT MY VIEW. It's just a thought experiment that I would like people to comment on. Please to not blast me here for questioning Lemond as he is well liked on these forums. Please be civil, and don't shoot the messenger here, but some d-bag could easily come up with this train of thought so I thought I would ask (you know, coz i'm a respected poster and all). Thanks

It's definitely possible. But then anything is possible.

There's not one bit of evidence to support it, so it really becomes slanderous speculation IMO.

I'd say that theory is about as valid as "the French tampered with my samples" theory. I'm not blasting you, just giving you my take on what you've proposed.

I don't think the accusations against riders who have no evidence against them are very worthwhile, myself. Doesn't mean they're clean, just don't see the point. I'm not saying you're accusing him of anything BTW, but the discussion thereof inevitably will be repeated later by someone acting like possibility is fact.

 

[Willy_Voet]

Saw Cadel on TV the other day. His face has that overly-masculated quality that some steroid abusers get -thickened, abundant Jaw, brow, chin and nose. If you look at comparative pictures, his whole head is significantly bigger than it was 5 years ago too. He may not be a blood doper, but I'd bet my car that he's been on a on testosterone, HGH, or some other hormone affecting substances for some time.

overly-masculated?!?! He talks like a girl. LOL.

 

[Big GMaC]

overly-masculated?!?! He talks like a girl. LOL.

but so does ronnie coleman...

 

[poupou]

Just a question to everyone here.

General view is Lemond didn't dope.
However, blood doping has potentially been around since the 70s and was replaced in the 90s by EPO as dope of choice.
Blood doping can increase VO2 max
Gregory has a VO2 max of 93
Ashenden said a VO2 above 90 is "physiologically impossible"
Whats the conclusion?

I trust Lemond to be clean, but just say he blood doped for his VO2 test. That way, he posts his result of 93 and then "proves" to everyone that he is "naturally" gifted and therefore need not dope. At the tour, he blood dopes for his wins and no-one questions him becoz he's the most naturally gifted guy ever right? You know the whole VO2 of 93 and all....

NOTE: The blue italic part IS NOT MY VIEW. It's just a thought experiment that I would like people to comment on. Please to not blast me here for questioning Lemond as he is well liked on these forums. Please be civil, and don't shoot the messenger here, but some d-bag could easily come up with this train of thought so I thought I would ask (you know, coz i'm a respected poster and all). Thanks

Blood doping increase slightly performance (around 15-20% without other PED), so should have been a bad rider before using blood doping.

What about the equipment necessary to blood dope during TDF in 1984 ?

 

[Galic Ho]

The only rider who exempt from the above rules is Greg Lemond. This may be because:
A) He had a VO2 Max higher than a sled dog doing the Iditarod
B) He hates Lance Armstong
C) He sounds a bit like Kermit the Frog

Huskiers have a V02 max in the vicinity of 240 ml/min/kg. Thoroughbred race horses have one of 180. Lemond topped out at 94. Don't think the bold sticks.

 

[Galic Ho]

but so does ronnie coleman...

I've heard a number of posters poke fun or a place a nice jibe at GC cyclists jawline, nose and foreheads by suggesting HGH abuse. I should add I didn't agree and couldn't personally recognise any visual cue to tip me off. Until this picture. If the facial structure is natural, I am shocked.

 

[Cerberus]

I've heard a number of posters poke fun or a place a nice jibe at GC cyclists jawline, nose and foreheads by suggesting HGH abuse. I should add I didn't agree and couldn't personally recognise any visual cue to tip me off. Until this picture. If the facial structure is natural, I am shocked.

No part of that "structure", face or other, looks natural.

 

[auscyclefan94]

I've heard a number of posters poke fun or a place a nice jibe at GC cyclists jawline, nose and foreheads by suggesting HGH abuse. I should add I didn't agree and couldn't personally recognise any visual cue to tip me off. Until this picture. If the facial structure is natural, I am shocked.

I'm gonna throw up looking at that pic.

 

[SirLes]

Huskiers have a V02 max in the vicinity of 240 ml/min/kg. Thoroughbred race horses have one of 180. Lemond topped out at 94. Don't think the bold sticks.

Ok so I exaggerated a tiny bit!

I take it the Kermit part does though!!!

Lemond was actually one of my favourite riders actually but he did always remind me of Kermit!

 

[Race Radio]

There is zero evidence of ANY Grand Tour riders using Blood doping in the 80's. None.

There were plenty of clean riders in the 80's. Charly Mottet won races and finished in the top 5 of the Tour riding clean. Yes, there was doping but in races like the Tour most products could be easily tested for. What wasn't, Test and Cortisone, did not give a huge benefit. It was possible to ride and win clean as there were no products like EPO that gave users a 8-15% increase in output.

 

[Joey_J]

Yes, there was blood doping in the 80's

Actually, there is plenty of evidence of blood doping in the 80’s. A reasonable person would say "proof"…

In 1981, Dr Conconi introduced organized blood doping (and other sports medicine) to many athletes, cycling, track & field and others. He and Dr Ferrari worked with Moser beginning in 1983, if not earlier. In 1984, Moser broke the hour record, won MSR and then the Giro, his only GT victory. Moser later admitted to blood doping in 1984.

>Moser later admitted to blood doping in 1984<

In 1983, Eddie B, US National coach and LeMond’s former coach, worried that Europe was gaining the advantage by the use of blood doping. He pitched a blood doping program to the USA cycling higher-ups, but was rebuked. Eddie B, still carried out a make-shift blood doping program that brought unprecedented success to US athletes in the 1984 Olympics. This is no secret and many cyclists confirm their blood doping in the 1984 Olympics.

 

[poupou]

Actually, there is plenty of evidence of blood doping in the 80’s. A reasonable person would say "proof"…

In 1981, Dr Conconi introduced organized blood doping (and other sports medicine) to many athletes, cycling, track & field and others. He and Dr Ferrari worked with Moser beginning in 1983, if not earlier. In 1984, Moser broke the hour record, won MSR and then the Giro, his only GT victory. Moser later admitted to blood doping in 1984.

Moser won GIRO mostly because a major mountain stages was shortened
and he used lenticular wheel in the last ITT

 

[Joey_J]

That doesn't change the fact that he was blood doping, which is the point of the thread. Moser would also go on to "podium" the next 2 Giros.

 

[mustachestaff]

I found a link of a previous thread on this topic, not the same, but similar.

http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showthread.php?t=377

hey, thanks for digging this up. I've only followed road racing for about the past year and at first bought into Armstrong's lies, choosing to ignore is Ferrari associations. I found some Armstrong-era TdF DVD's at my local library and saw Lance leave known dopers in his dust and realized that there was no way he did this clean. when I posted this thread, I was thinking Lemond but hoped someone would provide an argument for Sastre being clean. It's threads like this that make me wonder why any of us follow pro cyling at all. Is there any hope for the future of sport (besides ignorance)?

Also, I'd like to know if this guy was clean.....http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=suMuVizFe4U

 

[Oldman]

Actually, there is plenty of evidence of blood doping in the 80’s. A reasonable person would say "proof"…

In 1981, Dr Conconi introduced organized blood doping (and other sports medicine) to many athletes, cycling, track & field and others. He and Dr Ferrari worked with Moser beginning in 1983, if not earlier. In 1984, Moser broke the hour record, won MSR and then the Giro, his only GT victory. Moser later admitted to blood doping in 1984.

>Moser later admitted to blood doping in 1984<

In 1983, Eddie B, US National coach and LeMond’s former coach, worried that Europe was gaining the advantage by the use of blood doping. He pitched a blood doping program to the USA cycling higher-ups, but was rebuked. Eddie B, still carried out a make-shift blood doping program that brought unprecedented success to US athletes in the 1984 Olympics. This is no secret and many cyclists confirm their blood doping in the 1984 Olympics.

It was legal under IOC rules at that time and probably UCI. However, Mr. B didn't stop at that nor did his disciples at USACycling. That was the serious kick-off point for Program riders from the US. Aside from Alexi Grewal's admission to using PED's, I wonder what other graduates of that era could disclose. Note 7-11 started winning stage in their first Tour soon after.

 

[Race Radio]

Actually, there is plenty of evidence of blood doping in the 80’s. A reasonable person would say "proof"…

In 1981, Dr Conconi introduced organized blood doping (and other sports medicine) to many athletes, cycling, track & field and others. He and Dr Ferrari worked with Moser beginning in 1983, if not earlier. In 1984, Moser broke the hour record, won MSR and then the Giro, his only GT victory. Moser later admitted to blood doping in 1984.

>Moser later admitted to blood doping in 1984<

In 1983, Eddie B, US National coach and LeMond’s former coach, worried that Europe was gaining the advantage by the use of blood doping. He pitched a blood doping program to the USA cycling higher-ups, but was rebuked. Eddie B, still carried out a make-shift blood doping program that brought unprecedented success to US athletes in the 1984 Olympics. This is no secret and many cyclists confirm their blood doping in the 1984 Olympics.

There is zero evidence of a Grand Tour rider using Blood doping in the 80's.

Moser used it for his hour record but Conconi thought it was too dangerous to use outside a controlled environment. It was only the track riders that used it in 1984. Greg moved to Europe at 19 and had little contact with Eddie B after this. He was coached by Paul Kochli and later Adrie Van Diemen (Current coach of David Miller and VDV)

 

[Escarabajo]

That doesn't change the fact that he was blood doping, which is the point of the thread. Moser would also go on to "podium" the next 2 Giros.

For the hour record, not for the Giro, where do you get your information from? and please don't tell me about the hour record again.
Thanks.

 

[ChrisE]

There is zero evidence of a Grand Tour rider using Blood doping in the 80's.

Moser used it for his hour record but Conconi thought it was too dangerous to use outside a controlled environment. It was only the track riders that used it in 1984. Greg moved to Europe at 19 and had little contact with Eddie B after this. He was coached by Paul Kochli and later Adrie Van Diemen (Current coach of David Miller and VDV)

Can you give a link or something to this? You guys seem so absolute "no tour rider blood doped in the 80's", as if they had a special jersey that would say "look at me, I'm blood doping" they picked up at the podium each day if they were doing it.

And, please define "controlled environment". Obviously Conconi was wrong, or the roads of France, Italy, and Spain became more "controllable" after the 80's Thanks.

Always good to throw yardstick into the mix, and posterboy Miller when defining one's cleanliness.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Actually, there is plenty of evidence of blood doping in the 80’s. A reasonable person would say "proof"…

In 1981, Dr Conconi introduced organized blood doping (and other sports medicine) to many athletes, cycling, track & field and others. He and Dr Ferrari worked with Moser beginning in 1983, if not earlier. In 1984, Moser broke the hour record, won MSR and then the Giro, his only GT victory. Moser later admitted to blood doping in 1984.

>Moser later admitted to blood doping in 1984<

In 1983, Eddie B, US National coach and LeMond’s former coach, worried that Europe was gaining the advantage by the use of blood doping. He pitched a blood doping program to the USA cycling higher-ups, but was rebuked. Eddie B, still carried out a make-shift blood doping program that brought unprecedented success to US athletes in the 1984 Olympics. This is no secret and many cyclists confirm their blood doping in the 1984 Olympics.

Well this is new!
Can you point to where exactly Eddie B was refering to when he said "Europe was gaining an advantage" by the use of blood doping in cycling (in 1983)?

My memory was after 1984 the cycling community in the USA was claiming they were at the forefront of 'smarter' training by employing (IIRC) Dr. Burke with their blood 'techniques'.

Also:
which sports athletes was Dr. Conconi blood doping in in 1981?

 

[Race Radio]

Can you give a link or something to this? You guys seem so absolute "no tour rider blood doped in the 80's", as if they had a special jersey that would say "look at me, I'm blood doping" they picked up at the podium each day if they were doing it.

And, please define "controlled environment". Obviously Conconi was wrong, or the roads of France, Italy, and Spain became more "controllable" after the 80's Thanks.

Always good to throw yardstick into the mix, and posterboy Miller when defining one's cleanliness.

you can read about the methods used on Moser in this book
http://www.amazon.com/Mosers-Hour-Records-Scientific-Adventure/dp/0941950263

"Controlled environment" ? You appear not to know the difference between a one hour TT on the track and a 3 week stage race with multiple 6 hour days in the alps with 90 degree heat. Conconi thought that this was too risky as blood doping increased blood pressure.

Do you have any evidence of blood doping with GT riders in the 80's?

 

[ChrisE]

you can read about the methods used on Moser in this book
http://www.amazon.com/Mosers-Hour-Records-Scientific-Adventure/dp/0941950263

"Controlled environment" ? You appear not to know the difference between a one hour TT on the track and a 3 week stage race with multiple 6 hour days in the alps with 90 degree heat. Conconi thought that this was too risky as blood doping increased blood pressure.

Do you have any evidence of blood doping with GT riders in the 80's?

No, I was just commenting on how absolute you were on there not being blood doping in the 80's. The reason must be in the book, but Conconi wasn't the only doc around. I just don't get it sometimes when people just "know" something, without actually being there with these people 24/7 for 10 years.

I didn't know what you meant by "controlled environment". It could have meant it was too risky to get caught doing it in hotels, etc. Actually, that is what I concluded your meaning was initially.