Last clean Grand Tour winner?

[Race Radio]

No, I was just commenting on how absolute you were on there not being blood doping in the 80's. The reason must be in the book, but Conconi wasn't the only doc around. I just don't get it sometimes when people just "know" something, without actually being there with these people 24/7 for 10 years.

I didn't know what you meant by "controlled environment". It could have meant it was too risky to get caught doing it in hotels, etc. Actually, that is what I concluded your meaning was initially.

I wrote

There is zero evidence of ANY Grand Tour riders using Blood doping in the 80's. None.

If you disagree then please give us some evidence to support your position.

 

[ChrisE]

If you disagree then please give us some evidence to support your position.

Fair enough. On first reading I missed the word "evidence". But, Joey provided evidence that Moser used it in the 80's, though maybe there is no specific piece of hard evidence he used it in the Giro, especially taking into account what I assume the book you referenced says.

Concini was one doctor among many, among many cyclists in the 80's, when anti-doping fervor was nowhere near what it has been since then. Since blood doping was used for the hour record and in 84 Olympics, to totally discount the possibility that GT riders may have used it based upon what he says seems alot to hang one's hat on. I think alot of people in the sport lie about what goes on, and the extent. Maybe Concini has Moser's back in terms of Giro success?

I'm not sure if you are totally of the position; I'm not. We've disagreed before and I enjoy those disagreements. Take care.

 

[zapata]

Just read in the new Pro Cycling Magazine that "Gastone Nencini, the winner of the 1960 Tour de France, was discovered in his bedroom transfusing his own blood with tubes running from each arm. It wasn't illegal at the time." 1960!? that is shocking to me. Anybody know anything about this?

 

[Race Radio]

Just read in the new Pro Cycling Magazine that "Gastone Nencini, the winner of the 1960 Tour de France, was discovered in his bedroom transfusing his own blood with tubes running from each arm. It wasn't illegal at the time." 1960!? that is shocking to me. Anybody know anything about this?

This is an often miss-translated story.

http://www.cndp.fr/RevueTDC/858-66034.htm

L’année suivante, en 1960, le Dr Pierre Dumas, médecin du Tour de France, en entrant dans la chambre du champion italien Gastone Nencini, le trouve allongé sur son lit, « les deux bras reliés à un bocal, se prêtant à une double perfusion de sérum à base d’hormones mâles ».

'The following year, in 1960, Dr. Pierre Dumas, doctor of the Tour de France, entering the room of the Italian champion Gastone Nencini, found lying on his bed, "the two arms connected to a jar, suitable for a double infusion of serum-based male hormones. "

Nencini was attempting an early version of testosterone.

Edit: I seem my link no longer works. Here is another one

http://books.google.fr/books?id=RjAInSNJkbYC&pg=RA1-PA896&lpg=RA1-PA896#v=onepage&q=&f=false

 

[Race Radio]

Fair enough. On first reading I missed the word "evidence". But, Joey provided evidence that Moser used it in the 80's, though maybe there is no specific piece of hard evidence he used it in the Giro, especially taking into account what I assume the book you referenced says.

Concini was one doctor among many, among many cyclists in the 80's, when anti-doping fervor was nowhere near what it has been since then. Since blood doping was used for the hour record and in 84 Olympics, to totally discount the possibility that GT riders may have used it based upon what he says seems alot to hang one's hat on. I think alot of people in the sport lie about what goes on, and the extent. Maybe Concini has Moser's back in terms of Giro success?

I'm not sure if you are totally of the position; I'm not. We've disagreed before and I enjoy those disagreements. Take care.

Conconi's book goes into detail of how exactly they prepared for the hour record. He talks about why they used blood doping for the hour record and not for the Giro.

Many books have been written about doping in the sport in the 80's. Many riders have talked about doping in the 80's. None have mentioned Blood doping by GT riders. At the time it was thought of as too dangerous for a three week tour with multiple hot, high mountain stages.

There is plenty of evidence that blood doping was used by track riders in the 80's, but there is none that it was used by GT riders.

 

[zapata]

Oh! Thank you. I thought they were talking about an autologous tranfusion, and that in 1960 he would have been a bit ahead of his time..

 

[poupou]

Oh! Thank you. I thought they were talking about an autologous tranfusion, and that in 1960 he would have been a bit ahead of his time..

I suppose that blood transfusion requires a lot of technical equipment that it was not possible in 1960 to bring in a hotel room.

 

[Polish]

Blood tranfusions have been around for 100years+....
Blood Bags and centrifuges were available in the 1950s...
It would not suprise me if rider(s) started "blood doping" in the 1960's...
It would not suprise me if rider(s) continued to "blood dope" in the 70's...
It does not suprise me that there was widespread "blood doping" by the 1980's,
with EPO "blood doping" starting in the late 1980's...

I would be suprised, however, if "blood doping" did not begin in the GT's until the 90's.

http://www.bloodbook.com/trans-history.html

"If it doesn't show up in the hotel trash bins, then it's not doping,"

 

[Race Radio]

Blood tranfusions have been around for 100years+....
Blood Bags and centrifuges were available in the 1950s...
It would not suprise me if rider(s) started "blood doping" in the 1960's...
It would not suprise me if rider(s) continued to "blood dope" in the 70's...
It does not suprise me that there was widespread "blood doping" by the 1980's,
with EPO "blood doping" starting in the late 1980's...

I would be suprised, however, if "blood doping" did not begin in the GT's until the 90's.

http://www.bloodbook.com/trans-history.html

"If it doesn't show up in the hotel trash bins, then it's not doping,"

If it was widespread then surely you can find some, any, evidence of it.

 

[Escarabajo]

Blood tranfusions have been around for 100years+....
Blood Bags and centrifuges were available in the 1950s...
It would not suprise me if rider(s) started "blood doping" in the 1960's...
It would not suprise me if rider(s) continued to "blood dope" in the 70's...
It does not suprise me that there was widespread "blood doping" by the 1980's,
with EPO "blood doping" starting in the late 1980's...

I would be suprised, however, if "blood doping" did not begin in the GT's until the 90's.

http://www.bloodbook.com/trans-history.html

"If it doesn't show up in the hotel trash bins, then it's not doping,"

That was exactly the number I was looking for, 42 days. This is practically the shelf life of the blood. It started in 1983.

Now, it looks like at the present time there is better technology which has been said in other threads (Which I don't remember which ones), you can have a Blood Bag shelf life longer than 6 months. Look for details somewhere else so we can all learn. Big Boat have said that blood can be stored for even years, but I am not sure who is willing to do a blood transfusion with such a long shelf life.

 

[Polish]

If it was widespread then surely you can find some, any, evidence of it.

Widespread equal moser & olympics. Widespread equal already down the learning curve from the 70's and 60's..

The wiki "doping in cycling" page says epo blood doping in the late 80's

But I have no problem with a person believing that "The 80's GTs never failed a blood doping test, therefore the 80's are clean".

Or how about "the 80's were the most tested decade ever"

 

[Race Radio]

Widespread equal moser & olympics. Widespread equal already down the learning curve from the 70's and 60's..

The wiki "doping in cycling" page says epo blood doping in the late 80's

But I have no problem with a person believing that "The 80's GTs never failed a blood doping test, therefore the 80's are clean".

Or how about "the 80's were the most tested decade ever"

Look, we know that part of your shtick is to play stupid but we are talking about Grand Tour's, not track races.

In case you did not know these are three week races, often held in extreme heat, with multiple big climbing days. The races you are referring to are track races, some lasting 4 minutes.

Let us know when you find any evidence of GT riders using bags of blood in the 80's.

 

[ChrisE]

Look, we know that part of your shtick is to play stupid but we are talking about Grand Tour's, not track races.

In case you did not know these are three week races, often held in extreme heat, with multiple big climbing days. The races you are referring to are track races, some lasting 4 minutes.

Let us know when you find any evidence of GT riders using bags of blood in the 80's.

Yeah, but we now know the "no blood doping due to extreme heat/climbing" is completely 100% wrong.

Do you have a link when the smart doctors in the 80's realized this? I'm sure you have it down to exact date and time, right? If Concini didn't publish it in a book then our heads go in the sand?

You are using a BS theory proven wrong to say something didn't happen in a certain timeline, but obviously it was found to be wrong at some point. You are asking polish and me to provide proof of something. I am asking you to provide proof exactly when the theory was proven wrong. You've already ruled out anything before Dec 31, 1989, so there must be proof of that somewhere. Please provide links. Thanks.

 

[Oldman]

There is zero evidence of a Grand Tour rider using Blood doping in the 80's.

Moser used it for his hour record but Conconi thought it was too dangerous to use outside a controlled environment. It was only the track riders that used it in 1984. Greg moved to Europe at 19 and had little contact with Eddie B after this. He was coached by Paul Kochli and later Adrie Van Diemen (Current coach of David Miller and VDV)

I would agree on Lemond with respect to Eddie B. I'm talking about the 7-11, Motorola offshoots. While again, IMO they wouldn't try blood doping in a GT from a logistical standpoint; this was about the last clean gt performance. I'm still staying with Mottet and Hampsten, who did not win. All others that were performing well in '83 on...may not have been onto EPO or blood doping. They were likely on the juice de jour. Conconi and his track experiment/rats are another thing as most folks have pointed out.

 

[Escarabajo]

Yeah, but we now know the "no blood doping due to extreme heat/climbing" is completely 100% wrong.

Do you have a link when the smart doctors in the 80's realized this? I'm sure you have it down to exact date and time, right? If Concini didn't publish it in a book then our heads go in the sand?

You are using a BS theory proven wrong to say something didn't happen in a certain timeline, but obviously it was found to be wrong at some point. You are asking polish and me to provide proof of something. I am asking you to provide proof exactly when the theory was proven wrong. You've already ruled out anything before Dec 31, 1989, so there must be proof of that somewhere. Please provide links. Thanks.

Why does RR have to provide any proof? Is the other way around, you remember? The system does not work backwards, it goes from being innocent to guilty, that's why we have been debating EPO and blood doping during the 90's and 00's because we have information to prove it, you need to provide proof of blood doping during the GT's, period. Until you have this proof we can not argue anymore.
Thanks.

 

[ChrisE]

Why does RR have to provide any proof? Is the other way around, you remember? The system does not work backwards, it goes from being innocent to guilty, that's why we have been debating EPO and blood doping during the 90's and 00's because we have information to prove it, you need to provide proof of blood doping during the GT's, period. Until you have this proof we can not argue anymore.
Thanks.

I asked a simple question.....what date exactly did a GT rider start blood doping? Surely that date is known.

You guys are saying Concini's proof was he didn't blood dope Moser. OK, whatever. The guy could be lying, who knows? What about the other riders/years?

You are hanging your hat on that. When is the first proof? Then, we can debate on time previous to that, until New Years Eve 1990 that is.

 

[BroDeal]

Now, it looks like at the present time there is better technology which has been said in other threads (Which I don't remember which ones), you can have a Blood Bag shelf life longer than 6 months. Look for details somewhere else so we can all learn. Big Boat have said that blood can be stored for even years, but I am not sure who is willing to do a blood transfusion with such a long shelf life.

Red blood cells can be frozen and stored for ten years. A glycerol solution is used to prevent cell damage.

Without EPO, I cannot see that autologous transfusions of non-frozen blood would be that effective for a GT. Using other people's blood would have been crazy risky in the early 80s. The U.S. began testing for HIV in the mid 80s. Other variations of HIV and AIDS variants were not tested for until into the mid 90s.

 

[I Watch Cycling In July]

Interesting debate, I always wondered why people were so sure that blood doping wasn't really done in GT's in the 80s.

Was there reason at all for people to talk about blood doping for track, but not for GTs? It wasn't legal in one and banned in the other or anything weird like that?

If not, then IMO the fact that blood doping for track has been well documented, but there is no record of it for GT's, gives a pretty good indication that it didn't happen.

 

[Polish]

I asked a simple question.....what date exactly did a GT rider start blood doping? Surely that date is known.

When is the first proof? Then, we can debate on time previous to that, until New Years Eve 1990 that is.

I say proof exists of blood doping in the 1989 TdF.
However, it would not suprise me if riders were blood doping before then - but went undetected.

Proof of 1989 doping:

"One of them was Johannes Draaijer, a 27-year-old racer from the Netherlands who finished 20th in the 1989 Tour de France. In February 1990 he died in his sleep of a heart blockage a few days after completing a race in Italy."

http://www.nytimes.com/1991/05/19/u...linked-to-athletes-deaths.html?pagewanted=all

 

[Escarabajo]

I say proof exists of blood doping in the 1989 TdF.
However, it would not suprise me if riders were blood doping before then - but went undetected.

Proof of 1989 doping:

"One of them was Johannes Draaijer, a 27-year-old racer from the Netherlands who finished 20th in the 1989 Tour de France. In February 1990 he died in his sleep of a heart blockage a few days after completing a race in Italy."

http://www.nytimes.com/1991/05/19/u...linked-to-athletes-deaths.html?pagewanted=all

Physicians say they believe athletes began using the drug almost with the beginning of clinical trials in 1986. Then the deaths began. In 1987 five Dutch racers died suddenly. In 1988 a Belgian and two more Dutch riders died. In 1989 five more Dutch riders died, and last year three Belgians and two Dutch riders died. Transfusions of Extra Blood

One of them was Johannes Draaijer, a 27-year-old racer from the Netherlands who finished 20th in the 1989 Tour de France. In February 1990 he died in his sleep of a heart blockage a few days after completing a race in Italy. A doctor had pronounced him fit to ride in that race, and an autopsy did not specify the cause of death. But in a television interview afterward, his widow said she hoped the death would serve as a warning to other athletes who take the drug.

How do you connect this to blood doping in 1989 in the Tour de France?

 

[patricknd]

Yeah, but we now know the "no blood doping due to extreme heat/climbing" is completely 100% wrong.

Do you have a link when the smart doctors in the 80's realized this? I'm sure you have it down to exact date and time, right? If Concini didn't publish it in a book then our heads go in the sand?

You are using a BS theory proven wrong to say something didn't happen in a certain timeline, but obviously it was found to be wrong at some point. You are asking polish and me to provide proof of something. I am asking you to provide proof exactly when the theory was proven wrong. You've already ruled out anything before Dec 31, 1989, so there must be proof of that somewhere. Please provide links. Thanks.

come on, don't you know that if it was done in the 80's certain riders could be suspect? we can't have that now, can we?

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Some observations from this thread:

First of all - well done on all for keeping to subject and providing interesting questions and theories and those who have provided answers.

Since a certain troll has been finally killed off (for now) it is noteworthy that the questions are a lot more interesting and informative....good work.

T me - this is what a forum is all about - proper questions (on subject matter - not perceived opinion) with either well founded rebuttals or point conceded.

I joined this forum to learn - and your opposing views and interesting arguments have been enlightening - congrats tot all and a sincere thanks.

 

[ChrisE]

come on, don't you know that if it was done in the 80's certain riders could be suspect? we can't have that now, can we?

Hey dude. How's the health? You can only be the Patrick I know.

Don't get overwhelmed with the traffic and conversation here. RH may show up as a mod and throw water on the fire!

FYI, you can actually call dumbasses dumbasses here. I'm waiting for RR to call me that lol.

 

[patricknd]

Hey dude. How's the health? You can only be the Patrick I know.

Don't get overwhelmed with the traffic and conversation here. RH may show up as a mod and throw water on the fire!

FYI, you can actually call dumbasses dumbasses here. I'm waiting for RR to call me that lol.

getting better slowly but surely, radiation burns suck, but they can't kill me.

 

[ChrisE]

Interesting debate, I always wondered why people were so sure that blood doping wasn't really done in GT's in the 80s.

Was there reason at all for people to talk about blood doping for track, but not for GTs? It wasn't legal in one and banned in the other or anything weird like that?

If not, then IMO the fact that blood doping for track has been well documented, but there is no record of it for GT's, gives a pretty good indication that it didn't happen.

RR stated Concini's published reason for only doping Moser was for the hour record on the track. If he tried the record by riding his bike from Paris to Versaille over and over this was ng and Moser would keel over and face plant a street light. Don't know where Moser did the record but hope it was air conditioned or oooppssss.....nothing would've happened lol. Then, this debate would be re-timelined!

His reasons have since been proven wrong, and Moser wouldn't have face planted any street furniture but I am on the edge of my seat for confirmation (in some published document, of course) of when he was wrong. You know his written word is the bible of what hundreds of other docs and riders did until Jan 1, 1990.

I suspect the date of discovery it could be used in gt's was Jan 1, 1990 but I could be wrong. RR is the wikipedia of doping facts in a couple of forums, so I will accept what he provides on this subject.

Is it known doping docs that dictate common knowledge over the course of ten years, or journalists? I think we need to lay off LA until Ferrari publishes a book. Hopefully it won't say LA only doped in Boone, NC in 1998. The forum would have an aneurysm/projectile diarhea combo and have to qualify their opinions so much this place would look like a pretzel on steroids.