Last clean Grand Tour winner?

[Dr. Maserati]

I asked a simple question.....what date exactly did a GT rider start blood doping? Surely that date is known.

You guys are saying Concini's proof was he didn't blood dope Moser. OK, whatever. The guy could be lying, who knows? What about the other riders/years?

You are hanging your hat on that. When is the first proof? Then, we can debate on time previous to that, until New Years Eve 1990 that is.

Two words..... Sandro Donati!

Donati was the whistleblower from inside the Italian scientific system.

Donati exposed the complete system within the Italian Sporting community - from blood doping to the use of EPO by Dr. Conconi and his understudy's, Dr. Ferrari and Dr. Cecchini!!

The only blood doping within Cycling was for Moser's hour record.

My own personal opinion is that blood transfusions were not used throughout the 80's for GT races - blood doping began with the introduction of EPO - and only with the introduction of the EPO test did the riders revert back to blood transfusions.

 

[ChrisE]

getting better slowly but surely, radiation burns suck, but they can't kill me.

Well, I know OAR has asked you out for a beer, and we talk about you (just beastiality things we have heard about you). We think you don't want to lower yourself to us, but I understand. I'm not proud of myself either, and counseling is currently helping me thru this inferiority complex.....OAR is still in denial, and he can't understand why the young girls in the mall don't pay him any attention. He carries around a glamour shot and tells them to not judge him by his real appearance. Just keep him from physical contact with others and he can photoshop something presentable lol.

He and I meet up periodically and strategize forum assaults. I haven't talked to him this week and I am busy until next week. Glad you are doing well but looking forward to meeting you.

FYI I'm going to the Garner area this weekend where the Tour of Tx used to go thru. Steep climbs I used to ride but now will study standing on the side of the road with a budlight and my dlsr, on my way to play golf. LA used to race that race....I will smell the asphalt and make a toast for you and LA!

Sorry to go off topic but Patrick is here!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Wooo-hooo!

Now I've lost my train of thought in this haze....damn you, Patrick.

 

[L29205]

Some observations from this thread:

First of all - well done on all for keeping to subject and providing interesting questions and theories and those who have provided answers.

Since a certain troll has been finally killed off (for now) it is noteworthy that the questions are a lot more interesting and informative....good work.

T me - this is what a forum is all about - proper questions (on subject matter - not perceived opinion) with either well founded rebuttals or point conceded.

I joined this forum to learn - and your opposing views and interesting arguments have been enlightening - congrats tot all and a sincere thanks.

Overall I agree Dr. M.

My only concern is the fact both sides of this debate are asking for the impossible. No one has proof the blood doping happened or that it didn't happen. From a technical standpoint yes it could have happened. Were there concerns about it that may have prevented people from doping? Could be.

I just don't like things when people get so set in an absolute that they can not be open to other ideas.

I personally don't think you can without a doubt say blood doping didn't happen in the GT's in the 80's. Do I think that it is highly unlikely? Yes I do.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

RR stated Concini's published reason for only doping Moser was for the hour record on the track. If he tried the record by riding his bike from Paris to Versaille over and over this was ng and Moser would keel over and face plant a street light. Don't know where Moser did the record but hope it was air conditioned or oooppssss.....nothing would've happened lol. Then, this debate would be re-timelined!

His reasons have since been proven wrong, and Moser wouldn't have face planted any street furniture but I am on the edge of my seat for confirmation (in some published document, of course) of when he was wrong. You know his written word is the bible of what hundreds of other docs and riders did until Jan 1, 1990.

I suspect the date of discovery it could be used in gt's was Jan 1, 1990 but I could be wrong. RR is the wikipedia of doping facts in a couple of forums, so I will accept what he provides on this subject.

Is it known doping docs that dictate common knowledge over the course of ten years, or journalists? I think we need to lay off LA until Ferrari publishes a book. Hopefully it won't say LA only doped in Boone, NC in 1998. The forum would have an aneurysm/projectile diarhea combo and have to qualify their opinions so much this place would look like a pretzel on steroids.

Ammmm.... for what its worth....

We are what, 10 pages in here - with some debating the merits of Lemond....

The name of this thread is "The Last Clean Tour Winner"..... guess which other American winner has not been defended.....

 

[ChrisE]

Two words..... Sandro Donati!

Donati was the whistleblower from inside the Italian scientific system.

Donati exposed the complete system within the Italian Sporting community - from blood doping to the use of EPO by Dr. Conconi and his understudy's, Dr. Ferrari and Dr. Cecchini!!

The only blood doping within Cycling was for Moser's hour record.

My own personal opinion is that blood transfusions were not used throughout the 80's for GT races - blood doping began with the introduction of EPO - and only with the introduction of the EPO test did the riders revert back to blood transfusions.

OK. We now anoint "Sandro Donati" whoever the rats a$$ that is as clarifier of 10 years of doping. WTF is Sandro? Is this something you get in your shorts at the beach and it adds 50 watts to climbing performance?

Is he/she/it (again wtf is Sandro? Sounds like andro so should we beleive this?) can shed some light on the 90's and beyond so we can cut to the chase on the graphs on the other thread and this argument. Links to individual 15 minute fame experts provide large frame time swaths of get-out-of-jail free cards to cyclists with suspect performances.

Andro Sandro Donati is good for Do Not I Andro.

Please get a quote on Andro on WTF happened in 91 and 92 on those crappy graphs that prove my boy LA and Big Mig doped? Sorry to be jumping threads but I'm on a roll.

I've got a buddy named EPO C3PO Sensulin Insulin R2D2 U do EPO Smith. He says there was blood doping in the 80's because he was in the bloods and smoked dope. Prove me wrong. And, he rode his bike to the store to get some chips.

 

[patricknd]

Well, I know OAR has asked you out for a beer, and we talk about you (just beastiality things we have heard about you). We think you don't want to lower yourself to us, but I understand. I'm not proud of myself either, and counseling is currently helping me thru this inferiority complex.....OAR is still in denial, and he can't understand why the young girls in the mall don't pay him any attention. He carries around a glamour shot and tells them to not judge him by his real appearance. Just keep him from physical contact with others and he can photoshop something presentable lol.

He and I meet up periodically and strategize forum assaults. I haven't talked to him this week and I am busy until next week. Glad you are doing well but looking forward to meeting you.

FYI I'm going to the Garner area this weekend where the Tour of Tx used to go thru. Steep climbs I used to ride but now will study standing on the side of the road with a budlight and my dlsr, on my way to play golf. LA used to race that race....I will smell the asphalt and make a toast for you and LA!

Sorry to go off topic but Patrick is here!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Wooo-hooo!

Now I've lost my train of thought in this haze....damn you, Patrick.

the bestiality thing was a misunderstanding, so that's all in the past. i was gonna do texas hell week in fredricksburg this spring but i'm still way to fat from steroids for 500 miles of riding in a week, so i'll probably have to be content with riding on the trainer and in the neighborhood for a while. i had a big setback with radiation side effects, but that seems to finally be ending.
i've had to lay off the beers, but i am hopeful i'll be able to have some soon.

today was my one year diagnosis anniversary and i'm still here, so drink a beer for me. one year ago i was 170 lean mean pounds and now i'm a 204 lb behemoth. how the mighty have fallen.......

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Overall I agree Dr. M.

My only concern is the fact both sides of this debate are asking for the impossible. No one has proof the blood doping happened or that it didn't happen. From a technical standpoint yes it could have happened. Were there concerns about it that may have prevented people from doping? Could be.

I just don't like things when people get so set in an absolute that they can not be open to other ideas.

I personally don't think you can without a doubt say blood doping didn't happen in the GT's in the 80's. Do I think that it is highly unlikely? Yes I do.

Fair point - .
Agree it could have happened - and it did on 'one-off' occasions like Olympics '84 and Moser's hour Record.
But as was pointed out earlier - there is zero evidence that it did.

Just a recap on the GT winners from the 80's:
Zoetemelk, Hinault, Fignon, Lemond, Delgado, Roche, Battaglin, Visentini, Moser, Saronni, Hampsten, Ruperez, Kelly, Herrara, Pino, Lejarreta, Caritoux..

FWIW - I listened to an Irish rider say he drank cow's blood when he raced in the Ras Tailteann in Ireland back in the 50's (If I recall correctly)..... but as much as the the Ras is legendary it is not quite a GT

 

[Hugh Januss]

OK. We now anoint "Sandro Donati" whoever the rats a$$ that is as clarifier of 10 years of doping. WTF is Sandro? Is this something you get in your shorts at the beach and it adds 50 watts to climbing performance?

Is he/she/it (again wtf is Sandro? Sounds like andro so should we beleive this?) can shed some light on the 90's and beyond so we can cut to the chase on the graphs on the other thread and this argument. Links to individual 15 minute fame experts provide large frame time swaths of get-out-of-jail free cards to cyclists with suspect performances.

Andro Sandro Donati is good for Do Not I Andro.

Please get a quote on Andro on WTF happened in 91 and 92 on those crappy graphs that prove my boy LA and Big Mig doped? Sorry to be jumping threads but I'm on a roll.

I've got a buddy named EPO C3PO Sensulin Insulin R2D2 U do EPO Smith. He says there was blood doping in the 80's because he was in the bloods and smoked dope. Prove me wrong. And, he rode his bike to the store to get some chips.

This now concludes the "serious discussion" portion of this thread!

 

[Regis1]

1960 Tour winner Gastone Nencini was caught in his room by Tour doctor Pierre Dumas tranfusing his own blood- lines in both arms. Still won since not illegal at time. (February Procycling p.74 and "Cycling's Golden Age:Heroes of the Postwar Era, 1946-1967" p.125) Is it reasonable to believe that he was the only rider doing this. or that it did not continue on into other eras, including the '80s? Considering what we know, and has been discussed on these forums, regarding certain middle distance runners in the '70s, the '84 USA Cycling team (and from personal interaction with several members of that team can confirm the doping and they noted it was pretty widespread), and what we have seen over the past 30 years can't believe that it ever completely went away.

 

[ChrisE]

Ammmm.... for what its worth....

We are what, 10 pages in here - with some debating the merits of Lemond....

The name of this thread is "The Last Clean Tour Winner"..... guess which other American winner has not been defended.....

It would seem that the personal doping doc of the cyclist would need to publish a book. Good potential for the OP guys....if Ferrari writes LA doped in 2005 then maybe some of then are ok. Ferrari could write he no longer sees benefits of doping after what he did for LA, for a crit after the 05 tour, due to having sex with starlets and the whole latter 2000's would be clear for all the don juan's in the peloton! the 2000's blood doping bad vs starlets is the new 80's blood doping bad vs sun and mountains. Who all nailed Basso's sister, or the Vuelta podium girls? Or, Emma Oreilly? Sasha Grey? Kayden Kross? If somebody nailed Kayden Kross they probably couldn't push over the pedals no matter how much EPO.

This new level of proof has made me come to stand and defend LA. Find a book by Ferrari that specifically states what was done or else you all are spouting BS.

 

[ChrisE]

This now concludes the "serious discussion" portion of this thread!

Hey, I'm putting alot of work in here.

 

[L29205]

Fair point - .
Agree it could have happened - and it did on 'one-off' occasions like Olympics '84 and Moser's hour Record.
But as was pointed out earlier - there is zero evidence that it did.

Just a recap on the GT winners from the 80's:
Zoetemelk, Hinault, Fignon, Lemond, Delgado, Roche, Battaglin, Visentini, Moser, Saronni, Hampsten, Ruperez, Kelly, Herrara, Pino, Lejarreta, Caritoux..

FWIW - I listened to an Irish rider say he drank cow's blood when he raced in the Ras Tailteann in Ireland back in the 50's (If I recall correctly)..... but as much as the the Ras is legendary it is not quite a GT

People do stupid things in an effort to gain an edge. Cow's blood, I can't say I have not drank it but that was a bet not an PED experience.

I don't think any of the main GT contenders would have risked the potential side effects of blood doping at that time. Someone may have blood doped at that time but not part of a program.

So overall I agree with the base message of the thread. The 80's probably was not involved in systematic blood doping but I also agree that it could have happened.

Proof either way will never happen. Both sides need to give that up.

 

[Escarabajo]

Red blood cells can be frozen and stored for ten years. A glycerol solution is used to prevent cell damage.

Without EPO, I cannot see that autologous transfusions of non-frozen blood would be that effective for a GT. Using other people's blood would have been crazy risky in the early 80s. ...

So it is hard to believe that it happened, just like Mr. Maserati said. It was related at first with the EPO usage.

Since when is the practice of freezing the red blood cells has been going on? Do you know or have any links?
Thanks

 

[Ferdinand Artichoke]

is Tamworth 'Grand'?

Me in the B Grade in the Tour Of Tamworth...1999

 

[Escarabajo]

OK. We now anoint "Sandro Donati" whoever the rats a$$ that is as clarifier of 10 years of doping. WTF is Sandro? Is this something you get in your shorts at the beach and it adds 50 watts to climbing performance?

...

Here it is, and he won't help you in increasing your performance:

http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showthread.php?t=5569

 

[ChrisE]

Since when is the practice of freezing the red blood cells has been going on? Do you know or have any links?
Thanks

You've thrown a curve here. You ask for links for proof. Alot of time link sausage will have some residual blood from the base meat. I, for example, freeze alot of deer sausage and other types of sausage and then thaw and eat them. I feel energetic afterwards. Who knows what that means.

I'm not sure freezing blood for doping is required to be done in links. Couldn't it be done in a sandwich baggy?

 

[ChrisE]

Here it is, and he won't help you in increasing your performance:

http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showthread.php?t=5569

Pfffft! That is just internet stuff. Anybody can write stuff there. Where is the real, published hard back stuff you see in waldenbooks?

 

[Escarabajo]

You've thrown a curve here. You ask for links for proof. Alot of time link sausage will have some residual blood from the base meat. I, for example, freeze alot of deer sausage and other types of sausage and then thaw and eat them. I feel energetic afterwards. Who knows what that means.

I'm not sure freezing blood for doping is required to be done in links. Couldn't it be done in a sandwich baggy?

LOL. OK, I take the joke.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

OK. We now anoint "Sandro Donati" whoever the rats a$$ that is as clarifier of 10 years of doping. WTF is Sandro? Is this something you get in your shorts at the beach and it adds 50 watts to climbing performance?

Is he/she/it (again wtf is Sandro? Sounds like andro so should we beleive this?) can shed some light on the 90's and beyond so we can cut to the chase on the graphs on the other thread and this argument. Links to individual 15 minute fame experts provide large frame time swaths of get-out-of-jail free cards to cyclists with suspect performances.

Andro Sandro Donati is good for Do Not I Andro.

Please get a quote on Andro on WTF happened in 91 and 92 on those crappy graphs that prove my boy LA and Big Mig doped? Sorry to be jumping threads but I'm on a roll.

I've got a buddy named EPO C3PO Sensulin Insulin R2D2 U do EPO Smith. He says there was blood doping in the 80's because he was in the bloods and smoked dope. Prove me wrong. And, he rode his bike to the store to get some chips.

Ok - my apologies if an Italian name offends you......

The Donati Report exposed the widespread abuse of PED's in Italian sports throughout the 80's.

Here are some links to who Sandro Donati is,
what he has to say.... and more importantly why his information is significant.

When you sober up you can provide the links for your "buddy' EPO C3PO.

 

[ChrisE]

Ok - my apologies if an Italian name offends you......

The Donati Report exposed the widespread abuse of PED's in Italian sports throughout the 80's.

Here are some links to who Sandro Donati is,
what he has to say.... and more importantly why his information is significant.

When you sober up you can provide the links for your "buddy' EPO C3PO.

OK doc, I'm game to absorb all this new confusing information provided by Sandro. I still think that would be a great name for a product we all encounter, with now new benefits. I usually wash that out in the yard with the hose; now I would be rubbing my a$$ on the ground like my dog and then climbing the motirolo. Anyway....

EPO C3PO Sensulin Insulin R2D2 U do EPO Smith is not into reading these links you provide. He's out packn and doing a gin and juice run. Word.

I promise to read them and download the condensed version. I am sober:it offends me that you think otherwise. Take care.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

OK doc, I'm game to absorb all this new confusing information provided by Sandro. I still think that would be a great name for a product we all encounter, with now new benefits. I usually wash that out in the yard with the hose; now I would be rubbing my a$$ on the ground like my dog and then climbing the motirolo. Anyway....

EPO C3PO Sensulin Insulin R2D2 U do EPO Smith is not into reading these links you provide. He's out packn and doing a gin and juice run. Word.

I promise to read them and download the condensed version. I am sober:it offends me that you think otherwise. Take care.

Actually CE - I really am shocked you don't know who Donati is! He blew apart the Italian athletic performances - with none other then Dr. Conconi at the helm.
There is simply too much information from Donati to provide links too.
His information is insightful and often shocking - but of course as with all information it is subject to the readers interpretation - as you say -YMMV...

Apologies if my "sober" remark offended.... (Glad one of us is ) ...

 

[ChrisE]

Actually CE - I really am shocked you don't know who Donati is! He blew apart the Italian athletic performances - with none other then Dr. Conconi at the helm.
There is simply too much information from Donati to provide links too.
His information is insightful and often shocking - but of course as with all information it is subject to the readers interpretation - as you say -YMMV...

Apologies if my "sober" remark offended.... (Glad one of us is ) ...

Actually, I don't dig as deep into the data and background as most of you do. If this Andro guy puts forth too many things to link to I call BS. We all have high speed internet here, and if he wants to spout off with alot of data get a bigger server. Sheesh!

Your remark offended me, but I am calloused per previous assaults by CN forem members I respect. I have presented myself as an open plate to sponge in the knowledge of the smart guys. The smart guys have called me assclown earlier. That is uncalled for and I am thinking about boycoting the forum for a new hours. The boycotting of a few key members should pull some strings.

I have abandoned meeting aggression wth aggression. That has results in 2 recent bans in forums where the avg IQ is somewhere in the mid 60's, ie target rich environment. I am sensitive to this now, and even the stupid posters get a pass. What you accused me was is stupid, but I understand the hand you were dealt. Take care, my friend. A brain is a terrible thing to waste.

 

[I Watch Cycling In July]

RR stated Concini's published reason for only doping Moser was for the hour record on the track. If he tried the record by riding his bike from Paris to Versaille over and over this was ng and Moser would keel over and face plant a street light. Don't know where Moser did the record but hope it was air conditioned or oooppssss.....nothing would've happened lol. Then, this debate would be re-timelined!

His reasons have since been proven wrong, and Moser wouldn't have face planted any street furniture but I am on the edge of my seat for confirmation (in some published document, of course) of when he was wrong. You know his written word is the bible of what hundreds of other docs and riders did until Jan 1, 1990.

I suspect the date of discovery it could be used in gt's was Jan 1, 1990 but I could be wrong. RR is the wikipedia of doping facts in a couple of forums, so I will accept what he provides on this subject.

Is it known doping docs that dictate common knowledge over the course of ten years, or journalists? I think we need to lay off LA until Ferrari publishes a book. Hopefully it won't say LA only doped in Boone, NC in 1998. The forum would have an aneurysm/projectile diarhea combo and have to qualify their opinions so much this place would look like a pretzel on steroids.

Your specious argument was only funny the first time. The precise moment that an individual doctor decided that blood doping in GTs was an acceptable risk is complete minutiae. As such it is pretty ridiculous to expect it to be documented.

The relevant point is that blood doping for track has been documented but there is no similar record for GTs. Why the difference?

 

[42x16ss]

The relevant point is that blood doping for track has been documented but there is no similar record for GTs. Why the difference?

My theory is logistics. In the 80's it was probably very difficult to get the blood from wherever it was stored to the riders without complications such as the blood thawing or getting too warm.

If the online chat between JV and Frankie Andreu is true then it took something like the refrigerated panniers used by US Postal to make it safe. EPO would have been preferred in the 90's for this reason.

 

[Oldman]

My theory is logistics. In the 80's it was probably very difficult to get the blood from wherever it was stored to the riders without complications such as the blood thawing or getting too warm.
If the online chat between JV and Frankie Andreu is true then it took something like the refrigerated panniers used by US Postal to make it safe. EPO would have been preferred in the 90's for this reason.

Like I said a few hours ago; before the tit for tat had to play out...

Oldman
Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Great Pacific NW
Posts: 456



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Race Radio
There is zero evidence of a Grand Tour rider using Blood doping in the 80's.

Moser used it for his hour record but Conconi thought it was too dangerous to use outside a controlled environment. It was only the track riders that used it in 1984. Greg moved to Europe at 19 and had little contact with Eddie B after this. He was coached by Paul Kochli and later Adrie Van Diemen (Current coach of David Miller and VDV)

I would agree on Lemond with respect to Eddie B. I'm talking about the 7-11, Motorola offshoots. While again, IMO they wouldn't try blood doping in a GT from a logistical standpoint; this was about the last clean gt performance. I'm still staying with Mottet and Hampsten, who did not win. All others that were performing well in '83 on...may not have been onto EPO or blood doping. They were likely on the juice de jour. Conconi and his track experiment/rats are another thing as most folks have pointed out.