Logisitcs

[Anonymous]

But I don't care about my grammer. My spelling and grammer has been crap for years - don't give a toss. I just find it funny that you get bogged down on that and think its really clever.

I don't think I've ever seen you make an argument about anything. You just troll most of the time. It's not fair on the people who like to read and take part in the threads. Stop being so selfish.

See, that is why I love you. Just great trollkraft there, magnificent really!

"give a toss" yea, gotta throw in the British slang to knock people off the scent.

 

[Anonymous]

Anyway its getting late/early here. Just try to clean up your act before I come back again. This attitude problem has gone on long enough - nobody is impressed.

I'll be here waiting for you dear. Keep up the good work!

 

[Anonymous]

I don't want to see you using that other account again either.

But feel free to use yours.

 

[Race Radio]

No they will try to keep it as quiet as possible. This was touched on early on in the thread. That's why the hotel rooms and the motorbike guys become more important, and thus making it an even more incredible and risky operation. It's difficult to believe most teams would bother with it.

This has been answered over and over.

After Festina teams had a ton of scrutiny. The law was against them. It did not stop teams from having organized doping programs. We know about Telekom, Kelme, Fasso Bortolo, Once/Liberty. Do you really think they were the only ones?

We know that both JV and Fuentes said there were motos. We also know the teams stay in crappy hotels without security and the chaos of the Tour offers a great cover.

The question has been answered again and again and again. You seem to be the only person choosing not to read it......that is because you are a troll and your goal is to derail threads, not add anything to them.

 

[Anonymous]

But I don't care about my grammer. My spelling and grammer has been crap for years - don't give a toss. I just find it funny that you get bogged down on that and think its really clever.

I don't think I've ever seen you make an argument about anything. You just troll most of the time. It's not fair on the people who like to read and take part in the threads. Stop being so selfish.

Anyway its getting late/early here. Just try to clean up your act before I come back again. This attitude problem has gone on long enough - nobody is impressed.

Lance,

I'm impressed that you can be at dinner with Max and Anna while battling with TFF (food for thought...WTF??!!) while tweeting away:

"Great dinner at the house tonight w/ @annahansen and others. @maxarmstrong1 didn't bother to wake up and come down. Jeez.."

Dude, that is walking AND chewing gum at the same time. For the record, I disagree with those who think you are ***. You are just distracted.

 

[HelmutRoole]

Nobody has denied that blood doping has gone on...

But you use to back in the House days. Fact is, the reason you changed your handle is because, after OP, you looked like a fool. The evidence was overwhelming that doping was rife in the pro pelOton (you should really know how to spell that word by now) and that everyone was involved including your fave, Lance Armstrong.

Dude, seriously, you're obsessed with this topic. It's nearly 10 p.m. Pacific time. You started this thread around 10 a.m. Now, even when I was at my height over at cyclingforums.com where I posted more than 1,000 times, I always clocked out of my meaningless job -- and thus logged off the forum -- at 5 p.m.

House, is this all you got? Do you have no family to go home to? No friends to share a beer with? Didn't you use to coach soccer or something? Did they finally fire you after realizing you were insane?

 

[HelmutRoole]

So I'm afraid these issues have not been answered.

What hasn't been answered is, why would riders take blood out if they weren't later going to put it back? It is a fact that they take blood out as OP demonstrated. We know it comes out. We know it goes back in.

Discussing how it's delivered is speculation. Asinine. A smoke screen. As if, if we can't understand the delivery system, it is therefore not being delivered.

It's being delivered. They wouldn't take it out if they weren't planning on putting it back. Just because we don't know the exact methodology (and I do mean methodology, as in the study of how to smuggle stuff in and out of hotels without detection)... since we don't know the methodology doesn't mean it's not happening.

 

[blackcat]

we do know a little about the mechanism.

Fuentes used the ex-French pro, and his apartment in the Tour. He used someone else, an Italian mtb'er for the Giro, but delivered somewhere. T-Mobile went back to Freiburg. USPS used a courier of Bruyneel's choice.

If you want to know, or you want to put your head in the sand, the information is out there.

Anyone can offer a talking point, that "extraordinary allegations require extraordinary evidence". But that denies the sociological context, the omerta, and the vested interests, the UCI's whitewashing of the 99 epo positives. One should challenge the twitter soundbite nature of truth.

 

[PACONi]

Why do you people bother with BPC?
Nothing you say and no amount of evidence will ever change his mind.
Just ignore him and save yourselves the hassle.

 

[auscyclefan94]

Let me start by saying that I'm as cynical as the next person and have no trouble believing that there is a lot of doping going on in pro cycling and there probably has been as long as I've been following it (since '85, but I really would like to believe that Andy H. and Greg were clean but wouldn't be shocked to find out otherwise). It would seem humanly impossible to beat (again and again) riders who have now admitted to heavy duty doping without doing it yourself.

All of that being said, there are a couple of things that have been nagging at me:

-How is it possible to blood dope with transfusions, etc. during an event with as much scrutiny as a grand tour? I've heard about the motorcycles with refrigerated panniers and all that, but a photo of one of those pulling up to the Astana team bus has got to be worth a fortune to a photographer / journalist! How would they slip in and out undetected (or conversely, how would the riders slip out to some place they could do a transfusion)? Wouldn't your arms be a mess of needle marks from all of the IV hookups? I know when I get drawn for a test I bruise for several days! Would it solve the problem to have a private detective trail the top 5 GC contenders?

-Some have theorized that Hamilton and Vino were caught because they messed up and used someone else's blood bag. This if obviously possible, but wouldn't the odds be that the blood types wouldn't match? If that happened you would be in serious trouble, and a positive test would be the least of your troubles!

Again, no need to convince me that doping is rampant, just trying to get my head around how it would all work day to day during a major event.

Why do you follow cycling then? your just living a lie watching these athletes win and then condemming them for doping. I don't believe that all these riders are dopers. If all these guys are doping then why hasn't the authorities noticed anything going on? Imagine if all 21 teams at the tour were doping, wouldn't their be more evidence of people going in and out of tour villages or when they do hotel/bus raids,tthere would be evidence of doping equipment etc. Your arms would be messed up with needles but tatoos and make up have been used to cover it up. I do understand that doping is evident in cycling and some riders i like/follow very well may be dopers but i couldn't follow a complete lie if cycling was based on doping.

 

[Von Mises]

The reason why I said that is because you are always picking which topic and who you answer to. That is because when somebody throws a good fact at you don't reply to that person. There has been in the past some solid evidence of blood doping logistics:

1- Kohl’s confession
2- Patrick Sinkewitz confession.

But the issue of this topic is what is the scale of doping during grand tours, how easy or complicated logistics are? And Kohl´s and Sinkewitz´s confessions give an impression that it is indeed complicated, sometimes costly and risky.


Kohl said that he was blood doped three times during Tour. Every time his manager brought the blood with plane (from Austria?). No other drugs during Tour and no drug transportation with team vechicles because of risk.

Sinkewitz told that his intial plan was to dope twice during 2006 Tour. He travelled to Freiburg on the evening of the first stage for transfusion. But it failed. There was some problem with blood bags. Second tranfusion was planned to take place 10 days later, but he canceled it because of risks and because he was not able find good ways to transport the blood. Intrestingly if true, it means that Sinkewitz was clean during 2006 and was able to achieve 23rd place.


Sinkewitz confession give and impression that doping became over time more risky, getting doped more complicated and more rare. From one side his confession tells that doping was around, but also not too sophisticated and sometimes quite random and over years becoming more and more risky.

 

[blackcat]

Sinkewitz was not completely honest, he rode the first timetrial in about 7th place, from a rider who previously has never been able to timetrial. He was surely riding on an increased o2 delivery capacity. How and how much is another matter.

But Landis just dropped him off his wheel in his herculean stage.

 

[blackcat]

Why do you follow cycling then? your just living a lie watching these athletes win and then condemming them for doping. I don't believe that all these riders are dopers. If all these guys are doping then why hasn't the authorities noticed anything going on? Imagine if all 21 teams at the tour were doping, wouldn't their be more evidence of people going in and out of tour villages or when they do hotel/bus raids,tthere would be evidence of doping equipment etc. Your arms would be messed up with needles but tatoos and make up have been used to cover it up. I do understand that doping is evident in cycling and some riders i like/follow very well may be dopers but i couldn't follow a complete lie if cycling was based on doping.

if you were following cycling closely enough, you would have the answers to all those questions. 98 changed the model for doping. Less flasks that were rattling with ice cubes.

More wives and girlfriends.

Ofcourse, if you had been following cycling closely you would know this.

 

[Von Mises]

Sinkewitz was not completely honest, he rode the first timetrial in about 7th place, from a rider who previously has never been able to timetrial. He was surely riding on an increased o2 delivery capacity. How and how much is another matter.

But Landis just dropped him off his wheel in his herculean stage.

But you can interpret these results also from another direction. It was the year of Operación Puerto, many favourites were away, risks were high, attention was mounting. So, maybe Sinkewitz did not ride on an increased o2 delivery capacity, but many riders around him were riding on lower o2 delivery capacity than previously. Maybe peloton was cleaner during 2006 Tour beacuse of Puerto scandal.

 

[blackcat]

But you can interpret these results also from another direction. It was the year of Operación Puerto, many favourites were away, risks were high, attention was mounting. So, maybe Sinkewitz did not ride on an increased o2 delivery capacity, but many riders around him were riding on lower o2 delivery capacity than previously. Maybe peloton was cleaner during 2006 Tour beacuse of Puerto scandal.

if you have a look at the T-Mobile riders in the first chrono, it is clean, that something was up. And Sink had never been a chrono rider, so your thesis is not correct.

Hypothetically, I do not think it is flawed. But his result is too high, ceteris paribus.

 

[blackcat]

if you have a look at the T-Mobile riders in the first chrono, it is clean, that something was up. And Sink had never been a chrono rider, so your thesis is not correct.

Hypothetically, I do not think it is flawed. But his result is too high, ceteris paribus.

1 Serguei Gonchar (Ukr) T-Mobile 1.01.43.60 (50.54 km/h)
2 Floyd Landis (USA) Phonak 1.00.62
3 Sebastian Lang (Ger) Gerolsteiner 1.04.27
4 Michael Rogers (Aus) T-Mobile 1.23.87
5 Gustav Larsson (Swe) Francaise Des Jeux 1.33.48
6 Patrik Sinkewitz (Ger) T-Mobile 1.38.65
7 Marcus Fothen (Ger) Gerolsteiner 1.41.77
8 Andreas Klöden (Ger) T-Mobile 1.43.26
9 Denis Menchov (Rus) Rabobank 1.43.90
10 Joost Posthuma (Ned) Rabobank 1.44.41
11 Cadel Evans (Aus) Davitamon-Lotto 1.49.39
12 Vladimir Karpets (Rus) Caisse d'Epargne-Illes Balears 1.51.68
13 David Zabriskie (USA) Team CSC 1.56.59
14 Matthias Kessler (Ger) T-Mobile 2.02.77
15 Christophe Moreau (Fra) AG2R-Prevoyance 2.03.46
16 Eddy Mazzoleni (Ita) T-Mobile 2.04.61
17 Victor Hugo Pena (Col) Phonak 2.08.98
18 Carlos Sastre (Spa) Team CSC 2.10.59
19 Paolo Savoldelli (Ita) Discovery Channel 2.12.20
20 Thomas Lövkvist (Swe) Francaise Des Jeux 2.35.79
21 Bert Grabsch (Ger) Phonak 2.38.16
22 Viatscheslav Ekimov (Rus) Discovery Channel 2.40.23
23 Oscar Pereiro (Spa) Caisse d'Epargne-Illes Balears 2.40.92
24 George Hincapie (USA) Discovery Channel 2.42.07
25 Didier Rous (Fra) Bouygues Telecom 2.50.59
26 José Luis Rubiera (Spa) Discovery Channel 3.05.60
27 Sylvain Chavanel (Fra) Cofidis 3.05.95
28 Bradley Wiggins (GBr) Cofidis 3.09.77
29 Egoi Martinez (Spa) Discovery Channel 3.13.07
30 Christian Vandevelde (USA) Team CSC 3.13.87
31 Andriy Grivko (Ukr) Milram 3.15.24
32 Yaroslav Popovyvch (Ukr) Discovery Channel 3.16.81
33 Mikel Astarloza (Spa) AG2R-Prevoyance 3.18.15
34 Giuseppe Guerini (Ita) T-Mobile 3.19.90
35 Sandy Casar (Fra) Francaise Des Jeux 3.28.00
36 Haimar Zubeldia (Spa) Euskaltel-Euskadi 3.31.84
37 David Millar (GBr) Saunier Duval 3.34.29
38 Cyril Dessel (Fra) AG2R-Prevoyance 3.42.11
39 Marzio Bruseghin (Ita) Lampre-Fondital 3.42.41

 

[workingclasshero]

I hope you really get banned. I am getting tired of you derailing every Thread in this Forum. Why don't you go to the other side of the Forum please. I usually enjoy reading the Clinic every week and learn a lot of stuff, but you are disrupting the flow of the discussion. Please stay out of this Forum.
Thanks.

i agree with this one now.

i usually find that having people ask questions and/or say stupid stuff actually brings out good arguments from people in the know. And BPC has been used in the same way

it has been a laugh BUT now every thread is ruined by his inane ramblings. it no longer even bears any kind of attempt at making people believe he believes himself. Problem is it is now an absolute mess trying to read a thread. Takes so much longer than it would normally have to. Having him on ignore does not help, coz other people respond and take up space. And i don't want to ignore blackcat, race radio etc.

what i'm trying to say is please get him the fúck off here. I don't care what he says, problem is with him taking up all of the forum and ruining any attempt at a discussion.

Why do you people bother with BPC?
Nothing you say and no amount of evidence will ever change his mind.
Just ignore him and save yourselves the hassle.

if everyone could do this, problem would stop

 

[El Imbatido]

Holy crap on a crap stick 6 T-mobile riders in the top 16 and 7 in the top 35. That my friends is a bit sus

 

[blackcat]

Holy crap on a crap stick 6 T-mobile riders in the top 16 and 7 in the top 35. That my friends is a bit sus

Millar, Vande Velde, Wiggins, Pate, Zabriskie

If you look at the best squads, they usually have the most talented chrono riders. So it will always be skewed.

But when you see Matti Kessler and Pat Sinkewitz, in the top echelon, you should be sceptical.

 

[elapid]

Maybe peloton was cleaner during 2006 Tour beacuse of Puerto scandal.

While not commenting on logistics, the 2006 TdF was probably only cleaner because of the omission of the likes of Ullrich and Basso. Operacion Puerto would not have cleaned up the riders that were able to ride the TdF because it more-or-less was exposed on the eve of the TdF. However, during the race, doping practices may have been forced to change or, as you say, stopped all together.

 

[Von Mises]

if you have a look at the T-Mobile riders in the first chrono, it is clean, that something was up. And Sink had never been a chrono rider, so your thesis is not correct.

Hypothetically, I do not think it is flawed. But his result is too high, ceteris paribus.

To say that my thesis is not correct, is bit harsh. We dont know is it correct or not. It is just one possible interpretation.

I dont know how sicenere Kohl, Sinkewitz and others have been during their confessions, but their claims have often used as evidence to show how massive doping are, so I would say that their claims also okey to prove some other points.

While not commenting on logistics, the 2006 TdF was probably only cleaner because of the omission of the likes of Ullrich and Basso. Operacion Puerto would not have cleaned up the riders that were able to ride the TdF because it more-or-less was exposed on the eve of the TdF. However, during the race, doping practices may have been forced to change or, as you say, stopped all together.

I meant cleaner during the race, not stopped all together, but because of OP more riders were alert and afraid. Of course thats just one possibility...

 

[blackcat]

To say that my thesis is not correct, is bit harsh. We dont know is it correct or not. It is just one possible interpretation.

I dont know how sicenere Kohl, Sinkewitz and others have been during their confessions, but their claims have often used as evidence to show how massive doping are, so I would say that their claims also okey to prove some other points.



I meant cleaner during the race, not stopped all together, but because of OP more riders were alert and afraid. Of course thats just one possibility...

It was wrong, but not inherently flawed.

Look at his result, Sink is not gonna ride into the top 10 on a chrono, if everyone is clean. He just had a very good enhancement medical program. His blood may well have been bad, but he came in with a greater o2 capacity. Otherwise he does not ride like that. Quite simple.

 

[bianchigirl]

On the question of hotels:

It's the 1998 TdF and the Festina team are about to get thrown off the race. But just for now, before Bruno Roussel is arrested, they are the number 1 team in the world with one of the biggest budgets. They're sharing a hotel in Cholet with the Saeco team, the grounds are awash with fans, mechanics, TV crews. People wander in and out, the hotel staff smile clearly thrilled to have some of the biggest names in the sport staying at their hotel. There's a knot of people round Brochard's bike - he's the current World Champion.

And where is this all taking place? Where are two of the biggest teams in the sport staying? At the Campanile, one of a chain of budget hotels found across France.

One of the French cycling mags actually publishes the list of where all the teams are staying and you're having a laugh BPC if you think times have changed significantly from the race taking over every hotel in the vicinity of the finish line, including each and every budget hotel. What you have to bear in mind is that there are only a finite number of flash hotels in smaller French towns - Cholet, for example, a ville d'etape that year is hardly huge, the Tour takes over everything and it takes what it can get. But if you think every French town has a Holiday Inn/Hyatt/Hilton then you are woefully mistaken, as ever.

 

[Mongol_Waaijer]

in the late 90's it was widely reported that there was a mad scramble for ice and fridgespace whenever teams would check in at their hotels.

this was needed to keep the thermos flasks of epo cool.

Also countless anecdotes of witnesses seeing riders up and about in the middle of the night, stretching or riding on the rollers to get the heart pumping that epo sludge around again so they don't die.

Of course there is always an excuse for this (it's hot we want cold drinks / insomnia etc), which is usually believed (despite not really believed) by the UCI and believed (entirely and naively) by people like BPC

 

[Von Mises]

It was wrong, but not inherently flawed.

Look at his result, Sink is not gonna ride into the top 10 on a chrono, if everyone is clean. He just had a very good enhancement medical program. His blood may well have been bad, but he came in with a greater o2 capacity. Otherwise he does not ride like that. Quite simple.

blackcat, but dont you see that if you are right, then it gives another option to argue that during Tour 2006 peloton was cleaner.

If 2005 doped Sink was able to achieve midpack results in TT-s and 2006 doped Sink (lets assume he lied that he was cleaner during 2006) was able to achieve TOP 10 result, then I can conclude that lot of his competitors were cleaner during 2006, otherwise he´d not be able to achieve TOP 10, doped or not doped.