• We're giving away a Cyclingnews water bottle! Find out more here!

Mathieu Van der Poel

Page 2 - Get up to date with the latest news, scores & standings from the Cycling News Community.
Mar 6, 2011
1,414
0
0
Re:

Dekker_Tifosi said:
Go watch some history, like I said in the post above. Wellens, Nys, etc etc etc all did the same in some seasons. They regularly won with more than 1 minute advantage
I'm only a casual fan of Cyclocross but I echo this. It seems more common than not to have someone dominating. MVDP isn't alone in that regard.

That's not to say he isn't doping , but I don't think we can ignore the fact he is an incredible talent. I fully expect him to be a contender in the Northern Classics in a couple of years. Not sure about this year but wouldn't be shocked
 
If you're combination of slightly superior power and superior technical skills you can make a big difference in something like CX/XO. Even on the road one can make 30+ sec gap just by being better downhill. MVP is easily in top2 regarding power but also there seems to be a pretty solid gap between him and others (WvA is imho significantly worse) regarding technical skills.
 
Re:

Dekker_Tifosi said:
Go watch some history, like I said in the post above. Wellens, Nys, etc etc etc all did the same in some seasons. They regularly won with more than 1 minute advantage
I have watched some history. I have mentioned this in at least one previous post.
 
It is ... incredible. But then you look at someone like Mikaela Shiffrin who has won 12 of last 13 WC slalom races, so it's not outside of the realm for someone to dominate in their specialty. In fact MS and MVDP are very similar -- same age, same potential versatility, dominating since they burst onto the scene. She's won downhills and GS's, which is about the same as a CX star winning a one-day classics race.

I find CX really exciting to watch on television, actually, when the camera setup is right and the course isn't totally manufactured.
 
Aug 2, 2012
4,219
1
0
.........who's gonna trust history? i'm thinking of a certain era when italians suddenly were winning WC CX

.....recently MVDP clocked up wins 100/101 ............still i don't think i saw anyjting nuclear

.....every week i look forward to seeing MVDP getting beat.............................

right now womens racing is so much better again...................loads of new talent coming through challenging
the old guard

how come this is not happening in mens events ....it's as though some 'status quo' is being protected?
 
Re:

ebandit said:
.........who's gonna trust history? i'm thinking of a certain era when italians suddenly were winning WC CX

.....recently MVDP clocked up wins 100/101 ............still i don't think i saw anyjting nuclear

.....every week i look forward to seeing MVDP getting beat.............................

right now womens racing is so much better again...................loads of new talent coming through challenging
the old guard

how come this is not happening in mens events ....it's as though some 'status quo' is being protected?
Women's racing is so much more interesting to watch! Purely from the POV of building the sport, appears to be going in the right direction, whereas men's less so. You want more competition, and you also want more talent getting to the top level. The problem of comparing current cx to cx from many years ago is, you want to see progression from one person dominating. Yes, there are prodigies that dominate in all sports. But there's dominance (winning lots) and then there's dominance (winning all the time, usually from the first minute onwards of an hour race!). Let's see - Sagan is a big winner, but he does not win everything and he does not win by ridiculous margins. In 2017 Schurter won all the WC races and the World Champs, but did not win everything by massive margins (and was not winning every weekend).

None of this means vdP is doping, we've already established reasons for that. However, it sure as hell gets more suspicious each week that he dusts people and sets up a minute lead 20 minutes into the race.
 
I am in no way, shape or form saying that testing clean means you're clean -- but winning 100 races means he's been tested 100 times, likely at least once a week. plus OOC, given that he often races Sat/Sun.

The odds of slipping up if you're on a program, and tested that frequently are pretty high. Look how many people get dinged just for being unavailable or missing a test message. So while normally I'd dismiss pishposh like "world's most tested athlete" in MVDP's case it might actually show that he's clean. Or that he's extremely meticulous or on some kind of undetectable regime, too.

I dunno, I could be totally wrong, but being a program and winning everything in sight -- as in every race you enter, once or twice a week -- is walking a bit of a tightrope.
 
Re:

Bolder said:
I am in no way, shape or form saying that testing clean means you're clean -- but winning 100 races means he's been tested 100 times, likely at least once a week. plus OOC, given that he often races Sat/Sun.

The odds of slipping up if you're on a program, and tested that frequently are pretty high. Look how many people get dinged just for being unavailable or missing a test message. So while normally I'd dismiss pishposh like "world's most tested athlete" in MVDP's case it might actually show that he's clean. Or that he's extremely meticulous or on some kind of undetectable regime, too.

I dunno, I could be totally wrong, but being a program and winning everything in sight -- as in every race you enter, once or twice a week -- is walking a bit of a tightrope.
I am gonna go with undetectable program. Like you said, we have heard the multiple testing excuse a thousand times. That's the reason many riders who have been indicted used to claim they were clean as a whistle. Remember Lance (qm).
 
Oct 5, 2012
3
0
0
Re: Re:

I am gonna go with undetectable program. Like you said, we have heard the multiple testing excuse a thousand times. That's the reason many riders who have been indicted used to claim they were clean as a whistle. Remember Lance (qm).[/quote]

So you admit to knowing very little about the sport, overlook his pedigree and early personal training and honing
of his skills at an early age by his Father, a former world champion, and prefer to believe in
an "undectecable program"?

He did not dominate Elite category in 14/15 when he started, he was on par with the others and you can
see from the races his steady improvement.

Do you suspect every winner is on an "undetectable program"?
 
Re: Re:

muddyarse said:
I am gonna go with undetectable program. Like you said, we have heard the multiple testing excuse a thousand times. That's the reason many riders who have been indicted used to claim they were clean as a whistle. Remember Lance (qm).
So you admit to knowing very little about the sport, overlook his pedigree and early personal training and honing
of his skills at an early age by his Father, a former world champion, and prefer to believe in
an "undectecable program"?

He did not dominate Elite category in 14/15 when he started, he was on par with the others and you can
see from the races his steady improvement.

Do you suspect every winner is on an "undetectable program"?[/quote]


I have given the guy his props. He clearly is an exceptional athlete.

I dont know if the guy is doped, nor did I know for sure Lance was on the gear. That said, given the history of the sport, I had a pretty good idea Lance was doped to the gills well before the news was made public.

Part of learning is throwing out questions to people more knowlegable than me. And what better forumn to ask questions than this (qm)
 
One case that was dismissed was that of Meeusen, Sweeck & Van Avermaet suspected of taking injections of Vaminolact. They were linked to Dr. Chris Mertens who was investigated in Belgium for allegedly providing ozone therapy to top athletes
There are a number of ways by which riders can get performance benefits without detection. All they need is a good doctor. Only when the doctor gets caught thru some investigation does it all come out.
 
Good lord.
Did anyone see what happened today (qm)
Not only did MVDP win by a mile, he toyed with the best cyclo-cross riders in the world for half of the race before reeling them in one by one. The guy was playing rope-a-dope! Imagine by how far he would have won by if he went full gas from the get go.

He woyuld have had a chance to take a shower, do interviews and have a coffee before the next best cyclo-cross rider in the world crossed the line.
This guy reminds me of Genvieve Jeanson, who back in the early aughts was absolutely dominant in womens cycling. She literally would win pro races solo by more than 20 minutes.

Unbelievable.
 
Re:

kingjr said:
How do you know he was playing rope-a-dope
An exaggeration for effect. Who knows--maybe the guy fell asleep until lap 4 (another exaggeration for effect).
Point being is even the commentator was suggesting he had quote heavy legs after going to warmer climes to train for the WC. He was suggesting the guys legs were drained after disappearing for a while. Before MVDP woke up, he was pretty much ready to say he was going to lose. I really like the way the commentator calls a cyclo-cross race, but that is neither here nor there. That said, the suggestion seemed peculiar. Unless your trainers, coaches etc have no idea what they are doing, someone isnt going to return from a self-imposed training camp just to get dropped like a rock one week before the WC.
 
the delgados said:
Good lord.
Did anyone see what happened today (qm)
Not only did MVDP win by a mile, he toyed with the best cyclo-cross riders in the world for half of the race before reeling them in one by one. The guy was playing rope-a-dope! Imagine by how far he would have won by if he went full gas from the get go.

He woyuld have had a chance to take a shower, do interviews and have a coffee before the next best cyclo-cross rider in the world crossed the line.
This guy reminds me of Genvieve Jeanson, who back in the early aughts was absolutely dominant in womens cycling. She literally would win pro races solo by more than 20 minutes.

Unbelievable.
I love it

You defend the Dawg to the hilt, yet you straight away smash MVDP saying he's smashed of his t!ts in a discipoline you openly admit to not having interest / clue about.

Do you have any idea of what the race was at the weekend? have you raced on the road let alone other disciplines like XCO, CX etc? Have you seen when MVDP has gained a gap and then that gap has held due to the less effect of no drag effect like on road?

You're happy that the Dawg flies off on 12+% climbs like there's nobody with him, yet MVDP put's in an effort, gets the gap and keep's it and he's automatically connected t 15 blood bags and and taking more gear than Walter White can throw at him.

WVA has had a poor season by his standards due to probably the mental stress he went under at the beginning of the season. Last year he also lost a team mate and friend, got married etc, this surly takes a toll on him. MVDP is an immense cyclist, technically he is class. Have you watched him race MTB XCO?

What's next? You starting a Schurter thread eh? :rolleyes:
 
You, sir, have me mistaken for someone else.
I do not recall ever supporting or defending the quote Dawg.
I readily admitted to being a complete novice, but a lot of people on both threads have shared information.
That, combined with the fact I have watched pretty much every race this year puts me on a steep learning curve.
I mean, we are not talking rocket science here. It is a pretty simple sport in which to learn the ins and outs.
And yes, I raced cat 2 on the road, but that was a lifetime ago. I even participated in a cyclo-cross race. But I was on a mountain bike and was shelled out the back almost immediately.
Now that we have my resume out of the way, lets just watch the marvel and enjoy the spectacle.
Of course I do not know if the guy is on the gear. But it sure as hell looks like it.
 
Re:

the delgados said:
You, sir, have me mistaken for someone else.
I do not recall ever supporting or defending the quote Dawg.
I readily admitted to being a complete novice, but a lot of people on both threads have shared information.
That, combined with the fact I have watched pretty much every race this year puts me on a steep learning curve.
I mean, we are not talking rocket science here. It is a pretty simple sport in which to learn the ins and outs.
And yes, I raced cat 2 on the road, but that was a lifetime ago. I even participated in a cyclo-cross race. But I was on a mountain bike and was shelled out the back almost immediately.
Now that we have my resume out of the way, lets just watch the marvel and enjoy the spectacle.
Of course I do not know if the guy is on the gear. But it sure as hell looks like it.
He may have you mistaken for someone else, but perhaps the issue here is your degree of certainty that what you see is an indication of doping. This is a hard discipline, as you acknowledge, and a gain of ten or fifteen seconds on the terrrain these riders have to compete on is nothing. Passing people in a race means nothing other than that the rider with the form and the skill demonstrates his bike handling, fitness, experience and racing ability. I suspect it shows off the stronger and more competent riders even more than road cycling does. I actually don't think it right to accuse people of doping from the standpoint of a passing acquaintance with the sport and a recent interest in watching it on video, but that is perhaps the difference between us. Come up with something more solid and more people could be interested in the opinion you express. "But it sure as hell looks like it" does not cut the mustard.
 
Re: Re:

wrinklyvet said:
the delgados said:
You, sir, have me mistaken for someone else.
I do not recall ever supporting or defending the quote Dawg.
I readily admitted to being a complete novice, but a lot of people on both threads have shared information.
That, combined with the fact I have watched pretty much every race this year puts me on a steep learning curve.
I mean, we are not talking rocket science here. It is a pretty simple sport in which to learn the ins and outs.
And yes, I raced cat 2 on the road, but that was a lifetime ago. I even participated in a cyclo-cross race. But I was on a mountain bike and was shelled out the back almost immediately.
Now that we have my resume out of the way, lets just watch the marvel and enjoy the spectacle.
Of course I do not know if the guy is on the gear. But it sure as hell looks like it.
He may have you mistaken for someone else, but perhaps the issue here is your degree of certainty that what you see is an indication of doping. This is a hard discipline, as you acknowledge, and a gain of ten or fifteen seconds on the terrrain these riders have to compete on is nothing. Passing people in a race means nothing other than that the rider with the form and the skill demonstrates his bike handling, fitness, experience and racing ability. I suspect it shows off the stronger and more competent riders even more than road cycling does. I actually don't think it right to accuse people of doping from the standpoint of a passing acquaintance with the sport and a recent interest in watching it on video, but that is perhaps the difference between us. Come up with something more solid and more people could be interested in the opinion you express. "But it sure as hell looks like it" does not cut the mustard.
Fair enough.
Just to be clear, I never said he was on some form of PEDs. I do not know. But based on my knowledge of cycling in general and his dominance in particular, I submit that is a fair question to ask in the clinic.
Like I said, lots of people have shared information about the structure of the sport and it s history. This has been a learning experience for me and I am sure others.
Until everyone thinks the sport is clean as a whistle and the clinic is shut down, it is ok to ask questions.
 
Re: Re:

the delgados said:
wrinklyvet said:
the delgados said:
You, sir, have me mistaken for someone else.
I do not recall ever supporting or defending the quote Dawg.
I readily admitted to being a complete novice, but a lot of people on both threads have shared information.
That, combined with the fact I have watched pretty much every race this year puts me on a steep learning curve.
I mean, we are not talking rocket science here. It is a pretty simple sport in which to learn the ins and outs.
And yes, I raced cat 2 on the road, but that was a lifetime ago. I even participated in a cyclo-cross race. But I was on a mountain bike and was shelled out the back almost immediately.
Now that we have my resume out of the way, lets just watch the marvel and enjoy the spectacle.
Of course I do not know if the guy is on the gear. But it sure as hell looks like it.
He may have you mistaken for someone else, but perhaps the issue here is your degree of certainty that what you see is an indication of doping. This is a hard discipline, as you acknowledge, and a gain of ten or fifteen seconds on the terrrain these riders have to compete on is nothing. Passing people in a race means nothing other than that the rider with the form and the skill demonstrates his bike handling, fitness, experience and racing ability. I suspect it shows off the stronger and more competent riders even more than road cycling does. I actually don't think it right to accuse people of doping from the standpoint of a passing acquaintance with the sport and a recent interest in watching it on video, but that is perhaps the difference between us. Come up with something more solid and more people could be interested in the opinion you express. "But it sure as hell looks like it" does not cut the mustard.
Fair enough.
Just to be clear, I never said he was on some form of PEDs. I do not know. But based on my knowledge of cycling in general and his dominance in particular, I submit that is a fair question to ask in the clinic.
Like I said, lots of people have shared information about the structure of the sport and it s history. This has been a learning experience for me and I am sure others.
Until everyone thinks the sport is clean as a whistle and the clinic is shut down, it is ok to ask questions.
It certainly is, but you must be able to see that assertions and questions are two different things. I don't know the answer either - none of us could - but go on and ask away.
 
wrinklyvet, your point is well taken.
I get the difference. That said, I am not here to write a PhD on the history of doping in cycling.

Picture me as a guy you meet at a bar and share stories and observations. Say we are are both semi-knowledgable about a cycling race we are watching on tv and start chatting about the sport; chances are if we were watching a cyclo-cross dominated by a rider, we would bring up the subject.


If you wish to talk semantics, that is fine. But that convo would get boring really quick. I have stated repeatedly that I do not know if he is using a form of PEDs. As long as I am able to state a semi-educated opinion, I will say the spectacle is suspect. I could give you at least three examples why if you wish to continue the convo. I am all in, but Im not into being told what or how how to state it.
 
the delgados said:
wrinklyvet, your point is well taken.
I get the difference. That said, I am not here to write a PhD on the history of doping in cycling.

Picture me as a guy you meet at a bar and share stories and observations. Say we are are both semi-knowledgable about a cycling race we are watching on tv and start chatting about the sport; chances are if we were watching a cyclo-cross dominated by a rider, we would bring up the subject.


If you wish to talk semantics, that is fine. But that convo would get boring really quick. I have stated repeatedly that I do not know if he is using a form of PEDs. As long as I am able to state a semi-educated opinion, I will say the spectacle is suspect. I could give you at least three examples why if you wish to continue the convo. I am all in, but Im not into being told what or how how to state it.
That's clear enough. Not a problem. I am not telling you how to state it. I merely make the observation that you say is "well taken." The difference between a question and an assertion is not merely semantics and you seem to agree. Lets call it end of story. Enjoy your day, night or whatever!
 
wrinklyvet said:
the delgados said:
wrinklyvet, your point is well taken.
I get the difference. That said, I am not here to write a PhD on the history of doping in cycling.

Picture me as a guy you meet at a bar and share stories and observations. Say we are are both semi-knowledgable about a cycling race we are watching on tv and start chatting about the sport; chances are if we were watching a cyclo-cross dominated by a rider, we would bring up the subject.


If you wish to talk semantics, that is fine. But that convo would get boring really quick. I have stated repeatedly that I do not know if he is using a form of PEDs. As long as I am able to state a semi-educated opinion, I will say the spectacle is suspect. I could give you at least three examples why if you wish to continue the convo. I am all in, but Im not into being told what or how how to state it.
That's clear enough. Not a problem. I am not telling you how to state it. I merely make the observation that you say is "well taken." The difference between a question and an assertion is not merely semantics and you seem to agree. Lets call it end of story. Enjoy your day, night or whatever!
Like
 
cross, with its stop start nature and short high intensity power bursts means that you can gain say 1 sec per corner by the corrrect distribution of power and choosing the correct line........i know this due to my own poor skills and can see a rider of equal fitness put perhaps 15 secs a lap into me due to better technique...being able to haul yourself across the last few metres of a steep mound at about 20 rpm for 3 secs might be the difference in dismounting or not and giving yourself another 2 secs advantage per lap on the one mound

van der poel rides very completely...he is a rider that combines all the elements...and as alluded to by others...he gets beaten where the skillset is similar but slightly different i.e. mtb xc

cross is very different to track and/or froome on a climb

that's not to say he's not doping but your assertions as to why he might be don't seem well formed......we don't have a mid-career sudden remarkable transformation for example......
 
gillan1969 said:
cross, with its stop start nature and short high intensity power bursts means that you can gain say 1 sec per corner by the corrrect distribution of power and choosing the correct line........i know this due to my own poor skills and can see a rider of equal fitness put perhaps 15 secs a lap into me due to better technique...being able to haul yourself across the last few metres of a steep mound at about 20 rpm for 3 secs might be the difference in dismounting or not and giving yourself another 2 secs advantage per lap on the one mound

van der poel rides very completely...he is a rider that combines all the elements...and as alluded to by others...he gets beaten where the skillset is similar but slightly different i.e. mtb xc

cross is very different to track and/or froome on a climb

that's not to say he's not doping but your assertions as to why he might be don't seem well formed......we don't have a mid-career sudden remarkable transformation for example......

I believe I have already admitted on more than one occassion that I do not have specific qualifications to submit as fact that he is using PEDs. Remember my point about two randos shooting the schit while watching a race over a beer (qm) We are now drunk. By that I mean we are repeating ourselves and basically being redundant.
A couple posts back I said I have a few theories why I find the sport highly suspect, but you say my opinions are not well formed. Yet you havent even asked what those opinions are.

I am not an expert. I do not know if he is on a PED. I have no ground-breaking news to say for sure the guy is doped. But it is kind of funny for you to say my opinions are not well formed without even acknowledging the fact I have a few reasons why.
 

ASK THE COMMUNITY

TRENDING THREADS

Latest posts