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Mathieu Van der Poel

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I find the sport highly suspect ...
You do know you're posting this in the pro road section? :lol:


Addendum by King Boonen: I think this poster is referring to the "Road" forum. The board is split into forums (Cafe, Road, MTB, etc.) which are then split into sub-forums (Professional Road Racing, General, Games and Fantasy Cycling, and The Clinic). So the clinic does fall under the "Road" forum but using the term "pro road section" may make it sound like they thought this post was in the "Professional Road Racing" sub-forum, which wouldn't be allowed.
 
gillan1969 said:
cross, with its stop start nature and short high intensity power bursts means that you can gain say 1 sec per corner by the corrrect distribution of power and choosing the correct line........i know this due to my own poor skills and can see a rider of equal fitness put perhaps 15 secs a lap into me due to better technique...being able to haul yourself across the last few metres of a steep mound at about 20 rpm for 3 secs might be the difference in dismounting or not and giving yourself another 2 secs advantage per lap on the one mound

van der poel rides very completely...he is a rider that combines all the elements...and as alluded to by others...he gets beaten where the skillset is similar but slightly different i.e. mtb xc

cross is very different to track and/or froome on a climb

that's not to say he's not doping but your assertions as to why he might be don't seem well formed......we don't have a mid-career sudden remarkable transformation for example......
This is the thing about cx and vdP. He races pretty much all year long off road, he has natural skills to start with, and his physiology is specifically perfect for cx. Perhaps if we see other talents who also start to race year long off road, we'd see more competition.

WvA clearly does not focus too much effort/time on the off road. It's pretty clear he's wasting way more energy and losing seconds here at there, likely 5-10 seconds per lap. In many ways, this is actually good for the depth in cx ... that you cannot win riding away if your technique is not very good. A big issue is the competition at the very top in men's cx is just not as deep as other sports.

This said, I'd not be surprised at all if vdP was doped to the gills! And whenever you ride folks off your wheels on non-technical areas, a la Fabian in PR, it looks very suspicious.
 
Ripper said:
gillan1969 said:
cross, with its stop start nature and short high intensity power bursts means that you can gain say 1 sec per corner by the corrrect distribution of power and choosing the correct line........i know this due to my own poor skills and can see a rider of equal fitness put perhaps 15 secs a lap into me due to better technique...being able to haul yourself across the last few metres of a steep mound at about 20 rpm for 3 secs might be the difference in dismounting or not and giving yourself another 2 secs advantage per lap on the one mound

van der poel rides very completely...he is a rider that combines all the elements...and as alluded to by others...he gets beaten where the skillset is similar but slightly different i.e. mtb xc

cross is very different to track and/or froome on a climb

that's not to say he's not doping but your assertions as to why he might be don't seem well formed......we don't have a mid-career sudden remarkable transformation for example......
This is the thing about cx and vdP. He races pretty much all year long off road, he has natural skills to start with, and his physiology is specifically perfect for cx. Perhaps if we see other talents who also start to race year long off road, we'd see more competition.

WvA clearly does not focus too much effort/time on the off road. It's pretty clear he's wasting way more energy and losing seconds here at there, likely 5-10 seconds per lap. In many ways, this is actually good for the depth in cx ... that you cannot win riding away if your technique is not very good. A big issue is the competition at the very top in men's cx is just not as deep as other sports.

This said, I'd not be surprised at all if vdP was doped to the gills! And whenever you ride folks off your wheels on non-technical areas, a la Fabian in PR, it looks very suspicious.
Heya Ripper
Curious to know where and when you say WvA wastes energy and loses seconds. Also, aside from the suggestion stated, I am curious to know how a world cyclo-cross champ can go from dominance to (relatively speaking) pack filler.
 
Delgados. Firstly apologies for mistaking you for someone. I played the man and not the ball.

Secondly what are your thoughts on yesterday's showing from Mr Pidcock? Did you see it? Absolutely dominated and a superb race. The course suited him perfectly. He smashed the CX Nats this year too. You could look at him in the same raised eyebrows as VDP. But for me the kid is a superb talent. He smashed a local TT last year one that had stood for decades and trust me. We have a lot of local hitters here one being Adam Duggleby.

Pidcock has a dream of being elite CX World champ after that I would love to see him on the road more. He's already raced the TDY and one a spring RR last season which was amazing.

Lets just dream eh? I've taken time out from the clinic because it made me bitter and I cba with the sport. Had a few looks in here now and the especially with the Freeman thing coming up.

Have a good day and once again apologies for the attack.
 
MartinGT said:
Delgados. Firstly apologies for mistaking you for someone. I played the man and not the ball.

Secondly what are your thoughts on yesterday's showing from Mr Pidcock? Did you see it? Absolutely dominated and a superb race. The course suited him perfectly. He smashed the CX Nats this year too. You could look at him in the same raised eyebrows as VDP. But for me the kid is a superb talent. He smashed a local TT last year one that had stood for decades and trust me. We have a lot of local hitters here one being Adam Duggleby.

Pidcock has a dream of being elite CX World champ after that I would love to see him on the road more. He's already raced the TDY and one a spring RR last season which was amazing.

Lets just dream eh? I've taken time out from the clinic because it made me bitter and I cba with the sport. Had a few looks in here now and the especially with the Freeman thing coming up.

Hey, man. Thank you. It is very rare when someone on the internet owns up to even the simplest of mistakes. That says a lot about you. You seem like the kind of person I would enjoy sitting down with over a beer and chatting about life in general.

The only cyclo-cross WC races I watched this year was the junior and elite men. I am sure I do not have to tell you how that unfolded. But just in case people are unaware, both the junior and elite winners rode away from the field with seeming ease.
The first few laps of the elite men s race was super exciting. I managed to delude myself into the thinking the Spanish guy might grab a medal. But I am stupid. That was never going to happen. The utter dominance shown by MVDP is simply breathtaking. Watching the race made me think about the folks here who actually defend him and say he is clean. Sorry, but in my semi-educated opinion I think that is next to impossible. He obliterated the field of the best riders in the world. Imagine if Chris Froome won solo on an epic mountain stage of the Giro. Oh, wait: We don't need to imagine; it already happened. People here would be up in arms, and rightfully so.
One funny side note is the commentary. The commentator kept referring to the slight mistake the second place finisher and stated that it cost him the race. Uh, no. Wout slipped on a steep section and managed to fix the problem in about two seconds. Sure, it cost him a relatively significant gap, but not one we couldn't close.

I find the spectacle amusing to watch while at the same time admiring the athletic ability of the riders.
 
Aug 2, 2012
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random question..............'would an effective programme allow a rider to ride more cleanly.........making less

mistakes with effort less close to threshold?'

interesting a member mentioned schurter..............imagine if a pro tour team issued so many videos promoting

the idea that they trained harder/smarter than anyone else..................
 
Re:

ebandit said:
random question..............'would an effective programme allow a rider to ride more cleanly.........making less

mistakes with effort less close to threshold?'

interesting a member mentioned schurter..............imagine if a pro tour team issued so many videos promoting

the idea that they trained harder/smarter than anyone else..................
From my admittedly superficial understanding of the effects of PEDs, I will take a stab and say yes. Seems to me the effects of a drug a rider might be taking will allow them to enter a corner or camber with relative ease. By that I mean, they have a heart rate slow enough that their eyeballs are not bulging out while trying to figure out which line in the mud to take.
 
Re:

ebandit said:
random question..............'would an effective programme allow a rider to ride more cleanly.........making less

mistakes with effort less close to threshold?'

interesting a member mentioned schurter..............imagine if a pro tour team issued so many videos promoting

the idea that they trained harder/smarter than anyone else..................
Mr Foucade or Mr Boe from biathlon may give a clue here.

Recover faster from a lesser effort = miss fewer targets.
 
the delgados said:
Ripper said:
gillan1969 said:
cross, with its stop start nature and short high intensity power bursts means that you can gain say 1 sec per corner by the corrrect distribution of power and choosing the correct line........i know this due to my own poor skills and can see a rider of equal fitness put perhaps 15 secs a lap into me due to better technique...being able to haul yourself across the last few metres of a steep mound at about 20 rpm for 3 secs might be the difference in dismounting or not and giving yourself another 2 secs advantage per lap on the one mound

van der poel rides very completely...he is a rider that combines all the elements...and as alluded to by others...he gets beaten where the skillset is similar but slightly different i.e. mtb xc

cross is very different to track and/or froome on a climb

that's not to say he's not doping but your assertions as to why he might be don't seem well formed......we don't have a mid-career sudden remarkable transformation for example......
This is the thing about cx and vdP. He races pretty much all year long off road, he has natural skills to start with, and his physiology is specifically perfect for cx. Perhaps if we see other talents who also start to race year long off road, we'd see more competition.

WvA clearly does not focus too much effort/time on the off road. It's pretty clear he's wasting way more energy and losing seconds here at there, likely 5-10 seconds per lap. In many ways, this is actually good for the depth in cx ... that you cannot win riding away if your technique is not very good. A big issue is the competition at the very top in men's cx is just not as deep as other sports.

This said, I'd not be surprised at all if vdP was doped to the gills! And whenever you ride folks off your wheels on non-technical areas, a la Fabian in PR, it looks very suspicious.
Heya Ripper
Curious to know where and when you say WvA wastes energy and loses seconds. Also, aside from the suggestion stated, I am curious to know how a world cyclo-cross champ can go from dominance to (relatively speaking) pack filler.
well a perfect example was the tricky off-camber section (steep down to left) rise in then flat with small hop. onto tarmac. Whatever lap, the two were clear with van Aert on his wheel...VdP clears and van aerts wheel slips...4 secs gone and he's got the gap...same thing next lap. If Van Aert rides it..he stays on his wheel....or if Van Aert struggling to ride it, he makes sure he's in front going into that section as he'll slow VdP down as well should he come off.....As I tried to explain to young son as we watched...you take the 2 secs loss by deliberatly jumping off at your chosen spot...or you gamble riding and then come off not at your point of choosing losing 4/5 secs.......pack filler being a clear silver medal in elite worlds??? :D
 
gillan1969 said:
the delgados said:
Ripper said:
gillan1969 said:
cross, with its stop start nature and short high intensity power bursts means that you can gain say 1 sec per corner by the corrrect distribution of power and choosing the correct line........i know this due to my own poor skills and can see a rider of equal fitness put perhaps 15 secs a lap into me due to better technique...being able to haul yourself across the last few metres of a steep mound at about 20 rpm for 3 secs might be the difference in dismounting or not and giving yourself another 2 secs advantage per lap on the one mound

van der poel rides very completely...he is a rider that combines all the elements...and as alluded to by others...he gets beaten where the skillset is similar but slightly different i.e. mtb xc

cross is very different to track and/or froome on a climb

that's not to say he's not doping but your assertions as to why he might be don't seem well formed......we don't have a mid-career sudden remarkable transformation for example......
This is the thing about cx and vdP. He races pretty much all year long off road, he has natural skills to start with, and his physiology is specifically perfect for cx. Perhaps if we see other talents who also start to race year long off road, we'd see more competition.

WvA clearly does not focus too much effort/time on the off road. It's pretty clear he's wasting way more energy and losing seconds here at there, likely 5-10 seconds per lap. In many ways, this is actually good for the depth in cx ... that you cannot win riding away if your technique is not very good. A big issue is the competition at the very top in men's cx is just not as deep as other sports.

This said, I'd not be surprised at all if vdP was doped to the gills! And whenever you ride folks off your wheels on non-technical areas, a la Fabian in PR, it looks very suspicious.
Heya Ripper
Curious to know where and when you say WvA wastes energy and loses seconds. Also, aside from the suggestion stated, I am curious to know how a world cyclo-cross champ can go from dominance to (relatively speaking) pack filler.
well a perfect example was the tricky off-camber section (steep down to left) rise in then flat with small hop. onto tarmac. Whatever lap, the two were clear with van Aert on his wheel...VdP clears and van aerts wheel slips...4 secs gone and he's got the gap...same thing next lap. If Van Aert rides it..he stays on his wheel....or if Van Aert struggling to ride it, he makes sure he's in front going into that section as he'll slow VdP down as well should he come off.....As I tried to explain to young son as we watched...you take the 2 secs loss by deliberatly jumping off at your chosen spot...or you gamble riding and then come off not at your point of choosing losing 4/5 secs.......pack filler being a clear silver medal in elite worlds??? :D
In addition, van Aert has much more difficulty jumping the obstacles. When I began watching the sport four years ago, he always ran over them. He has learned to jump them now but it seems much easier and more natural for van der Poel.

And the pack filler thing is obviously just trolling (but he does that a lot). The question could also be flipped? How did Van Aert manage to reduce van der Poel to pack filler in the last three WC's when it each season had been obvious that van der Poel had been the best rider throughout the season?

Maybe we should open a thread about that.
 
In the past seasons, there were always at least some races where Van Aert comprehensively beat Van der Poel, before the Worlds. They were pretty much considered at the same level before last season; and it is assumed that Van Aert's road campaign is the culprit. But even last season, he still had important wins in Zeven, Namur, and Bredene ... this season he's just been off.
 
Trolling.
I hate that word. The word seems of no consequence since it is used to describe all kinds of online behaviour. But enough of my whining.
The question I asked Ripper was submitted well before the WC. Wout s little mishap obviously cost him dearly. That was plain as day to see. I watched almost every cyclo-cross race this year and don't recall anything as obvious, but of course I could be wrong.
I at least partially answered tobydawgs question a page or two ago after reading and watching results from previous WC races. In one, MVDP suffered four punctures (!) which I think we can all agree would be a significant hurdle to overcome.
Other than that, I think it is an interesting question. Wout was outclassed all year, plain and simple. Hence the pack filler reference.
Yet on big race day he not only closed a fairly big gap, but managed to hang with Mathieu until he momentarily looked like a toddler trying to keep up with daddy. What up with that (qm)
 
I have a question for Flamin and anyone else who seems to know a lot about cyclo-cross and bike racing in general.
I once had the pleasure to attend Paris-Roubaix and made quick friends with a guy in the velodrome who was a hard core fan of Boonen. This was the year Boonen won solo after Hushovd over-cooked a corner and ended up on his ass.
The guy next to me was clearly a huge fan of the sport and started crying when his main man Boonen entered the velodrome by himself.
He looked to me and grabbed my arm before saying Thor took too many drugs; hence going too quick into a crucial corner. Too much dopage is what he said.
There was a slight language barrier, and I didn't want to interrupt the guy who was super excited about Boonen winning the race, so I did not ask if he was joking.
I guess my question is how many fans know these guys are not riding on bread and water alone. Is it acknowledged among the majority that doping is part of the sport (qm--my keyboard is not working and needs a little dopage)
 
Re:

the delgados said:
I have a question for Flamin and anyone else who seems to know a lot about cyclo-cross and bike racing in general.
I once had the pleasure to attend Paris-Roubaix and made quick friends with a guy in the velodrome who was a hard core fan of Boonen. This was the year Boonen won solo after Hushovd over-cooked a corner and ended up on his ***.
The guy next to me was clearly a huge fan of the sport and started crying when his main man Boonen entered the velodrome by himself.
He looked to me and grabbed my arm before saying Thor took too many drugs; hence going too quick into a crucial corner. Too much dopage is what he said.
There was a slight language barrier, and I didn't want to interrupt the guy who was super excited about Boonen winning the race, so I did not ask if he was joking.
I guess my question is how many fans know these guys are not riding on bread and water alone. Is it acknowledged among the majority that doping is part of the sport (qm--my keyboard is not working and needs a little dopage)
I met Thor one season at the ToB when he was world champ. A really nice bloke with plenty of time for fans.

Some fans new to the sport seem to think that the (without trying to singing Florence and the Machines) dark days are over and it's now more difficult to dope and get away with it. :lol:
 
@MartinGT.
We all know the narrative of the dark days being played out has occurred over and over again. It is amazing how quickly people can be tricked into believing that PEDs have vanished from the top levels of cycling.
Anyone paying attention knows the narrative is nonsense.
My question is: Who the hell are Florence and the Machines
 
Re:

the delgados said:
@MartinGT.
We all know the narrative of the dark days being played out has occurred over and over again. It is amazing how quickly people can be tricked into believing that PEDs have vanished from the top levels of cycling.
Anyone paying attention knows the narrative is nonsense.
My question is: Who the hell are Florence and the Machines
See answer
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Florence_and_the_Machine
 
the delgados said:
Ripper said:
gillan1969 said:
cross, with its stop start nature and short high intensity power bursts means that you can gain say 1 sec per corner by the corrrect distribution of power and choosing the correct line........i know this due to my own poor skills and can see a rider of equal fitness put perhaps 15 secs a lap into me due to better technique...being able to haul yourself across the last few metres of a steep mound at about 20 rpm for 3 secs might be the difference in dismounting or not and giving yourself another 2 secs advantage per lap on the one mound

van der poel rides very completely...he is a rider that combines all the elements...and as alluded to by others...he gets beaten where the skillset is similar but slightly different i.e. mtb xc

cross is very different to track and/or froome on a climb

that's not to say he's not doping but your assertions as to why he might be don't seem well formed......we don't have a mid-career sudden remarkable transformation for example......
This is the thing about cx and vdP. He races pretty much all year long off road, he has natural skills to start with, and his physiology is specifically perfect for cx. Perhaps if we see other talents who also start to race year long off road, we'd see more competition.

WvA clearly does not focus too much effort/time on the off road. It's pretty clear he's wasting way more energy and losing seconds here at there, likely 5-10 seconds per lap. In many ways, this is actually good for the depth in cx ... that you cannot win riding away if your technique is not very good. A big issue is the competition at the very top in men's cx is just not as deep as other sports.

This said, I'd not be surprised at all if vdP was doped to the gills! And whenever you ride folks off your wheels on non-technical areas, a la Fabian in PR, it looks very suspicious.
Heya Ripper
Curious to know where and when you say WvA wastes energy and loses seconds. Also, aside from the suggestion stated, I am curious to know how a world cyclo-cross champ can go from dominance to (relatively speaking) pack filler.
Hey, well a World Champs example was already given. You can pick these up from any race. Just watch the gaps entering a corner and then following - you'll see a second here, a couple there. I guess another part of it is I've raced cx and have first hand experience at the time and energy wasted on every single corner when one's skills are less than another's.

It seems pretty obvious to me that this past season in particular WvA's skills have gotten rusty, while MvdP's have improved slightly more yet again. MvdP's endurance specific to off road has also improved - a 90 minute MTB race will really extend your cx endurance, whereas a 4-5 hour road race will do nothing in regard to that type of specificity.
 
Re:

proffate said:
Power data for CX pros could be pretty interesting since it would cast light on the differences in efficiency between riders, but I don't suppose anyone publishes that.
That would be interesting, but do many race with power?

For such a short race is it pointless? They have multiple bikes and most of them, if not all wear watches. So how does that work?
 

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