Moderation

[Armchair Cyclist]

Get as incensed as you like: address the issue in doing so, do not insult the poster.

 

[Armchair Cyclist]

(as mod)
I know that @SHaines has been keen to close this thread. I argued for its retention as a place to discuss principles of moderation, and to try to find consensus on an approach. I believe it can continue as such and have a value, I think that he is less sure.

From Read before posting:Forum rules at the top of each section:
We will not allow forum posts that attempt to publicly discuss specific moderator action taken.

But the rule about discussion of moderation being not allowed remains, and given that I am also bound by that, and therefore cannot defend and explain my actions in regard to individual cases, I am not going to leave individual reactions to any sanctions or warning here. I am about to go back to the time I started as a mod her and remove all posts that could be construed as that.

The list of warnings that are available to moderators has in the last few days had 'Discussing Moderation' added to it (I hadn't suggested or requested it). I take that as meaning that those who provide the boards are getting more serious about the matter.

Publicly complaining about it is not the answer: that does not mean that you have no recourse. PM me to discuss it; PM @SHaines, or anyone else that you see in the Admins and moderators list (from the panel on the left of this screen, click Members, at the bottom of the first panel you will see Staff mambers, then Moderators); email community@futurenet.com.

 

[RedheadDane]

at the bottom of the first panel you will see Staff mambers

What will we see?

 

[Armchair Cyclist]

What will we see?

I don't know these people: probably not fair for me to refer to them as poisonous snakes.

Staff members.

 

[kingjr]

Logic must get unbanned before the last week or at least before the final stage, if Remco somehow manages to win this thing we cannot have him banned.

 

[Lequack]

Logic must get unbanned before the last week or at least before the final stage, if Remco somehow manages to win this thing we cannot have him banned.

Damn he is banned again? This is getting ridiculous. The man can't even enjoy Remco in his best form again the top riders.

 

[Ripper]

Moderation question in general (I believe this was discussed previously, but I'm not sure if it was fully resolved) - are we are not allowed to call riders silly names? Vigomort, Toddly, etc.? I've heard reference that it is a form of trolling, but is that actually the case when the focus is not an interaction with one poster or on one particular rider? Or is it only allowed in certain forums?

For context, I had a post recently edited. I'm not too concerned about the specifics on that case, I just want to know how to move forward in a way that isn't going to require too much moderation

 

[Armchair Cyclist]

Moderation question in general (I believe this was discussed previously, but I'm not sure if it was fully resolved) - are we are not allowed to call riders silly names? Vigomort, Toddly, etc.? I've heard reference that it is a form of trolling, but is that actually the case when the focus is not an interaction with one poster or on one particular rider? Or is it only allowed in certain forums?

For context, I had a post recently edited. I'm not too concerned about the specifics on that case, I just want to know how to move forward in a way that isn't going to require too much moderation

If I see something that is never going to serve any purpose other than gratuitously wind up the fans of another rider, and I am constantly being harassed to act on trolling, then I will act on this.

Please explain the benefit to rational discussion rendered by using names like Vingemort, skeletor, luck merchant, or Bambi.

 

[QueenStagiaire]

Please explain the benefit to rational discussion rendered by using names like Vingemort, skeletor, luck merchant, or Bambi.

It is entertaining and ‚grabs the reader’s attention’ and thus encourages more discussion than would happen otherwise. Of course this artificial ‚enhancement‘ could be considered not arguing in good faith and trying to offend other people but I consider it to be something that makes this more than a place where people read facts to each other.

 

[Armchair Cyclist]

Is a place where people exchange insults about others preferable?
Is a place where phrases are chosen for little effect other than to irritate others better?

I cannot believe that more positive engagement with a post will occur because the last few letters of a rider's name are changed.

 

[Nick2413]

Vingomort and Skeletor come across as cool to me, luck merchant a bit cheeky and Bambi maybe starting to get into offensive territory. So many posters use varieties of most of these it seems commonly accepted as part of the forum culture imo.

 

[ManicJack]

Calling BroDeal..............

 

[hrotha]

Can we please not cater to excitable fans with a severe grass deficiency. If they get wound up by jokey nicknames for public figures, that's a them problem

 

[Ripper]

If I see something that is never going to serve any purpose other than gratuitously wind up the fans of another rider, and I am constantly being harassed to act on trolling, then I will act on this.

Please explain the benefit to rational discussion rendered by using names like Vingemort, skeletor, luck merchant, or Bambi.

Out of that list I can really only relate to Vingemort 🙂 And I use these names because they crack me up and make light of things often taken wayyyy too seriously. Also, I've been called out on being too harsh on Teddy the Pog, and not harsh enough on Viggo Johanesman, so I wanted to even things up.

In other words, I don't come up with these ridiculous names to wind up people ... I'm actually surprised that someone would be wound up by them at all

 

[Armchair Cyclist]

So is 'loudmouth Belgian jerk' (which I have just removed multiple times) to be allowed?

If so, is there any limit as to how abusive you would want to see allowed?
If not, where does the line lie?

Vingomort and Skeletor come across as cool to me, luck merchant a bit cheeky and Bambi maybe starting to get into offensive territory.

Similar to the above questions: what is the qualitative difference between them? How is Vingomort less offensive than Bambi?

 

[Netserk]

Sometimes, various nicknames will be used without any malicious intent. I think it's important to not only allow that, but to acknowledge that such usage can be a positive contribution, even if it can also be perceived as iconoclastic.

Sometimes, in some context, that can be done excessively even while not intended maliciously. Fine to set a standard of what is excessive, and guide users as to what that is.

Sometimes, especially in an antagonistic context, it's either intended maliciously or is functionally equivalent. Perfectly fine to punish such usage.

 

[Netserk]

As an example, I don't think I've ever seen Skeletor used the least bit maliciously.

 

[Armchair Cyclist]

As an example, I don't think I've ever seen Skeletor used the least bit maliciously.

To my mind, it is describing someone as ugly, other than human, incapable of sympathetic emotion: I don't do comic books, but Wikipedia describes the character as the arch enemy of the hero of the series.
Difficult to interpret that as any other than malicious.

 

[TourOfSardinia]

So is 'loudmouth Belgian jerk' (which I have just removed multiple times) to be allowed?

If so, is there any limit as to how abusive you would want to see allowed?
If not, where does the line lie?


Similar to the above questions: what is the qualitative difference between them? How is Vingomort less offensive than Bambi?

First THANKS Armchair for your continuing efforts

Abbreviations: that don't offend should be allowed - e.g. Pog, Vingo, Cav, G
they make rapid forum exchanges possible without making embarrassing spelling mistakes.

Externally recognized nicknames: Chicken, Shark, Dawg , Condor must be okay too.

Descriptive neologisms that emerge in the forum are part of our joy e.g Pidders - okay if not offensive or in bad taste.
Border-line cases:
Skeletor - you can actually see his ribs, like Chicken
Loudmouth - only if he/she actually shouts

Offensive triggers: Death/Mort Jerk Idiot ... and worse

 

[Netserk]

To my mind, it is describing someone as ugly, other than human, incapable of sympathetic emotion: I don't do comic books, but Wikipedia describes the character as the arch enemy of the hero of the series.
Difficult to interpret that as any other than malicious.

I find it easy--in context--to interpret that as without malice. To call competitors names of comic book characters is to cast the duel as out of a comic book. It's fun. Someone will be cast as the protagonist, the other as antagonist. Skeletor is the thin one.

Afaik, @Ripper was the first to call Vingegaard Skeletor (https://forum.cyclingnews.com/search/364168/?q=skeletor&c[older_than]=2022-12-31&o=date)

LOL

While vingo is looking ridiculous right now, some folks have seemed to have forgotten that pogo is 2nd and without that one bad day may actually be even with vingo. Pogo also now has three stage wins, has been pretty insane with the watt bombs, and has had a crazy season. I know your post did not get into this, but the pogo fanboys are just about as hilarious as any.

Anyone remember pogo almost looking irritated that he could not just watt bomb van der Poel off his wheel in Flanders? I am actually glad the vingo skeletor is in the race for some competition (regardless of how it ends) otherwise this would be yet another one sided pogo stomp with the official commentators just oooooing and ahhhhing over his ever move and his perfect metabolism (or perfect blood, or whatever it is).

Since then, it has rather caught on as an endearing term. If you search for how it's been used this year, I think that's easy to see. When both supporters and non-supporters take turns in using the term, it's unlikely to be of negative valence.

 

[Nick2413]

Similar to the above questions: what is the qualitative difference between them? How is Vingomort less offensive than Bambi?

I like Vingegaard and I’ve always found his nicknames to be a parody of how Pogacar is written as the hero everybody wants to win while he’s the “evil” final boss. At the end of the day it’s just silly nicknames. Maybe Cat Killer can be gotten rid of or when people actually wish harm and suffering on riders.

 

[Berflamand]

I am a Remco fan so I'll comment on the names that people call him:

Names like Fatco, Slimco, Ramco, Belgian Simon Spilak, ... I don't mind. Those are mostly used for fun and in good faith.

Names like Bambi, Loudmouth, ... I don't particularly like. It's obvious those are only used by people who don't like him. But I also don't think they should be removed or be a bannable offence. Imo they're harmless enough to be allowed.

Names like Jerk, ... should definitely be removed. There's no reason to call someone a jerk (at least without very good cause) other than to insult them. I mean, you can say something like 'that was a jerk move' or 'he behaved like a jerk in that interview' but to (repeatedly) call someone a 'loudmouth Belgian jerk' without good cause is obviously crossing the line imo.

But after all, you are the moderator (thank you for that!) and if you feel like you are taking your decisions in all honesty and objectivity, those decisions will always be fine by me. Everybody's free to step up as moderator if they feel like they would do a better job.

I do like though that you are reaching out to the community to help you make fair and objective decisions.

 

[James M]

Or let every nickname pass that would be the most fun.

 

[Ripper]

I find it easy--in context--to interpret that as without malice. To call competitors names of comic book characters is to cast the duel as out of a comic book. It's fun. Someone will be cast as the protagonist, the other as antagonist. Skeletor is the thin one.

Afaik, @Ripper was the first to call Vingegaard Skeletor (https://forum.cyclingnews.com/search/364168/?q=skeletor&c[older_than]=2022-12-31&o=date)


Since then, it has rather caught on as an endearing term. If you search for how it's been used this year, I think that's easy to see. When both supporters and non-supporters take turns in using the term, it's unlikely to be of negative valence.

For some reason I thought someone else came up with that term first! Hilarious!

This has been a very interesting conversation, and I really need to give kudos to the moderators for putting so much effort into helping the forum be a better place for conversation. A challenging and mostly unrewarding job!

I do think there is a difference between using silly or even satirical names to describe extreme athletes in the public domain (not unlike many a comedian does with politicians), compared to something that enters into hate speech. My own personal stance has been, if somebody doesn't like a nickname of a rider because they like the rider and get "wound up" because somebody has called them skeletor, Vigomort or pogopants, then that is something for them to deal with. We cannot prevent the easily offended from intermittently being offended by reading material that is likely going to annoy them. However, if we're getting into hate speech, calling out somebody's ethnicity, sexual preferences, etc, for attacking other posters for simply having opinions, that is a clear line that is being crossed.

 

[Armchair Cyclist]

if somebody doesn't like a nickname of a rider because they like the rider and get "wound up" because somebody has called them skeletor, Vigomort or pogopants, then that is something for them to deal with. We cannot prevent the easily offended from intermittently being offended by reading material that is likely going to annoy them.

But if someone knows that such nicknames cause offence, and then continues, or seeks out extra opportunities to use the names, they can be seen to be deliberately causing upset/annoyance.

Is acting in deliberate defiance of somebody's tendency to get upset not tantamount to deliberately annoying them?