More riders complain about wattages set at tempo (by Sky)

[HelloDolly]

I have skimmed the posts on here so excuse if covered already but in the debate on SKY dominance I see people tend to focus on one solution and its tends to be doping or rider salaries

For me there are other influencing issues not least being the massive support team sky has beyond the riders,how well they recruit and how they get the best out of riders from a psychologial and training point of view

Its not that the other teams are dumb or are not trying but they not have the level of support SKY have.
SKY entered the sport and apprached wining as a science project ..and this is very reflective of their whole approach and their racing. They constantly target top climbing doms but riders that almost are prepared to give more in service that they ever did for themselves ..even the rider who have not been a 'success' at SKY have ridden hard for leaders. Its like a mantra ..And there is only one objective ...Look at Movistar doms going for it in the TT...doesn;t happen at SKY even if Froome is miles in front and they have the World TT champion on the team

They remind me of how the Roman legions were against their enemies ...not better just better drilled
They initally got Wiggins and then from there they were off and success breed success
Of course there is the law of averages in play too ..you buy three top doms every year at least one will be a find..like Poels...has the potential but not maybe to lead a GT but to work at the highest level for 4/5 mountain stages

These factors cannot be ignored when assessing SKY. They look very strong but sometimes looks can be deceiving especially in cycling. One good Tour makes you seem invincible and one bad on the rubbish heap...(How many now think Quintana wil never wn a Tour but Froome will win everyone for the next few years). Froome won on the TT, the downhill, in cross winds ...On the climbs he has not been invincible
His team seem mega strong but Landa, Poels,Nieve, Henao etc are top riders...why would they not be strong when rested and rotated in comparison to other equally talented top 10 riders who have to ride every day.

SKY appraoch can be copied successfully but you do need the cash...
Unfortunately it is too controlling in a sport where mayhew is what people desire...how often do we all go weak at the knees when we hear that riders are all over the road

SKY are winners but not sure if their approach is a total success

 

[El Pistolero]

Sky was the laughing stock of the peloton in 2010-2011 when they still had a modest budget.

 

[PremierAndrew]

Re:

Sky was the laughing stock of the peloton in 2010-2011 when they still had a modest budget.

Not once Wiggins won the Dauphine in 2011

 

[The Hegelian]

Re:

I have skimmed the posts on here so excuse if covered already but in the debate on SKY dominance I see people tend to focus on one solution and its tends to be doping or rider salaries

For me there are other influencing issues not least being the massive support team sky has beyond the riders,how well they recruit and how they get the best out of riders from a psychologial and training point of view

Its not that the other teams are dumb or are not trying but they not have the level of support SKY have.
SKY entered the sport and apprached wining as a science project ..and this is very reflective of their whole approach and their racing. They constantly target top climbing doms but riders that almost are prepared to give more in service that they ever did for themselves ..even the rider who have not been a 'success' at SKY have ridden hard for leaders. Its like a mantra ..And there is only one objective ...Look at Movistar doms going for it in the TT...doesn;t happen at SKY even if Froome is miles in front and they have the World TT champion on the team

They remind me of how the Roman legions were against their enemies ...not better just better drilled
They initally got Wiggins and then from there they were off and success breed success
Of course there is the law of averages in play too ..you buy three top doms every year at least one will be a find..like Poels...has the potential but not maybe to lead a GT but to work at the highest level for 4/5 mountain stages

These factors cannot be ignored when assessing SKY. They look very strong but sometimes looks can be deceiving especially in cycling. One good Tour makes you seem invincible and one bad on the rubbish heap...(How many now think Quintana wil never wn a Tour but Froome will win everyone for the next few years). Froome won on the TT, the downhill, in cross winds ...On the climbs he has not been invincible
His team seem mega strong but Landa, Poels,Nieve, Henao etc are top riders...why would they not be strong when rested and rotated in comparison to other equally talented top 10 riders who have to ride every day.

SKY appraoch can be copied successfully but you do need the cash...
Unfortunately it is too controlling in a sport where mayhew is what people desire...how often do we all go weak at the knees when we hear that riders are all over the road

SKY are winners but not sure if their approach is a total success

So it's actually that they're just a really good and inspired and hard working and disciplined team? Better drilled.....independent of drugs and money.....

Hmmmm.

That's like saying: I send my tax returns to the Cayman Islands because actually the palm trees are just really nice there, and it's actually quite sunny, and I like my accountant to live in the sunshine. The fact of it being a tax haven is completely incidental and arbitrary.

 

[kwikki]

Re:

I have skimmed the posts on here so excuse if covered already but in the debate on SKY dominance I see people tend to focus on one solution and its tends to be doping or rider salaries

For me there are other influencing issues not least being the massive support team sky has beyond the riders,how well they recruit and how they get the best out of riders from a psychologial and training point of view

Its not that the other teams are dumb or are not trying but they not have the level of support SKY have.
SKY entered the sport and apprached wining as a science project ..and this is very reflective of their whole approach and their racing. They constantly target top climbing doms but riders that almost are prepared to give more in service that they ever did for themselves ..even the rider who have not been a 'success' at SKY have ridden hard for leaders. Its like a mantra ..And there is only one objective ...Look at Movistar doms going for it in the TT...doesn;t happen at SKY even if Froome is miles in front and they have the World TT champion on the team

They remind me of how the Roman legions were against their enemies ...not better just better drilled
They initally got Wiggins and then from there they were off and success breed success
Of course there is the law of averages in play too ..you buy three top doms every year at least one will be a find..like Poels...has the potential but not maybe to lead a GT but to work at the highest level for 4/5 mountain stages

These factors cannot be ignored when assessing SKY. They look very strong but sometimes looks can be deceiving especially in cycling. One good Tour makes you seem invincible and one bad on the rubbish heap...(How many now think Quintana wil never wn a Tour but Froome will win everyone for the next few years). Froome won on the TT, the downhill, in cross winds ...On the climbs he has not been invincible
His team seem mega strong but Landa, Poels,Nieve, Henao etc are top riders...why would they not be strong when rested and rotated in comparison to other equally talented top 10 riders who have to ride every day.

SKY appraoch can be copied successfully but you do need the cash...
Unfortunately it is too controlling in a sport where mayhew is what people desire...how often do we all go weak at the knees when we hear that riders are all over the road

SKY are winners but not sure if their approach is a total success

That might have had some truth (although I doubt it). But remember that many riders and staff have been through the Sky system and now work for other teams. They would take with them 'the knowledge'.

That clearly hasn't happened as other teams aren't catching up, and riders aren't talking at all about changes Sky have brought to the sport.

I've yet to hear an ex-sky rider talk about marginal gains. In fact not even current Sky riders talk about it. That's because it's bollocks.

 

[Alex Simmons/RST]

Re: More riders complain about wattages set at tempo (by Sky

I found this on the WeightWeenies forum

I get that Sky has a ton of money, but literally how stupid are the other teams/GC guys?

Aero gains matter, but on a short stage with more than 800 metres of altitude gain, so does reducing weight. Riding with a disc wheel on a TT bike means you're dragging a heavier bike up the hill.

For riders of this calibre the aero benefit of a disk wheel outweighs the small extra mass on all but the very steepest of climbs.

 

[spiritualride]

I think the replies to HelloDolly are either missing their points or just completely ignoring them. People read a few sentences that sounds like the "marginal gains!" BS and just ignore the actual points.

And I don't see what the problem is if a team wants to splurge all of their resources into one race. I don't see anyone here complaining about Sky's lack of dominance outside the TDF. Yes it can make the GC for the TDF frustrating to watch. But that's sport, isn't it? Sometimes a competitor will be a step above. They're not dominating every grand tour, and haven't even won many stages in this race. Even with their extremely boring dominance in this TDF, there has still been the battles for stage wins, for the podium, and for the other jerseys. I don't expect this dominance to last forever.

Is it really a surprise if the team with the huge budget that puts most of their resources into dominating exactly one thing manages to succeed at their mission?

I'm not saying Sky is clean, obviously. But at this point, I don't really believe that they're on something special compared to everyone else. This seemed a lot more likely in 2012-2013 when they magically dominated stage races from the beginning of March. Even Armstrong had really weak form that early in the year. A shared secret between Wiggins, Froome, and Porte wouldn't be surprising but not the whole team... too many riders come and go on a team as each year goes by.

I would like to know just how useful it is for a rider to take "days off" during a grand tour in order to perform better at a latter stage. Is there a significant trend in GC riders losing performance as a grand tour gets into the third week?

But presumably they wouldn't take 'days off' if it didn't help them. I'm reminded of Armstrong's "ace card" that suddenly appeared during the queen stage of the 2004 TDF in the form of Floyd Landis, after he was rested in the Pyrenees.

 

[thehog]

Re: Re:

Leicester City blew the wage thing out of the water.

That's wrong in the first place. There will be always be the odd exception to it but in football overall, league finishes strongly correlates with wage spend.

See Soccernomics.

The wage aspect buys loyalty not the best riders. All of Froome's team are earning so much they don't need to do anything to keep their contract other than demonstrate loyalty to the chosen leader.

Saxo is a good example of what happens when salaries are lower and there's no contract for the following year.

 

[thehog]

Re: More riders complain about wattages set at tempo (by Sky

http://velonews.competitor.com/2016/07/tour-de-france/tinkoff-sport-director-science-behind-froomes-dominance_415621

VeloNews: Can you explain Sky’s tactics on the climbs?

Sean Yates: On the main climbs or the points where it’s crucial, Sky sits at the front and rides a very high tempo. They’re all riding at threshold, and when you’ve got very good guys riding at threshold, about 450w, or in VAM, they’re climbing 1600 or 1700, so to attack, you’ve got to go 1900 for a short period of time, which means you go over your threshold, which means you pay for it.

VN: So everyone is essentially going as fast as they can; what happens when you ‘pay for it?’

SY: You can only go over your threshold for 30 seconds or 1 minute, and then you have a big dip in power. So consequently, by the time when you attack, and the time you recover from that attack, you’re going slower. And when you have such a strong team, setting such a high tempo, it’s virtually impossible to attack.

450w *** me!

 

[red_flanders]

Re: More riders complain about wattages set at tempo (by Sky

http://velonews.competitor.com/2016/07/tour-de-france/tinkoff-sport-director-science-behind-froomes-dominance_415621

VeloNews: Can you explain Sky’s tactics on the climbs?

Sean Yates: On the main climbs or the points where it’s crucial, Sky sits at the front and rides a very high tempo. They’re all riding at threshold, and when you’ve got very good guys riding at threshold, about 450w, or in VAM, they’re climbing 1600 or 1700, so to attack, you’ve got to go 1900 for a short period of time, which means you go over your threshold, which means you pay for it.

VN: So everyone is essentially going as fast as they can; what happens when you ‘pay for it?’

SY: You can only go over your threshold for 30 seconds or 1 minute, and then you have a big dip in power. So consequently, by the time when you attack, and the time you recover from that attack, you’re going slower. And when you have such a strong team, setting such a high tempo, it’s virtually impossible to attack.

450w **** me!

Bigger budget allows you to defy the laws of physics, dontcha know??

 

[justifieddoubter]

Re:

Froomes attack sticks. It stuck at Ventoux. I'm sure if Quintana gives it a nice go, it'll stick. Even Ritchie.

have you ever seen a Froome attack fail? His success rate goes beyond being smart to improbable...impossible by normal means

 

[fmk_RoI]

Re:

Sky was the laughing stock of the peloton in 2010-2011 when they still had a modest budget.

I do love your definition of modest: £14.6-£16.7 million

 

[warrior4life]

Re:

I have skimmed the posts on here so excuse if covered already but in the debate on SKY dominance I see people tend to focus on one solution and its tends to be doping or rider salaries

For me there are other influencing issues not least being the massive support team sky has beyond the riders,how well they recruit and how they get the best out of riders from a psychologial and training point of view

Its not that the other teams are dumb or are not trying but they not have the level of support SKY have.
SKY entered the sport and apprached wining as a science project ..and this is very reflective of their whole approach and their racing. They constantly target top climbing doms but riders that almost are prepared to give more in service that they ever did for themselves ..even the rider who have not been a 'success' at SKY have ridden hard for leaders. Its like a mantra ..And there is only one objective ...Look at Movistar doms going for it in the TT...doesn;t happen at SKY even if Froome is miles in front and they have the World TT champion on the team

They remind me of how the Roman legions were against their enemies ...not better just better drilled
They initally got Wiggins and then from there they were off and success breed success
Of course there is the law of averages in play too ..you buy three top doms every year at least one will be a find..like Poels...has the potential but not maybe to lead a GT but to work at the highest level for 4/5 mountain stages

These factors cannot be ignored when assessing SKY. They look very strong but sometimes looks can be deceiving especially in cycling. One good Tour makes you seem invincible and one bad on the rubbish heap...(How many now think Quintana wil never wn a Tour but Froome will win everyone for the next few years). Froome won on the TT, the downhill, in cross winds ...On the climbs he has not been invincible
His team seem mega strong but Landa, Poels,Nieve, Henao etc are top riders...why would they not be strong when rested and rotated in comparison to other equally talented top 10 riders who have to ride every day.

SKY appraoch can be copied successfully but you do need the cash...
Unfortunately it is too controlling in a sport where mayhew is what people desire...how often do we all go weak at the knees when we hear that riders are all over the road

SKY are winners but not sure if their approach is a total success

Sky are basically Discovery.

 

[kwikki]

Re: More riders complain about wattages set at tempo (by Sky

http://velonews.competitor.com/2016/07/tour-de-france/tinkoff-sport-director-science-behind-froomes-dominance_415621

VeloNews: Can you explain Sky’s tactics on the climbs?

Sean Yates: On the main climbs or the points where it’s crucial, Sky sits at the front and rides a very high tempo. They’re all riding at threshold, and when you’ve got very good guys riding at threshold, about 450w, or in VAM, they’re climbing 1600 or 1700, so to attack, you’ve got to go 1900 for a short period of time, which means you go over your threshold, which means you pay for it.

VN: So everyone is essentially going as fast as they can; what happens when you ‘pay for it?’

SY: You can only go over your threshold for 30 seconds or 1 minute, and then you have a big dip in power. So consequently, by the time when you attack, and the time you recover from that attack, you’re going slower. And when you have such a strong team, setting such a high tempo, it’s virtually impossible to attack.

450w **** me!

Bigger budget allows you to defy the laws of physics, dontcha know??

Physiology not physics :geek:

 

[thehog]

Re: More riders complain about wattages set at tempo (by Sky

Large drop in TV ratings #TDF2016 : -32% Holland -25% Spain -16% Flanders -12% France -10% UK -10% Germany -5% USA #aso @sporza_koers

Confirmed, the most boring Tour of all time. Even in the UK

 

[kwikki]

The cycling bubble in the UK burst a year or two ago in terms of cycle sales.

Everyone is into Pokémon go these days.

 

[thehog]

Re:

The cycling bubble in the UK burst a year or two ago in terms of cycle sales.

Everyone is into Pokémon go these days.

Wiggo winning Olympic gold will bring them all back!

 

[pastronef]

Re: Re:

The cycling bubble in the UK burst a year or two ago in terms of cycle sales.

Everyone is into Pokémon go these days.

Wiggo winning Olympic gold will bring them all back!

hopefully.
dont care about fans or tv or sales.

I just want to see them getting that gold.

 

[kwikki]

Re: Re:

The cycling bubble in the UK burst a year or two ago in terms of cycle sales.

Everyone is into Pokémon go these days.

Wiggo winning Olympic gold will bring them all back!

Well, that looks on the cards. They are well ahead in team pursuit.

Froome will be villified for losing to Valverde. Cav for getting beaten by Gaviria.

That should balance things out.

 

[thehog]

Re: Re:

The cycling bubble in the UK burst a year or two ago in terms of cycle sales.

Everyone is into Pokémon go these days.

Wiggo winning Olympic gold will bring them all back!

Well, that looks on the cards. They are well ahead in team pursuit.

Froome will be villified for losing to Valverde. Cav for getting beaten by Gaviria.

That should balance things out.

Poles winning over Froome will bring the viewers back... didn't see enough of him in the Tour :lol:

 

[thehog]

Re: More riders complain about wattages set at tempo (by Sky

"They take away a lot of spectacle and make you race more cautiously," Quintana said. "I'd be the first in line to say they should be banned."

"I think they’re really useful for training, but they take out a lot of drama from the sport," added Valverde. "In competition you should be racing on feelings."

Quintana and Valverde made their joint call during Tuesday's rest day press conference in the Vuelta, 24 hours after Quintana regained the overall lead thanks to a spectacular solo win at the Lagos de Covadonga.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/quintana-calls-for-power-meters-to-be-banned-from-racing/

 

[zigmeister]

Why stop their Quintana? HR monitors, speedometers, your typical bike computer...shoot, why even have radios and the cheat sheet on your bike? If you want to talk purist, then let's be a purist. Not a pseudo-purist...back to the 70s then.

 

[Black Betsy]

Re:

Why stop their Quintana? HR monitors, speedometers, your typical bike computer...shoot, why even have radios and the cheat sheet on your bike? If you want to talk purist, then let's be a purist. Not a pseudo-purist...back to the 70s then.

The last purist died the moment the first sport event occurred

 

[thehog]

Re: More riders complain about wattages set at tempo (by Sky

Interesting statement and I would not disagree. Young Shleck looked great on a bike, massively doped but wouldn't Ben good enough to hold the wheel of the Dawg

Andy Schleck to L'Equipe: "With my 2010 TdF level, probably I would not be in the top 5 of Le Tour these days."

 

[rick james]

so the thread is called "More riders complain about wattages set at tempo (by Sky)" yet all I've seen is Rolland have a wee moan...top work guys