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Riders will have talked about the Koppenberg display. Seen things in the pits and backs of vans.
If I were a rider still, I'd go to the jury and state that there could be electronics spattered over the venue as I make an oopsie against that particular bike. Handle it, or it will be handled. The press is here, do you want them to do it for you?
Then again, with a brother already sitting out a ban, UCI may have decided to make the family the scapegoat. It would be hilarious if UCI would have had that bike planted after the rider oversold her doping at Koppenberg. Fact sofar seem to point toward plain intent by the family. Too many anti doping visits. You have to do something to make sure you get the results you "deserve".
If I were a rider still, I'd go to the jury and state that there could be electronics spattered over the venue as I make an oopsie against that particular bike. Handle it, or it will be handled. The press is here, do you want them to do it for you?
Then again, with a brother already sitting out a ban, UCI may have decided to make the family the scapegoat. It would be hilarious if UCI would have had that bike planted after the rider oversold her doping at Koppenberg. Fact sofar seem to point toward plain intent by the family. Too many anti doping visits. You have to do something to make sure you get the results you "deserve".
yeah, that's a plausible scenario.
Without complaints/tip-offs from other riders and/or other riders' daddies/coaches,
UKAD wouldn't have looked at Gabriel Evans, UCI wouldn't have looked at Femke vd Driessche.
Without complaints/tip-offs from other riders and/or other riders' daddies/coaches,
UKAD wouldn't have looked at Gabriel Evans, UCI wouldn't have looked at Femke vd Driessche.
Re: This wheel motor. Where is the power source? Presumably a battery? It won't work without stored energy!
Re: Mechanical doping: first rider caught
In concept, you could use electromagnets and/or permanent magnets in the rim and in the frame to make an electric motor. In electric motor terms, the rim is the rotor, the frame is the stator. The rim could contain tightly wound coils (hundreds of turns of wire) for an electromagnet, or permanent magnets. But you need a battery to power the motor i.e. supply current to the electromagnets, wires to conduct that current to the rotating rim and frame, and circuits/sensors to rapidly turn the current on and off. You also need the frame-mounted magnets to be very close to the rim-mounted magnets. In electric motor terms, the "air gap" between rotor and stator must be very small, usually less than 1 mm (edit: for small electric motors, very big industrial ones can have 3-6 mm) , or the motors don't work. That's because the strength of the magnetic field from an electromagnet drops off with the cube of distance. If you're trying to conceal the coils or magnets inside the carbon rim and inside the frame, and trying to make it look like a conventional bike (where stays are not just a couple mm from the rim), then I don't think you can have an air gap small enough for this concept to work in practice.
So, basically, I think the reporter got fed a line. He should have fact checked with an electrical engineer or physicist at the local university.
Merckx index said:
In concept, you could use electromagnets and/or permanent magnets in the rim and in the frame to make an electric motor. In electric motor terms, the rim is the rotor, the frame is the stator. The rim could contain tightly wound coils (hundreds of turns of wire) for an electromagnet, or permanent magnets. But you need a battery to power the motor i.e. supply current to the electromagnets, wires to conduct that current to the rotating rim and frame, and circuits/sensors to rapidly turn the current on and off. You also need the frame-mounted magnets to be very close to the rim-mounted magnets. In electric motor terms, the "air gap" between rotor and stator must be very small, usually less than 1 mm (edit: for small electric motors, very big industrial ones can have 3-6 mm) , or the motors don't work. That's because the strength of the magnetic field from an electromagnet drops off with the cube of distance. If you're trying to conceal the coils or magnets inside the carbon rim and inside the frame, and trying to make it look like a conventional bike (where stays are not just a couple mm from the rim), then I don't think you can have an air gap small enough for this concept to work in practice.
So, basically, I think the reporter got fed a line. He should have fact checked with an electrical engineer or physicist at the local university.
Re:
Generating current in this manner uses eddy fields. Look at the "Magnic Light" for a real world example, those are bike lights powered by the eddy current generated when a conductive alloy rim is rotated through the magnetic field of a permanent magnet. The eddy current creates a small electrical current in a coil which drives a LED.
The amount of power generated is very small, just enough to power a 40 lumen LED, which is probably about 2 watts.
The permanent magnet has to be extremely close to the conductive rim. For Magnic Lights, magnet-rim clearance has to be 1-2 mm. That's going to look pretty weird on a WT bike, if it is even possible - note the carbon of the rim is some mm's thick.
Generating this eddy current results in a force resisting the wheel's rotation. So if you used the eddy current from rim rotation to power a hub motor to cause rim rotation - nothing would happen. There's no such thing as a perpetual motion machine.
In concept, you could use the eddy current to slowly charge a battery (over hours), then use the stored energy in the battery to drive the hub motor (for seconds). Not practical.
As I said, I think the reporter was fed a line.
Merckx index said:
Generating current in this manner uses eddy fields. Look at the "Magnic Light" for a real world example, those are bike lights powered by the eddy current generated when a conductive alloy rim is rotated through the magnetic field of a permanent magnet. The eddy current creates a small electrical current in a coil which drives a LED.
The amount of power generated is very small, just enough to power a 40 lumen LED, which is probably about 2 watts.
The permanent magnet has to be extremely close to the conductive rim. For Magnic Lights, magnet-rim clearance has to be 1-2 mm. That's going to look pretty weird on a WT bike, if it is even possible - note the carbon of the rim is some mm's thick.
Generating this eddy current results in a force resisting the wheel's rotation. So if you used the eddy current from rim rotation to power a hub motor to cause rim rotation - nothing would happen. There's no such thing as a perpetual motion machine.
In concept, you could use the eddy current to slowly charge a battery (over hours), then use the stored energy in the battery to drive the hub motor (for seconds). Not practical.
As I said, I think the reporter was fed a line.
Re:
electromagnetically driven rear wheel.......think wind turbine, the wheel is the power source turning magnets around a coil....
Chipist said:
electromagnetically driven rear wheel.......think wind turbine, the wheel is the power source turning magnets around a coil....
Re: Re:
Are you pulling my pud here? Either there is a charged battery from the start, a battery is charged on the downhill or flat sections, or the energy is coming from the rider to drive the motor when in use which defeats the object! In that scenario it would just be another form of transmission, a chain based mechanism is already highly efficient.
Benotti69 said:
Are you pulling my pud here? Either there is a charged battery from the start, a battery is charged on the downhill or flat sections, or the energy is coming from the rider to drive the motor when in use which defeats the object! In that scenario it would just be another form of transmission, a chain based mechanism is already highly efficient.
Re: Mechanical doping: first rider caught
In principle, wheel drives could work like regenerative braking, especially if the magnets were placed in calipers and the travel/throw on the calipers large. But, like jyl says, inverse cube law. And you've only got two points to cross the field, seat stays and chain stays. Even with rare earth magnets, it doesn't seem like you'd gain that many watts, however, in a race with frequent braking, it might be worthwhile. I'm decades out of doing the math, so I'll happily be schooled about the achievable current.
Also, there used to be an iphone app called "EMF meter", which accessed the all of the iphone's EMF sensors, and displayed the raw outputs. Just slowly swipe it around a bike and you'll see a signal jump and find any motors.
In principle, wheel drives could work like regenerative braking, especially if the magnets were placed in calipers and the travel/throw on the calipers large. But, like jyl says, inverse cube law. And you've only got two points to cross the field, seat stays and chain stays. Even with rare earth magnets, it doesn't seem like you'd gain that many watts, however, in a race with frequent braking, it might be worthwhile. I'm decades out of doing the math, so I'll happily be schooled about the achievable current.
Also, there used to be an iphone app called "EMF meter", which accessed the all of the iphone's EMF sensors, and displayed the raw outputs. Just slowly swipe it around a bike and you'll see a signal jump and find any motors.
Freddythefrog said:“If these are in widespread use remains to be seen,” said Cookson.
I put that into Google translate. I selected bul**** to English and it came out with "we have thrown a small fry under the bus, but don't worry we are leaving all the big fish alone - keep buying all your Sky kit and £6k bikes - continue to believe folks, we are not tainting the fairy story - I love my salary and perks - this gravy train has to continue rolling."
Brian is after all cheaters - we will catch you sooner or later! That is great news.
Quick somebody tell him, the guy on the right of him in this selfie got away with it.
So Bajrne, Canc JV and Hejersdal can get away with it, the Dawg has to put the brakes on going into bends on climbs - 6 years after the first video evidence of Spartacus pressing a button on a Sram gearshifter set that has no button in that location and the first "little fish" is caught - greased lightning, on it like a flash. No way is this girl doing it on her own, got be to quite some network behind her. Who did she see doing it first? When did she, her father and brother hear about it all. When did they witness one of the big stars getting away with it and say "we can have a bit of that !" Got to be some officials also involved, turning a blind eye.
Great post.
Robert21 said:
I have argued that Armstrong, too, is a victim of corruption in sport (see Manifesto thread, stickied above). (Justifiable) antipathy to Armstrong can make this difficult to see; but the predicament of this young Belgian throws it into the clear light of day. When you are young and all the mentors and influencers in your life are telling you this is the way business is done, you are inclined to listen - especially if it leads to success. This doesn't make either Armstrong or this girl any less culpable, but it does help explain how they became culpable, and why corruption in sport is so pernicious. It isn't just Armstrong, this girl, and the many others like them that should be indicted, it's the (former) sport and the system that spawned them that deserve indictment. These people are just its inevitable outcome.
Thanks for pointing out the situation of Alex Halsall and the Independent article. Up to now I've been under the misapprehension that it is only American jurisprudence that has strayed into the cruel and unusual, the territory of arbitrary overcharging and disproportionate sentencing that make a total mockery of justice. The situation makes systemic corruption in sport look like small potatoes.
BullsFan22 said:
Thanks, bro. It just seems like this event is a bit of a watershed, in that it confirms what many of us have strongly suspected: this form of cheating has been ongoing at the higher levels of the sport, and the UCI knows about it and has made only token moves against it. I was just as gullible as anyone. When Cancellara was winning those Classics so (un)convincingly, I was running around here calling him the "Wattage Cottage". It seems pretty certain now that a far better name would be "Fraud Clod".
Re: Re:
(Until, I guess, they feel that it to their advantage to 'turn on the waterworks' and play the role of the 'weak and feeble woman', helplessly under the control of some fiendish male, leering and twisting the ends of his waxed moustache.
)
Seriously though, what many are effectively assuming (and saying in public) is that the father here was in an abusive relationship with his daughter. Now this is a very serious allegation and not one that should be made lightly, and so far there no proof that such an abusive relationship existed. Even the fact that he appeared in public to defend her is being held against him. Someone on the team might have been the driving force here, or the rider herself, or some third party. OK, so the father might have also had a role, but no one should be effectively throwing a charge of 'child abuser' at him until some solid evidence of this emerges.
Of course that can happen. (Just as men can be the victims of abusive women.) However, in this day and age, I thought that the default position was that the vast majority of women are quite capable of making their own choices, and in turn taking responsibility for their own actions.frenchfry said:
(Until, I guess, they feel that it to their advantage to 'turn on the waterworks' and play the role of the 'weak and feeble woman', helplessly under the control of some fiendish male, leering and twisting the ends of his waxed moustache.
)Seriously though, what many are effectively assuming (and saying in public) is that the father here was in an abusive relationship with his daughter. Now this is a very serious allegation and not one that should be made lightly, and so far there no proof that such an abusive relationship existed. Even the fact that he appeared in public to defend her is being held against him. Someone on the team might have been the driving force here, or the rider herself, or some third party. OK, so the father might have also had a role, but no one should be effectively throwing a charge of 'child abuser' at him until some solid evidence of this emerges.
Am I the only one that thinks EPS and Di2 type systems open the door to this? If someone is willing to take calf's blood or perform a self back-alley transfusion, I don't know why anyone would be remotely surprised at the use of any mechanical "doping"
It's cool on consumer bikes. It's lighter touch and no tactile friction during shifts, there are improvements with it but now riders don't just have an excuse but they need to have relatively large batteries on/in their bikes. The electro-magnetic rim doesn't seem like you could generate enough work with that amount of surface area to work with (just the chain and seat stays, right?) Unless maybe you had some sort of very advanced rail inside the set tube, it could be a rail like a maglev train has and then have it "pull" the wheel; that stuff needs super conductors and immense amount of power to work though.
Are those etap signals jam proof? It wouldn't be possible to send a control word to a competitors etap and have it drop a chain or anything, right?
I think they should lower the weight limit, now the disc brakes and battery powered shifters are practical within the UCI limit, it should be lowered. Let the pros use it but at a weight penalty.
It's cool on consumer bikes. It's lighter touch and no tactile friction during shifts, there are improvements with it but now riders don't just have an excuse but they need to have relatively large batteries on/in their bikes. The electro-magnetic rim doesn't seem like you could generate enough work with that amount of surface area to work with (just the chain and seat stays, right?) Unless maybe you had some sort of very advanced rail inside the set tube, it could be a rail like a maglev train has and then have it "pull" the wheel; that stuff needs super conductors and immense amount of power to work though.
Are those etap signals jam proof? It wouldn't be possible to send a control word to a competitors etap and have it drop a chain or anything, right?
I think they should lower the weight limit, now the disc brakes and battery powered shifters are practical within the UCI limit, it should be lowered. Let the pros use it but at a weight penalty.
Re: Mechanical doping: first rider caught
Another reason why I think power data should be made public on Strava for all riders immediately after a race as it will help identify any anomalies from mechanical doping. E.g. someone busting loose doing 100W less. It'll show less power since none of the motor assist will apply to strain/torque on the crankset in which power meters derive power. The other is velocity which will be helped by the motor.
Obviously not 100% correct (drafting, bike/rider weight, etc.), just another tool in the tool box.
I also think it will make pro cycling more popular and less dark and insular. People like big numbers!
Another reason why I think power data should be made public on Strava for all riders immediately after a race as it will help identify any anomalies from mechanical doping. E.g. someone busting loose doing 100W less. It'll show less power since none of the motor assist will apply to strain/torque on the crankset in which power meters derive power. The other is velocity which will be helped by the motor.
Obviously not 100% correct (drafting, bike/rider weight, etc.), just another tool in the tool box.
I also think it will make pro cycling more popular and less dark and insular. People like big numbers!
thehog
BANNED
Re: Mechanical doping: first rider caught
Like Froome's heart rate on Ventoux when he attacked multiple times?
jahn said:
Like Froome's heart rate on Ventoux when he attacked multiple times?
It looks like she switches her engine off at the last second of this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=816tCVvCOpY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=816tCVvCOpY
Until a professional rider is nabbed, this story doesn't have any legs. (pun slightly intended) From what I've read her father seems pretty shady and he would stop at nothing to see his kids succeed. (Brother got popped) Now I'm not saying it isn't happening as one of the videos I saw of Spartacus was suspicious but until someone at the highest level gets caught red-handed this is a non-story. They (meaning riders/ds/teams) will simply dismiss it as an isolated incident - some young girl cheating because of the pressure her father put on her.
Re:
But how can you say this is a non-story when they just caught someone with a mechanized bike???
Do you actually believe some female Belgian cross champ is the first and only one to have used this technology?
This stinks of the same fetid stench as when they catch a few third-rate pros and tell us doping isn't pervasive, but only practiced by a few bad apples.
A couple of things CN omitted from the la Gazzetta article, which I don't know if for censorship or something else. In any case, the article said the technology works better with a very high pedal cadence, which obviously calls to mind Froome, while it also mentioned that Contador's frequent wheel changes have garnished much criticism.
These things don't prove anything of course, but it's pretty foolish to write this off as a n0n-story at this point.
WildspokeJoe said:
But how can you say this is a non-story when they just caught someone with a mechanized bike???
Do you actually believe some female Belgian cross champ is the first and only one to have used this technology?
This stinks of the same fetid stench as when they catch a few third-rate pros and tell us doping isn't pervasive, but only practiced by a few bad apples.
A couple of things CN omitted from the la Gazzetta article, which I don't know if for censorship or something else. In any case, the article said the technology works better with a very high pedal cadence, which obviously calls to mind Froome, while it also mentioned that Contador's frequent wheel changes have garnished much criticism.
These things don't prove anything of course, but it's pretty foolish to write this off as a n0n-story at this point.
I don't post much but here it is.
When I first heard about motorized doping I hypothesised a brushless DC motor with the front wheel acting as the permanent magnet with stator windings in the forks. Battery storage could be anywhere in the frame.
The kicker is that regenerative charging would be MUCH better than the seat tube BB system.
Using the front or rear with stator windings in stays, fork and or seat tube won't be a high-power output but 40-75 watts is a game changer.
I think that looking for otherworldly jumps is a red herring, having 75 watts as needed could look very subtle but have a completely dominating effect.
When I first heard about motorized doping I hypothesised a brushless DC motor with the front wheel acting as the permanent magnet with stator windings in the forks. Battery storage could be anywhere in the frame.
The kicker is that regenerative charging would be MUCH better than the seat tube BB system.
Using the front or rear with stator windings in stays, fork and or seat tube won't be a high-power output but 40-75 watts is a game changer.
I think that looking for otherworldly jumps is a red herring, having 75 watts as needed could look very subtle but have a completely dominating effect.
Re:
It was the World Champs...no legs??? This girl got caught because here was something obviously wrong with her bike in front of others.
Who is going to catch those at the highest levels? They are trying to hide the top level dopers.
Did you forget McQuaid sitting on Contadors positive? Did you forget Verbruggen introducing Bruyneel and Armstrong to Martial Saugy head of Lausanne lab to help them better understand how to beat anti-doping tests?
WildspokeJoe said:
It was the World Champs...no legs??? This girl got caught because here was something obviously wrong with her bike in front of others.
Who is going to catch those at the highest levels? They are trying to hide the top level dopers.
Did you forget McQuaid sitting on Contadors positive? Did you forget Verbruggen introducing Bruyneel and Armstrong to Martial Saugy head of Lausanne lab to help them better understand how to beat anti-doping tests?
so that girls father was bankrupt. Her brother was caught for dope. And the story was last year she gave a bike to a friend (sure), that friend added the motor (sure), then brought the bike to the material camper (sure) and then the mechanics accidentely mistook it for Femke's spare bike and brought it with the race.
Most laughable excuse story but also clearly a no good family
Most laughable excuse story but also clearly a no good family
Eddy the clown giving us a laugh!
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/merckx-calls-for-life-bans-for-motorised-doping-offences/
He got caught three times! How about a lifetime ban for Eddy and I bet he would've used a motor in his frame.
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/merckx-calls-for-life-bans-for-motorised-doping-offences/
He got caught three times! How about a lifetime ban for Eddy and I bet he would've used a motor in his frame.
Lol, the Belgian press has been all over this friend of Femke already, camping in front of his house and stuff to get a comment. Pretty much his entire private life can be found on the internet. Gotta love the media
He didn't want to react btw. He only said that it's his bike...
He didn't want to react btw. He only said that it's his bike...
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