Motor doping thread

[kielbasa]

Re:

Inventor of hidden motors accuses UCI of blocking motor tests at 2016 Tour de France.

Kathy LeMond tells Shane Stokes,

“Stefano did speak with the gendarmes at the Tour this year,” she said. “He explained how the motor doping works and how to catch the cyclists using motors.

“The gendarmes were not able to test the bikes themselves and were relying on the UCI to carry out the tests.

“The UCI refused to test the bikes in the manner Stefano recommended to uncover motor usage. Stefano believes the manner in which the UCI carried out the tests is insufficient to detect motor usage.”

UCI refusing Gendarmes to test bikes is not good.

Do the gendarmes have authority to check if people are putting motors in bikes? Is that illegal in France?

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

Inventor of hidden motors accuses UCI of blocking motor tests at 2016 Tour de France.

Kathy LeMond tells Shane Stokes,

“Stefano did speak with the gendarmes at the Tour this year,” she said. “He explained how the motor doping works and how to catch the cyclists using motors.

“The gendarmes were not able to test the bikes themselves and were relying on the UCI to carry out the tests.

“The UCI refused to test the bikes in the manner Stefano recommended to uncover motor usage. Stefano believes the manner in which the UCI carried out the tests is insufficient to detect motor usage.”

UCI refusing Gendarmes to test bikes is not good.

Do the gendarmes have authority to check if people are putting motors in bikes? Is that illegal in France?

Sporting fraud is a crime in France.

 

[Benotti69]

Jean Pierre Verdy former French anti doping director says riders came to him to talk about motors in the TdF

 

[Benotti69]

Re:

The Stade 2 docu with English subs.
Must see for those interested in the topic.
https://twitter.com/EwonSprokler/status/786605113485864960

on youtube

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=johF_tP1JEY

 

[kielbasa]

Re: Re:

Inventor of hidden motors accuses UCI of blocking motor tests at 2016 Tour de France.

Kathy LeMond tells Shane Stokes,

“Stefano did speak with the gendarmes at the Tour this year,” she said. “He explained how the motor doping works and how to catch the cyclists using motors.

“The gendarmes were not able to test the bikes themselves and were relying on the UCI to carry out the tests.

“The UCI refused to test the bikes in the manner Stefano recommended to uncover motor usage. Stefano believes the manner in which the UCI carried out the tests is insufficient to detect motor usage.”

UCI refusing Gendarmes to test bikes is not good.

Do the gendarmes have authority to check if people are putting motors in bikes? Is that illegal in France?

Sporting fraud is a crime in France.

Well, funny those French are. The police appear to have the authority to random check people for sporting fraud, yet when told to get lost by some federation based in Switzerland, they'll happily oblige.

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

Inventor of hidden motors accuses UCI of blocking motor tests at 2016 Tour de France.

Kathy LeMond tells Shane Stokes,

“Stefano did speak with the gendarmes at the Tour this year,” she said. “He explained how the motor doping works and how to catch the cyclists using motors.

“The gendarmes were not able to test the bikes themselves and were relying on the UCI to carry out the tests.

“The UCI refused to test the bikes in the manner Stefano recommended to uncover motor usage. Stefano believes the manner in which the UCI carried out the tests is insufficient to detect motor usage.”

UCI refusing Gendarmes to test bikes is not good.

Do the gendarmes have authority to check if people are putting motors in bikes? Is that illegal in France?

Sporting fraud is a crime in France.

Well, funny those French are. The police appear to have the authority to random check people for sporting fraud, yet when told to get lost by some federation based in Switzerland, they'll happily oblige.

Money has a lot of influence. Police forces are not immune.

 

[Bolder]

Re: Moto-fraud: first rider caught

Trust me, your average gendarme is no brighter than your average UCI inspector. Sporting fraud may be a crime but you still have to have evidence, open an investigation etc. You can't just test because Kathy LeMond or a mad hungarian asks you to. This story delivered nothing. I actually do think motors have been used in the pro peloton but not in any major races or tours.

 

[elduggo]

Re: Re:

Gilroys rep is on the line here too.

it actually isn't though. Gilroy's paycheck comes from the radio station that hosts his show. He's been part of the furniture of that station for most of its history (it was orginally a local Dublin station, now a national station), apart from a few years where he took a break and the Second Captain's lads hosted that slot.

Off The Ball has a huge listenership in Ireland, mostly, I would say, due to it's soccer coverage. Cycling isn't really that big a deal for them. They give it plenty of coverage but it isn't responsible for them getting a whole pile of extra listeners. If Gilroy was to break a cycling story that turned out to be false, it won't affect the numbers listening to his show even a little bit.

And though the rest of the world can now tune in via their podcasts and live feed on their website, its primarily what happens at home that determines how successful Gilroy, and his show, are.

If Gilroy breaks a story that goes global then his profile will obviously rise. If he doesn't, or if it turns out to be a non-story, then no harm done.

I don't think Gilroy wants egg on his face at any level. I would hazard a guess that Gilroy takes his job seriously, hence the coverage of doping in sports. I don't think he would feel no harm done if Varjas turns out to be nothing more than a publicity seeker.

I would think that Gilroy got a second opinion from someone trusted before giving airtime over to Varjas.

absolutely. Don't get me wrong here. I wasn't for a second suggesting that, because cycling isn't going to affect the numbers of listeners to his show, that he's going to throw out any old rubbish. I was just responding to the suggesting that his reputation is somehow on the line with this story.

He is a very reputable and respected journalist. And absolutely, he will dot every 'i' and cross every 't', before he releases any story.

I thought it was quite telling how disappointed he was with himself straight after the Armstrong interview that he hadn't thought to ask him various other questions that he had planned to. That interview went off in so many tangents though, it was always going to be hard to ask everything he wanted in the limited time he had.

Gilroy is top class. That isn't going to change anytime soon.

 

[elduggo]

Re: Moto-fraud: first rider caught

but you still have to have evidence, open an investigation etc.

I think if a story broke that a gendarme had detected a motor, it would grow serious legs.

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Moto-fraud: first rider caught

but you still have to have evidence, open an investigation etc.

I think if a story broke that a gendarme had detected a motor, it would grow serious legs.

I think the Gendarmes would be reluctant to go against ASO/TdF. It is a handy gig for a lot of them. It would take someone high up to make the call that might damage ASO and France's biggest tourism expo.

 

[MmeDesgrange]

Now imagine if someone had tested a Stefano bike then had it tested with a UCI scanner and it turned up absolutely nothing (this has happened)

 

[Bolder]

Re: Moto-fraud: first rider caught

but you still have to have evidence, open an investigation etc.

I think if a story broke that a gendarme had detected a motor, it would grow serious legs.

I think the Gendarmes would be reluctant to go against ASO/TdF. It is a handy gig for a lot of them. It would take someone high up to make the call that might damage ASO and France's biggest tourism expo.

Exactly. i live in France and the TdF is hands down the biggest event of the year, sporting or otherwise. It's hard to overestimate its impact on towns along the route and indeed the national psyche in July. Besides the national police forces here have much bigger (terror-related) fish to fry right now than doping.

Over the years the TdF organization has vacillated between "We're going to smoke 'em all out and send the bad guys home" and "the sport is as clean as it's ever been" and truthfully it hasn't made a difference in the crowds, TV coverage, at least in France. I would assume that goes for the rest of Europe too. I fear that LA has damaged the US audience for a long time, no matter what might be happening in the actual event.

 

[deeno1975]

When taking one of the suspicious rides that may indicate a hidden motor, Froome Ventoux 2013 and having the heart rate and power output.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=usNpx2BOabE#t=28m12s

Assuming that there was a motor for a moment, what would happen to the power being displayed?

A. Would the power indicated on the SRM rise as the motor is used?
or
B. Is the SRM measuring the torque the rider is putting into the crank and therefore the power would stay the same but the bike just go faster???

If it is A then that may explain his HR rising only slightly for just a big effort when he does the egg beater.

If it is B then is the power he is putting into the cranks enough to generate the speed based on the incline.

Any thought???

 

[deeno1975]

Re: Re:

Assuming that there was a motor for a moment, what would happen to the power being displayed?
A. Would the power indicated on the SRM rise as the motor is used? or
B. Is the SRM measuring the torque the rider is putting into the crank and therefore the power would stay the same but the bike just go faster???

Case B, because the SRM brand uses strain gauge method inside the crank spider. And as far as I know, all other brands of crank-based power meters have the gauge either in the crank arm or in the spider.

Whereas a bottom-bracket hidden motor is driving the chainring --> chain --> rear wheel hub without applying force to the cranks.

To compare watts vs. speed at given points in the ride, versus a known inclination of the road at those points, would be one way to look for evidence of a motor being used.

Thanks, that answered that but raises a curious question, if Froome was using a motor then does the extra power he generates during his acceleration give him enough to increase the speed or would he need some form of assistance?? I'm assuming this can't be answered given the limitation on the data (% of the climb, wind, etc etc) but probably could if we had another riders power and speed data for the same part of the climb???

or maybe (as I don my tinfoil hat) the power data has been doctored to cover the motor kicking in or maybe he did it cleans :lol:

 

[kielbasa]

Re: Re:

Thanks, that answered that but raises a curious question, if Froome was using a motor then does the extra power he generates during his acceleration give him enough to increase the speed or would he need some form of assistance?? I'm assuming this can't be answered given the limitation on the data (% of the climb, wind, etc etc) but probably could if we had another riders power and speed data for the same part of the climb???
Or maybe (as I don my tinfoil hat) the power data has been doctored to cover the motor kicking in or maybe he did it cleans :lol:

Probably the effect would be seen as "phantom speed" at the same wattage. Hypothetical example: Froome is sustaining 450 watts during a difficult part of the mountain climb. Then, a hidden motor could offer a boost of "up to 150 extra watts" (that was reportedly the power of the motor found in the cyclocross moto-doping case).
The motor gets turned on full power, now Froome is climbing with the speed corresponding to 600 watts, but the power meter chart still reads 450 watts. You could compare it versus known data, for him or for other riders. And observe that the speed of the climb on that inclination is too fast to be accounted for by the wattage shown on the SRM

Also, an increase in speed without an increase in SRM readings could correspond to a certain amount of wind assistance. Should allegations arise that a rider's speed and power are disparate, what kind of wind assistance would be equivalent to ~150 extra Watts (taking slope into account)?

 

[ScienceIsCool]

Re: Re:

Thanks, that answered that but raises a curious question, if Froome was using a motor then does the extra power he generates during his acceleration give him enough to increase the speed or would he need some form of assistance?? I'm assuming this can't be answered given the limitation on the data (% of the climb, wind, etc etc) but probably could if we had another riders power and speed data for the same part of the climb???
Or maybe (as I don my tinfoil hat) the power data has been doctored to cover the motor kicking in or maybe he did it cleans :lol:

Probably the effect would be seen as "phantom speed" at the same wattage. Hypothetical example: Froome is sustaining 450 watts during a difficult part of the mountain climb. Then, a hidden motor could offer a boost of "up to 150 extra watts" (that was reportedly the power of the motor found in the cyclocross moto-doping case).
The motor gets turned on full power, now Froome is climbing with the speed corresponding to 600 watts, but the power meter chart still reads 450 watts. You could compare it versus known data, for him or for other riders. And observe that the speed of the climb on that inclination is too fast to be accounted for by the wattage shown on the SRM

<ahem> Remember when Froome won a stage by climbing at a higher VAM than everybody else, but a lower W/kg... something-something-shape-of-the-chainrings-something-something-apply-a-fudge-factor

John Swanson

 

[DanielSong39]

When dudes who allegedly had similar or higher power outputs than Froome on the same climb are being dropped by a sack of potatoes, you know that something is up.

Froome didn't seem to use the motor as much in this year's Vuelta, though - he saved it for the time trial and got a minute and a half. Probably needed it more on stage 15...

But why pick on Froome - Cancellara in the 2010 Paris Roubaix and Tour of Flanders was way more beautiful. Or perhaps Cavendish in the 2009 and 2010 Champ Elysees?

 

[hrotha]

That's a red herring. Froome's real W/kg figures were exactly in line with what you'd expect from his climbing time and definitely above his rivals'. You just needed to do the calculation correctly, using Froome's actual weight (or close to it) and adjusting for the oval ring properly instead of applying a ridiculously high percentage correction.

 

[glassmoon]

Re: Moto-fraud: first rider caught

Trust me, your average gendarme is no brighter than your average UCI inspector. Sporting fraud may be a crime but you still have to have evidence, open an investigation etc. You can't just test because Kathy LeMond or a mad hungarian asks you to. This story delivered nothing. I actually do think motors have been used in the pro peloton but not in any major races or tours.

finally someone who uses his brain

 

[Tienus]

Re: Re:

Assuming that there was a motor for a moment, what would happen to the power being displayed?
A. Would the power indicated on the SRM rise as the motor is used? or
B. Is the SRM measuring the torque the rider is putting into the crank and therefore the power would stay the same but the bike just go faster???

Case B, because the SRM brand uses strain gauge method inside the crank spider. And as far as I know, all other brands of crank-based power meters have the gauge either in the crank arm or in the spider.

Whereas a bottom-bracket hidden motor is driving the chainring --> chain --> rear wheel hub without applying force to the cranks.

To compare watts vs. speed at given points in the ride, versus a known inclination of the road at those points, would be one way to look for evidence of a motor being used.

SRM brand crank-based strain gauge:

Hidden motor mechanism:

I wonder if this is correct. I know nothing about power meters but when I look at that picture it looks like the motor and both cranks are driving the spindle which in turn drives the spider where the power is measured.

 

[Rouleur]

Re: Moto-fraud: first rider caught

Indeed, if a motor applies the power at the axle/spindle then an SRM or spider based powermeter will detect those additional watts. If a powermeter is used with the strain gauges in the crank arms then those additional watts from a motor would not be measured.

 

[deeno1975]

Re: Moto-fraud: first rider caught

Indeed, if a motor applies the power at the axle/spindle then an SRM or spider based powermeter will detect those additional watts. If a powermeter is used with the strain gauges in the crank arms then those additional watts from a motor would not be measured.

Would it be the case then that as the motor kicks in you would see a momentary drop in the SRM registered power until the legs speed up and match the new RPM. Unless of course the motor is a gradual increase of the RPM and not a sudden application of power.

 

[ScienceIsCool]

Re: Moto-fraud: first rider caught

Indeed, if a motor applies the power at the axle/spindle then an SRM or spider based powermeter will detect those additional watts. If a powermeter is used with the strain gauges in the crank arms then those additional watts from a motor would not be measured.

Would it be the case then that as the motor kicks in you would see a momentary drop in the SRM registered power until the legs speed up and match the new RPM. Unless of course the motor is a gradual increase of the RPM and not a sudden application of power.

On short time scales, power meters are very, very noisy with spikes and dips all over the place. Time averaging is necessary to get any kind of meaningful reading. So, no. I don't think you'd accurately capture when a motor turns on.

John Swanson

 

[deeno1975]

Re: Moto-fraud: first rider caught

Indeed, if a motor applies the power at the axle/spindle then an SRM or spider based powermeter will detect those additional watts. If a powermeter is used with the strain gauges in the crank arms then those additional watts from a motor would not be measured.

Would it be the case then that as the motor kicks in you would see a momentary drop in the SRM registered power until the legs speed up and match the new RPM. Unless of course the motor is a gradual increase of the RPM and not a sudden application of power.

On short time scales, power meters are very, very noisy with spikes and dips all over the place. Time averaging is necessary to get any kind of meaningful reading. So, no. I don't think you'd accurately capture when a motor turns on.

John Swanson

So basically outside of catching a motor on the bike or a whistle blower there is no way to deduce a motor was used to cheat! So be it then...

 

[Benotti69]

Steve Tilford met a guy on a motorised MTB

http://stevetilford.com/2016/12/16/electric-bike-encounter/

interesting