Teams & Riders Nairo Quintana discussion thread

[Ataraxus]

Re:

Grand Tours since 2013:
2, 1, DNF (crashed in leaders jersey), 2, 4, 3, 1, 2

Remarkable results. But so are Poulidor's

 

[DNP-Old]

Re: Re:

Grand Tours since 2013:
2, 1, DNF (crashed in leaders jersey), 2, 4, 3, 1, 2

Please don't disturb the facts. He didn't dnf with the leader jersey and even if he didn't crash in the time trial, he still would have lost 1.30 minutes to contador

> tells people not to ignore / disturb the facts
> comes up with hypotheticals and other made up nonsense

 

[Ataraxus]

The most pathetic part of Nairo was on the Foza climb when he asked Pinot and Nibali to roll on together with the sign of the finger and he himself used to stay in front only 5-10 seconds while Pinot and Nibali were doing half a minute pulls.
Justice served him right today.
If Pantani was alive he would have said " E vabbene cosi "

 

[Escarabajo]

Re: Re:

If he had pushed harder on Stelvio and used his teammates up front, he would probably have been the winner of this bike race.

This. That was his biggest mistake, he simply had to attack on Stelvio with 2 teammates up the road. He was just afraid because of Oropa stage, and that's where he could have won this Giro

I agree on the part of a loss opportunity. So were any of the mountain stages of the last week. Any gap in any of them would have made the difference.

Having said that, he didn't have it. He didn't have the legs. I am not sure why the insistence from people here in this forum that he didn't want to attack. I don't understand. If he had the strength he would have done it.

 

[Escarabajo]

Re:

Riders should just forget the Giro-Tour double. Quintana hasn't beaten Froome in July yet, never mind trying to win the Giro beforehand

That's true but he had other objectives with the double as well. We have to wait for July. I am not sure if it will work.

 

[Angliru]

Re: Re:

@EuroHoody
Quintana revealed that he woke up with slight fever on day of Piancavallo, said it was a missed chance to take even more time on Dumoulin

That's pretty poor form. Even if it's true - which it may well be - it's a it classless to make excuses like that after the race. It's the kind of thing that Contador does and I think is the sign of a bit of a sore loser.

We could all see he wasn't at his best, he doesn't need to justify it himself.

Stating the facts (just like Dumoulin did after the Stelvio stage, by the way) is poor form? That's worrying in this fake news era.

The world should stop making words more important than facts. Zooming out to the world at large, it triggers an ascent of right-wing extremism partly in reaction to what is perceived as political correctness: facts not stated or overstated. In the cycling cosmos it means Quintana can't say he wasn't feeling at his best but then gets blamed for not attacking all day long.

I agree completely. It seems many here would prefer that he announce his illness to the media that same morning to give it legitimacy. Apparently honesty in this day and age is no longer a virtue.

 

[Angliru]

Re: Re:

@EuroHoody
Quintana revealed that he woke up with slight fever on day of Piancavallo, said it was a missed chance to take even more time on Dumoulin

That's pretty poor form. Even if it's true - which it may well be - it's a it classless to make excuses like that after the race. It's the kind of thing that Contador does and I think is the sign of a bit of a sore loser.

We could all see he wasn't at his best, he doesn't need to justify it himself.

Stating the facts (just like Dumoulin did after the Stelvio stage, by the way) is poor form? That's worrying in this fake news era.

The world should stop making words more important than facts. Zooming out to the world at large, it triggers an ascent of right-wing extremism partly in reaction to what is perceived as political correctness: facts not stated or overstated. In the cycling cosmos it means Quintana can't say he wasn't feeling at his best but then gets blamed for not attacking all day long.

Your post is all over the place - and you've missed the point. All I'm saying is the time and place to make excuses (valid or not) for not winning are not immediately after the finish. Because it's taking the gloss of the winner - implying that you were stronger and should be the real winner if it wasn't for misfortune. It's just a bit classless. Say it a few weeks later if you really have to. Or, better yet, just stay quiet and swallow your pride a bit.

Quintana gave Dumoulin his just due in his statements. The admission that he was feverish is nothing more than that. It takes nothing from Dumoulin's performance so I have no idea why this is being spun as Quintana showing disrespect. Sometimes the facts are just that.

 

[Escarabajo]

Not everything is Quintana or Movistar's fault. Tom Domoulin had a great performance in the mountains. He made it happened with his preparation. Neither Quintana nor Movistar were expecting that.

 

[carton]

Re: Re:

Having said that, he didn't have it. He didn't have the legs. I am not sure why the insistence from people here in this forum that he didn't want to attack. I don't understand. If he had the strength he would have done it.

Exciting lies are infinitely more interesting than boring truths. If there's one stage where Nairo lost the race, it was Oropa. Had he just sat on wheels and managed to eek out 4 seconds at the end he should've taken another Grand Tour. But he couldn't help himself. A little too aggressive, again. But otherwise his strategy was pretty much spot on.

But yeah, he lost 4'17" over 70 pretty flat kilometers against the clock against Dumoulin. Again, he needs a blunder from his rivals or a perfect race to win on that parcours. He fell a little short. This was a pretty good ride by him and by Movistar. Dumoulin and friends just rode a slightly better race. Chapeau.

 

[Zinoviev Letter]

People are too black and white about whether or not a rider is "able" to attack. Usually everyone who isn't the last man in the group in the process of losing the wheel could choose to attack. It's just that they calculate - usually correctly - that based on how they feel and the race situation that it wouldn't be a very good idea and that the odds favour a time loss rather than a time gain. He wasn't able just sounds better than he thought he would lose more time than he'd gain. After Oropa went wrong (and remember he did go all out on Blockhaus and Oropa), Quintana was strongly disposed to treat attacks as a very risky business. He still tried quite a number of them, but the moment it looked like they might not work he knocked it off. From a fan point of view that's frustrating, but while we tend to assume that such caution must necessarily be too cautious, we don't actually have any reason to think Nairo judged himself wrongly.

On another note, the idea that coming second in a GT with a very good field means that the rider who won the previous GT is now incapable of winning a GT is insane. I do think that his chances of winning a Tour have slightly narrowed with the emergence of a TT focused alternative rival to Froome, but a Tour was always likely to take favourable circumstances and is still very much possible.

 

[portugal11]

Re: Re:

Grand Tours since 2013:
2, 1, DNF (crashed in leaders jersey), 2, 4, 3, 1, 2

Please don't disturb the facts. He didn't dnf with the leader jersey and even if he didn't crash in the time trial, he still would have lost 1.30 minutes to contador

> tells people not to ignore / disturb the facts
> comes up with hypotheticals and other made up nonsense

He lost more than 2 minutes in that time trial :lol:
I can assume he would have lost something around 1.30 minutes.
And yes, he didn't dnf in the time trial.

 

[Valv.Piti]

At no point did I say he DNF in the time trial, only that he crashed in the leaders jersey, but it was obvious that the crash eventually led to his DNF the day afterwards. You are really just nitpicking here for no particular reason outside of being annoying.

What we can say is it shows an incredible stability in GTs, same goes for Nibali and Froome and to some extent Contador (you can argue Valv is a lot more consistent).

 

[Mr.White]

Re: Re:

If he had pushed harder on Stelvio and used his teammates up front, he would probably have been the winner of this bike race.

This. That was his biggest mistake, he simply had to attack on Stelvio with 2 teammates up the road. He was just afraid because of Oropa stage, and that's where he could have won this Giro

I agree on the part of a loss opportunity. So were any of the mountain stages of the last week. Any gap in any of them would have made the difference.

Having said that, he didn't have it. He didn't have the legs. I am not sure why the insistence from people here in this forum that he didn't want to attack. I don't understand. If he had the strength he would have done it.

Well he had a decent legs on that stage, he followed Nibali comfortably to the top of Umbrailpass. I still think he missed his opportunity there, he should've tried. A warrior like Nibali or Contador would try even with the bad legs. That opportunity was too good to be missed imo.

 

[DNP-Old]

Re: Re:

Grand Tours since 2013:
2, 1, DNF (crashed in leaders jersey), 2, 4, 3, 1, 2

Please don't disturb the facts. He didn't dnf with the leader jersey and even if he didn't crash in the time trial, he still would have lost 1.30 minutes to contador

> tells people not to ignore / disturb the facts
> comes up with hypotheticals and other made up nonsense

He lost more than 2 minutes in that time trial :lol:
I can assume he would have lost something around 1.30 minutes.
And yes, he didn't dnf in the time trial.

You stand up for facts and then proceed to woulda, coulda, shoulda's. That's not it works bro. If it didn't happen, it's not a fact. Quintana could have won that timetrial if not for his crash, who knows right?

 

[Escarabajo]

Re:

Interesting that Quintana lose a lot more time on hilly parcours to Dumoulin compared to the pan-flat ones.

Very good time trial, but had too little time to give obviously, but still a 2nd overall and a win on Blockhaus. Thats not too bad.

Well, the last time trials of the GT's are usually different. It is more about recovery.

 

[Escarabajo]

For a 58 kilogram rider, his palmares is impressive.

He gets a lot of criticism for being uni-dimensional and I get it. If he fails in the discipline where he excels then hell breaks loose.

But I can summarize:
- He is not as bad in a TT for a 58 kg rider
- He is a decent descender.
- When in form he is the best climber.
- He position himself very well in all stage in general.

Having said that he usually needs a perfect race and perfect strategy because of his size weaknesses. That's why we are always discussing would have, could have, should have after every race that he doesn't win. On top of that nobody expected Dumoulin to be this strong.


My 2 cents...

 

[bob.a.feet]

Quintana on his day is a world-class climber, but due to his time-trialing he will never quite dominate a race like Froome or Contador. Quintana has to gain lots of time in the mountains to survive the TT, but it's nearly impossible when Froome matches him in the mountains. Even in 2015 when there was very little TT kms he still couldn't quite pull it off.

Another problem is his poor form in recent GTs such as the Tour and Giro. Quintana is a great climber (possibly the best), but unless he can show up to the Tour in peak form and with an ideal route it seems unlikely at the moment.

 

[Zinoviev Letter]

Re:

For a 58 kilogram rider, his palmares is impressive.

He gets a lot of criticism for being uni-dimensional and I get it. If he fails in the discipline where he excels then hell breaks loose.

But I can summarize:
- He is not as bad in a TT for a 58 kg rider
- He is a decent descender.
- When in form he is the best climber.
- He position himself very well in all stage in general.

Having said that he usually needs a perfect race and perfect strategy because of his size weaknesses. That's why we are always discussing would have, could have, should have after every race that he doesn't win. On top of that nobody expected Dumoulin to be this strong.


My 2 cents...

I agree with all of that pretty much, except that I'm not at all sure that good day versus good day he is the very best climber. He is either the best or very close though so it doesn't effect the logic of your post.

Not enough people really pay attention to the rarity of GT wins by out and out flying midget climbers when they assess Quintana. Although he is currently a big novelty, over the long term the Dumoulin types have usually been more likely to actually win and the Quintana types have to be outlandishly good to get a single GT. Quintana is a huge over achiever compared to his tiny climber peers and looks likely to continue to be one for years to come.

 

[portugal11]

I already said this one time, I really beleive colombians tend to peak very early in their careers. Since 2013, I can't see real development on him (physical ability). Of course he is more experient, he is smarter but not really stronger.

 

[Zinoviev Letter]

Why would Colombians peak very young? People say that about for instance Danes, but that's about being from countries with a very developed cycling infrastructure where talents are put in a professionalised development system at a reliably young age. It has nothing to do with any inherent predisposition, just to do with getting the easy training related gains that all pros get younger.

 

[Jelantik]

Re:

Not everything is Quintana or Movistar's fault. Tom Domoulin had a great performance in the mountains. He made it happened with his preparation. Neither Quintana nor Movistar were expecting that.

Agreed. Same with Contador. He wasn't expected to face a very strong Aru/Landa and the whole army of Astana which derailed his energy saving for the Tour. Time will tell, if Quintana shows up with better form and be the main challenger for Froome as he and Movistar team are expecting, or he shows a residue Giro fatique as the week progress.

 

[Matteo.]

I read his interview. Says he is still convinced that double is possible. I agree, as I was about alberto attempt but then the timings were wrong. In the end, he and froome have already demonstrated last year that double is possibile. Anyway i still believe that the final word is in july. I'm curious

 

[Rollthedice]

Re:

I read his interview. Says he is still convinced that double is possible. I agree, as I was about alberto attempt but then the timings were wrong. In the end, he and froome have already demonstrated last year that double is possibile. Anyway i still believe that the final word is in july. I'm curious

How is the double possible since he lost the Giro?

 

[Matteo.]

Re: Re:

I read his interview. Says he is still convinced that double is possible. I agree, as I was about alberto attempt but then the timings were wrong. In the end, he and froome have already demonstrated last year that double is possibile. Anyway i still believe that the final word is in july. I'm curious

How is the double possible since he lost the Giro?

Achieve two podium at this high level are enough to say that the attempt is possible

 

[deValtos]

Both Froome and Quintana proved last year that you can ride two back to back GT's at a high level. Like Dave B said in his interview yesterday it is possible but you just have to get absolutely everything right.