Official Lance Armstrong Thread **READ POST #1 BEFORE POSTING**

[Deagol]

The attempts to derail the thread are now painfully obvious. May I suggest the ignore list?

Back on topic:

....He despondently retired to Texas and got fat on Mexican food and beer until being later talked out of retirement by Roll, Bruyneel and Carmichael.

Interesting, this explains a bit why Bob Roll is on the Lance-selling gravy train...

Being part of the LA phenomenon so early on would explain his and others great emotional investment in the whole thing.

 

[sniper]

As I was saying...

+1

the blinders this guy is wearing are robust. only very few rays of light coming through.

 

[pmcg76]

From my recollection of "It's Not About the Bike" there was a massive contradiction presented by LA and his biographer of creating a myth and debunking the same myth.

The myth created in that book by LA was that his post cancer competitive success was due to cancer hardening him and increasing his resolve.

But the book details that he dismally failed his comeback during the Spring classics and was picked up by the bus sweeping up the abandoned riders after being dropped looking like a rain soaked ex cancer victim.

He despondently retired to Texas and got fat on Mexican food and beer until being later talked out of retirement by Roll, Bruyneel and Carmichael.

This is the point where I believe they weighed up everything and decided to take the risks of doping for the Tour against the benefits of the whole cancer angle.

I simply cannot believe they sat around talking about aiming for the Tour without actually trying to envisage what would happen if Lance actually won.

Do people really believe they never discussed all the possibilities like what does the Tour need? a new hero!! Hey, imagine a cancer survivor winning the Tour, the Tour of redemption after Festina, that would be totally amazing and the media would be falling over themselves.

I believe they cynically chose at that point to use cancer as the shield to protect Lance and that is why I have no respect for Lance and his achivements.

 

[Poursuivant]

This is the point where I believe they weighed up everything and decided to take the risks of doping for the Tour against the benefits of the whole cancer angle.

I simply cannot believe they sat around talking about aiming for the Tour without actually trying to envisage what would happen if Lance actually won.

Do people really believe they never discussed all the possibilities like what does the Tour need? a new hero!! Hey, imagine a cancer survivor winning the Tour, the Tour of redemption after Festina, that would be totally amazing and the media would be falling over themselves.

I believe they cynically chose at that point to use cancer as the shield to protect Lance and that is why I have no respect for Lance and his achivements.

The fact that he has said that he wouldn't dope because of the cancer is disgusting, and why I just can't see how he can ever come clean. He will deny, deny, deny. As he told Landis, 'you need to lie better.' He's perfected the art.

 

[veganrob]

So you would applaude every rider confessing? Sure, confessing that you cheated > lying about it. But applauding a person for cheating? Just seems odd..

Doping apologists don't care about all the honest riders that didn't get the chance to ride the TdF because of dopers like Frankie Andreu

Wow. What a dipsh!t.

 

[Deagol]

Wow. What a dipsh!t.

............

I think we can all agree on that.

 

[mewmewmew13]

some commentators/editorials have brought up the question of whether armstrong's cheating devalues the supposed "good work" he has done for cancer research. in other words, does the overall "good" ends justify the "means" -- particularly if you take the (faulty) view that all pros are cheating, so what does it matter.

while i personally believe that this is simply wrong, i can see how others might see it as at least morally debatable.

however, what has been absent -- so far -- in the press, is the accounts of the irreparable harm armstrong has inflicted on many individuals to keep his dirty little secret and protect the myth.

this, in my mind, is what is utterly indefensible. no amount of supposed "good works" justifies actively destroying innocent people's lives, even if the relative numbers are small in comparison.

i am still waiting for editorials that point this out...

Good post and well said. This has been way underplayed and not mentioned much, well, outside of our clinic.

As far as how much 'good he has done' , his using whatever he has actually done and played on his 'charity' and 'humanitarian' work to shield himself from accusations. Just watching him attack Kimmage in that press conference, you can immediately see him deflect from the criticism of himself and spring up the shield of his righteous acts.

That really pis*es me off and I can't wait for him to have all his meanness and cruel deeds to others trumpeted in public.

 

[cat6cx]

The complexity of the situation also facilitates such analysis. Doping is so rampant, the omerta so strong, and the UCI so corrupt, that as awful as doping is, one is absolved of at least some of that sin by confession because it helps solve the overall, massive problem.

Very well stated.

I have a lot respect (queue applause ) for Frankie for the way he quit on his own, told the truth about it and never tried to damage anyone covering it up.

I have respect for Floyd and Tyler, for while they lied and hid it for a while, they have come clean. That is hard to do. It will ultimately help the sport

Moving down on my applause scale of cheaters, I have Zabel and Riis, who won’t deny it, but aren’t open to discussing it or honestly helping to reduce it.

Further down are the continuous cheats who deny they have cheated or that cheating is rampant.

It is not a black and white judgment. That’s ok with me, I can process the complexities of the human condition somewhat.

‘Anti-Doping’ can’t see the context and that’s ok too.

There are almost zero universal truths. Truth almost always exists within a context.

 

[mewmewmew13]

Very well stated.

I have a lot respect (queue applause ) for Frankie for the way he quit on his own, told the truth about it and never tried to damage anyone covering it up.

I have respect for Floyd and Tyler, for while they lied and hid it for a while, they have come clean. That is hard to do. It will ultimately help the sport

Moving down on my applause scale of cheaters, I have Zabel and Riis, who won’t deny it, but aren’t open to discussing it or honestly helping to reduce it.

Further down are the continuous cheats who deny they have cheated or that cheating is rampant.

It is not a black and white judgment. That’s ok with me, I can process the complexities of the human condition somewhat.

‘Anti-Doping’ can’t see the context and that’s ok too.

There are almost zero universal truths. Truth almost always exists within a context.

Correct me if I'm wrong, as there is so much through the years with regard to doping and admissions, but don't I remember E Zabel's tearful confession? I've always liked him a lot and the way he rode, but I vividly remember the press talking about his 'emotional' confession w/r to doping.

At least he has moved on and has contributed to passing down his wealth of sprinting knowledge to younger riders....e.g. Farrar and others..

 

[Hugh Januss]

Correct me if I'm wrong, as there is so much through the years with regard to doping and admissions, but don't I remember E Zabel's tearful confession? I've always liked him a lot and the way he rode, but I vividly remember the press talking about his 'emotional' confession w/r to doping.

At least he has moved on and has contributed to passing down his wealth of sprinting knowledge to younger riders....e.g. Farrar and others..

Yeah, I've always liked him too, but I've also always considered his "tearful confession" to be a line of BS on a par with Basso's "Thinking about doping".
IIRC he admitted to taking EPO only during one Tour while he had a whole string of Tours (during the height of the EPO era) where he was consistently the only sprinter left in the lead group on mountain stages.
Not sure how comfortable I am with having him pass on his "knowledge" to younger riders.

 

[BullsFan22]

I don't know if this is in line with the thread, but how long do you guys think this issue will take to resolve? Will it be months, years...never? I don't really want to make a poll, just getting in the opinions here (if you don't mind) and keeping this thread going for however long it goes!

 

[mewmewmew13]

Yeah, I've always liked him too, but I've also always considered his "tearful confession" to be a line of BS on a par with Basso's "Thinking about doping".
IIRC he admitted to taking EPO only during one Tour while he had a whole string of Tours (during the height of the EPO era) where he was consistently the only sprinter left in the lead group on mountain stages.
Not sure how comfortable I am with having him pass on his "knowledge" to younger riders.

hahaha

Lance...(this is the Lance thread) now I'm back on track

 

[MD FACG FACP]

Whooooosh!!!!!

That's the sound of my point soaring over your head, sunshine!

My point was that the attitude of many posters here amounts to "Holier than thou" yet these very posters are likely just as morally compromised/challenged themselves.

FA did dope, for whatever reason be it peer pressure or some other factor. That he stopped and then, as another poster pointed out, confessed without provocation is to be applauded. It took a lot of courage to do that rather than keeping quiet and hoping no one noticed your wrongdoing.

Conversely, LA it seems is determined to deny to his last breath as well as continuing to intimidate potential witnesses & adversaries.


I have no time or pity for those that continue to play the public for fools but for the guy who puts his hands up and says "I broke the rules, I was wrong, I am sorry" I have plenty of time.

sigh...isn't "mum" calling you for dinner or something.

 

[Velodude]

I don't know if this is in line with the thread, but how long do you guys think this issue will take to resolve? Will it be months, years...never? I don't really want to make a poll, just getting in the opinions here (if you don't mind) and keeping this thread going for however long it goes!

A guideline

The Federal Grand Jury term is 18 months and can be extended a further 6 months if it is a Regular Grand Jury.

At last count Armstrong has instructed 7 lawyers to be on his team. Expect them to delay and frustrate the process after the GJ indictments for a trial by all possible motions to the Court they can devise.

I will expect that when the Court has heard all evidence and retired to consider a decision Contador will be competing for his eighth straight TdF victory!

Unless the prosecution is amenable to a deal with LA. In which case the wise decision for LA would be to take that deal to preserve what assets he has left and avoid the prison showers.

 

[Anonymous]

A guideline

The Federal Grand Jury term is 18 months and can be extended a further 6 months if it is a Regular Grand Jury.

At last count Armstrong has instructed 7 lawyers to be on his team. Expect them to delay and frustrate the process after the GJ indictments for a trial by all possible motions to the Court they can devise.

I will expect that when the Court has heard all evidence and retired to consider a decision Contador will be competing for his eighth straight TdF victory!

Unless the prosecution is amenable to a deal with LA. In which case the wise decision for LA would be to take that deal to preserve what assets he has left and avoid the prison showers.

Even a man as wealthy as is Armstrong can be bled dry by a flock of lawyers the size of his "team." As much as they sound like his biggest supporters (and they are), they charge for ever single billable second. Tex thinks he is safe having made so much money off of his prostitution of cancer, but if he fights too hard, he will find that his bank accounts are not bottomless. Not to mention the money he will have to pay once he finds a new girlfriend.

 

[mewmewmew13]

Even a man as wealthy as is Armstrong can be bled dry by a flock of lawyers the size of his "team." As much as they sound like his biggest supporters (and they are), they charge for ever single billable second. Tex thinks he is safe having made so much money off of his prostitution of cancer, but if he fights too hard, he will find that his bank accounts are not bottomless. Not to mention the money he will have to pay once he finds a new girlfriend.

Just a thought...do innocent people usually hire this many lawyers? It just seems to announce how deep his pile is.

 

[Velodude]

Just a thought...do innocent people usually hire this many lawyers? It just seems to announce how deep his pile is.

No, particularly not through the GJ process. He has hired multiple spin doctors masquerading as lawyers.

 

[ultimobici]

sigh...isn't "mum" calling you for dinner or something.

WTF?

You seemed to have a problem comprehending a simple analogy.

 

[sartain]

A guideline

The Federal Grand Jury term is 18 months and can be extended a further 6 months if it is a Regular Grand Jury.

At last count Armstrong has instructed 7 lawyers to be on his team. Expect them to delay and frustrate the process after the GJ indictments for a trial by all possible motions to the Court they can devise.

I will expect that when the Court has heard all evidence and retired to consider a decision Contador will be competing for his eighth straight TdF victory!

Unless the prosecution is amenable to a deal with LA. In which case the wise decision for LA would be to take that deal to preserve what assets he has left and avoid the prison showers.

A few points, IMO:

1. LA will never let AC make a run at his title; this of course is based on the premise that he is a.) Not serving time and b.) Still has money left to bribe the UCI at the time;

2. The longer this drags on, the more likely event 1(b) will happen.

 

[python]

No, particularly not through the GJ process. He has hired multiple spin doctors masquerading as lawyers.

whatever their disguise, according to boulder report texas currently employs six (6) legal advisers/laywers. some are full time some are part time. his legal bill can be confidently approximated at hundreds of thousands dollars a month. it will quadruple during the actual criminal hearing if it ever to see the day.

still, i don't think tff's assessment of his financial liabilities will kick in until his sponsors start quitting...the criminal collects millions a month for doing nothing...

 

[sartain]

This is the point where I believe they weighed up everything and decided to take the risks of doping for the Tour against the benefits of the whole cancer angle.

I simply cannot believe they sat around talking about aiming for the Tour without actually trying to envisage what would happen if Lance actually won.

Do people really believe they never discussed all the possibilities like what does the Tour need? a new hero!! Hey, imagine a cancer survivor winning the Tour, the Tour of redemption after Festina, that would be totally amazing and the media would be falling over themselves.

I believe they cynically chose at that point to use cancer as the shield to protect Lance and that is why I have no respect for Lance and his achivements.

This is VERY good question you raise and one that I have thought about a lot myself, and never got around to posting it. Just where and when was all of this laid out, and who were all of the players involved in developing this massive sporting and marketing fraud? I have to think there were better minds involved in this then the three mentioned here; this has to go much deeper.

Did LAF.org actually start out this way, or was it really a noble cause in the early days, and then when they (CS&E and a few others) saw just how much they could hide behind the cancer shield, and how much they could milk it for, well, then it took on an entirely different direction. On top of this you then start stacking the deck (i.e., LAF.org BODs, USAC BODs, etc.) with a bunch of your high-profile, very rich and influential friends; toss is a few “donations” and business dealings with members of the UCI, IOC, etc. and you have the situation we have now.

LA, TW and Nike took Wall Street to the world of Pro Cycling in a way that had never been done before; too many people stood to make a lot of money on this and no one would dare talk ill of LAF.org, because everyone knows someone with cancer.

 

[Race Radio]

A guideline

The Federal Grand Jury term is 18 months and can be extended a further 6 months if it is a Regular Grand Jury.

At last count Armstrong has instructed 7 lawyers to be on his team. Expect them to delay and frustrate the process after the GJ indictments for a trial by all possible motions to the Court they can devise.

I will expect that when the Court has heard all evidence and retired to consider a decision Contador will be competing for his eighth straight TdF victory!

Unless the prosecution is amenable to a deal with LA. In which case the wise decision for LA would be to take that deal to preserve what assets he has left and avoid the prison showers.

Keker, Peters, Fabiani, Herman, Luskin & Daily. That is a lot of money ($400,000 per month) for an investigation that is going nowhere.

Some of these guy's job is to impede. Lobby the justice department to drop the case etc. So far they have had little luck. Once the charges are filed they will spend considerable effort trying to take apart the case.

In the end he will spend $10-15 million on the case. Will have to pay SCA $15 million. Times of london, $1 million. The qui Tam case? Maybe another $10 million.

The smartest thing to do is to start working on a plea deal. It will save him Millions

 

[WorldsGreatest]

I don't follow this much but can anyone tell me when, if ever, Lance will be in front of the Grand Jury. Estimates?

 

[Dr. Maserati]

This is VERY good question you raise and one that I have thought about a lot myself, and never got around to posting it. Just where and when was all of this laid out, and who were all of the players involved in developing this massive sporting and marketing fraud? I have to think there were better minds involved in this then the three mentioned here; this has to go much deeper.

Did LAF.org actually start out this way, or was it really a noble cause in the early days, and then when they (CS&E and a few others) saw just how much they could hide behind the cancer shield, and how much they could milk it for, well, then it took on an entirely different direction. On top of this you then start stacking the deck (i.e., LAF.org BODs, USAC BODs, etc.) with a bunch of your high-profile, very rich and influential friends; toss is a few “donations” and business dealings with members of the UCI, IOC, etc. and you have the situation we have now.

LA, TW and Nike took Wall Street to the world of Pro Cycling in a way that had never been done before; too many people stood to make a lot of money on this and no one would dare talk ill of LAF.org, because everyone knows someone with cancer.

This quote from Bill Stapleton of CSE to Texas Monthly in 2001 may interest you:

"In the beginning we had this brand of brash Texan, interesting European sport, a phenomenon. Then you layered in cancer survivor, which broadened and deepened the brand. But even in 1998 there was very little corporate interest in Lance. And then he won the Tour de France in 1999 and the brand was complete. You layered in family man, hero, comeback of the century, all these things. And then everybody wanted him."

 

[Damiano Machiavelli]

This quote from Bill Stapleton of CSE to Texas Monthly in 2001 may interest you:

That quote shows what a fraud it was from the beginning. Lance as a family man? He was chasing after everything with two legs. It must have been a short leap to go from portraying Lance as a family man to portraying him as a clean cyclist. If you are building an image based on one lie then why not expand upon it with more lies?