Official Lance Armstrong Thread **READ POST #1 BEFORE POSTING**

[Anonymous]

This thread is like a troll roach motel.

 

[mewmewmew13]

This thread is like a troll roach motel.

They check in but they don't check out?

 

[Damiano Machiavelli]

Stupid people and those particularly vulnerable, like the elderly, fall for scams all the time. Doesn't make it any less of a scam.

At some point people need to take responsibility for themselves by thinking critically before opening their wallets. Professional cyclists asking for money to prove their innocence of doping charges is one of those points. If people are over protected then they never learn. Misfortune due to stupidity should serve as an example to others.

 

[Anonymous]

I gotta' tell ya', if I'd known Landis was gonna do what he did last May, and then go gonzo for the next year, I would have given to the FFF back then.

 

[breakaway]

Of course there is a factual dispute. Armstrong isn't admitting to doing anything improper. That's what juries are for--resolving issues of fact.

I'm not certain what you are basing your assertions on, but I can tell you that it will be more probable that the witness intimidation offense will be added to the indictment that is expected. It will likely be one of the underlying felonies of a RICO count. The letter apparently sent to Armstrong's counsel will have made clear that tampering is a serious felony.

The jury will decide whether the government has proved all the elements of the alleged crime as they do with all criminal charges. If tampering is added to an indictment, rest assured that the government will be of the position that it can prove the crime alleged beyond a reasonable doubt.

What facts do you have to support the assertion that this was a media set up? Assuming that it was, please explain how/why you feel that gives rise to a defense for Armstrong. Reminder--it isn't entrapment because the government was not involved in the set up, if in fact there was one.

Your conclusion about being indicted by now if there were a strong case tells me one very definite thing. You have very little knowledge of how the criminal justice system actually works.

Spot on. I meant to qualify but forgot to add in my previous post that the feds are surely investigating the tampering angle and will tack that on as a separate charge if and when the indictment comes down. Without a doubt, if they see enough for a conviction, they will charge him, and will do it all at the same time and as you said will simply address the matter now forcefully with his attorneys in an effort to ensure it doesn't happen again. The scenario plays out this way all the time.

I guess my post would have been more accurate if I would have only quoted the "C" to his post as that is what I was referencing. People tend to spout off that things are clear and slam dunks under the law as the written law reads with only the little bit of information that we know, without regard for the necessary element of intent, and without regard for the fact that it is a jury that decides those factual issues. That's where I was coming from.

One thing is certain though. The feds take their time and do everything in their power to tie up any and all loose ends before they ever formally charge a person with a crime. They take literally years even. And just as you said, they only charge them once they feel they have enough for a conviction. Hence, their high conviction rate.

 

[Anonymous]

From "It's not about the bike" p. 113

I wished hard, but I didn't pray. I had developed a certain distrust of organized religion growing up, but I felt I had the capacity to be a spiritual person, and to hold some fervent beliefs. Quite simply, I believed I had a responsiblity to be a good person, and that meant fair, honest, hardworking, and honorable. If I did that, if I was good to my family, true to my friends, if I gave back to my community or to some cause, if I wasn't a liar, a cheat, or a thief, then I believed that should be enough. At the end of the day, if there was indeed some Body or presence standing there to judge me, I hoped I would be judged on whether I had lived a true life,

Tex, you are going to get your wish, his name is Jeff Novitzky, and the fact that you failed at all of those things you listed is going to leave a mark. When I read sh!t like that, I cannot understand why anyone can stand behind that guy.

 

[JMBeaushrimp]

From "It's not about the bike" p. 113



Tex, you are going to get your wish, his name is Jeff Novitzky, and the fact that you failed at all of those things you listed is going to leave a mark. When I read sh!t like that, I cannot understand why anyone can stand behind that guy.

Never read the book. I was too afraid it would be full of that sort of banal rhetoric.

Is that the banality of evil, or the evil of banality?

 

[D-Queued]

From "It's not about the bike" p. 113



Tex, you are going to get your wish, his name is Jeff Novitzky, and the fact that you failed at all of those things you listed is going to leave a mark. When I read sh!t like that, I cannot understand why anyone can stand behind that guy.

He didn't write that. Sally wrote that.

She did the classic Grade 12 Annual thing, and cleaned up and put a rosey spin on a bunch of High School immaturity.

Dave.

 

[Granville57]

Technically, Levi's still working for Lance. He's thus being tolerated as a race winner, for now. Leaving Lance's team voluntarily is not allowed, especially not improving your results.

I remember reading how Levi was quite proud of the fact that he was the only rider to leave the Johan/Lance machine and then later return on good terms. I'll see if I can dig up a quote.

In the meantime, sit back and enjoy Capt Charisma himself back in 2007 (with a special appearance by his under-study, Ensign Engaging)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AXuA5h2pgmU

Slowly...losing...the will...

 

[Oldman]

I remember reading how Levi was quite proud of the fact that he was the only rider to leave the Johan/Lance machine and then later return on good terms. I'll see if I can dig up a quote.

In the meantime, sit back and enjoy Capt Charisma himself back in 2007 (with a special appearance by his under-study, Ensign Engaging)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AXuA5h2pgmU

Slowly...losing...the will...

He seemed slightly more animated than usual. Probably downed one of those bottles on the pillow...you figure where it went.

 

[BotanyBay]

Personally, I think Lance was just getting tired of waiting. This investigation is like a 200 foot tall CA Redwood tree that's been cut, but no one has yet given it a good shove and yelled "Timber!"

I think the Cache Cache incident was Lance's subconcious way of trying to exert some kind of "control" over the situation. Lance HATES not being the one in control, and if the only thing he has the power to do is force their hand and prod them into actually doing the indictment, he'll try to do that. And I think that's what he tried to do.

 

[mewmewmew13]

Personally, I think Lance was just getting tired of waiting. This investigation is like a 200 foot tall CA Redwood tree that's been cut, but no one has yet given it a good shove and yelled "Timber!"

I think the Cache Cache incident was Lance's subconcious way of trying to exert some kind of "control" over the situation. Lance HATES not being the one in control, and if the only thing he has the power to do is force their hand and prod them into actually doing the indictment, he'll try to do that. And I think that's what he tried to do.

Good point BB. I am also betting that he is so arrogant that he can't believe they really have anything on him, so may be calling their bluff and becoming emboldened.

 

[TubularBills]

Personally, I think Lance was just getting tired of waiting. This investigation is like a 200 foot tall CA Redwood tree that's been cut, but no one has yet given it a good shove and yelled "Timber!"

I think the Cache Cache incident was Lance's subconcious way of trying to exert some kind of "control" over the situation. Lance HATES not being the one in control, and if the only thing he has the power to do is force their hand and prod them into actually doing the indictment, he'll try to do that. And I think that's what he tried to do.

+1

Accelerating Infamy!

(But he wouldn't understand that, He's in a hurry to 'win'. Ouch.)

 

[breakaway]

Personally, I think Lance was just getting tired of waiting. This investigation is like a 200 foot tall CA Redwood tree that's been cut, but no one has yet given it a good shove and yelled "Timber!"

I think the Cache Cache incident was Lance's subconcious way of trying to exert some kind of "control" over the situation. Lance HATES not being the one in control, and if the only thing he has the power to do is force their hand and prod them into actually doing the indictment, he'll try to do that. And I think that's what he tried to do.

Yeah, impatience, fear and feeling out of control could have a lot to do with his behavior, especially for a control freak. But, going to mew's point, that's actually a very reason cops let suspects wander around free. Often times the paranoia, fear and feeling of the walls closing in around them will cause them to start tripping up and hanging themselves with their own noose. Additionally, the more time that goes by, the more the suspect is likely to think they're off the hook and so they will get more lax, get looser lips, etc. This very fact is probably part of the reason federal investigations take so long, and also why they tend to collect enough evidence along the way before indicting to ensure a high conviction rate in their cases.

 

[Berzin]

I don't understand the reasoning behind Armstrong hiring a bunch of high-priced lawyers when no charges have been handed down yet.

I can't fathom what he's paying them for if they aren't working on the case.

Is winning the public internet battle really worth paying all that money for?

If this is really affecting Armstrong negatively on a personal level, it's only because he is spending too much time on the internet reading crap revolving around innuendo and hearsay.

It's not like he's taking a financial hit. His sponsors still support him, his fanboys are rabidly behind him and he's still raising money for that bs charity of his.

I also don't understand why anyone in his camp pays trolls to infect sites like this, if indeed this is happening. I firmly believe it is, but I also believe these people are so mentally off-balance that it would not be difficult to recruit people to do this for free.

 

[Oldman]

I don't understand the reasoning behind Armstrong hiring a bunch of high-priced lawyers when no charges have been handed down yet.

I can't fathom what he's paying them for if they aren't working on the case.

Is winning the public internet battle really worth paying all that money for?

If this is really affecting Armstrong negatively on a personal level, it's only because he is spending too much time on the internet reading crap revolving around innuendo and hearsay.

It's not like he's taking a financial hit. His sponsors still support him, his fanboys are rabidly behind him and he's still raising money for that bs charity of his.

I also don't understand why anyone in his camp pays trolls to infect sites like this, if indeed this is happening. I firmly believe it is, but I also believe these people are so mentally off-balance that it would not be difficult to recruit people to do this for free.

We might wrongly assume Armstrong is the sole contributor to the legal fund. He has taken counsel from Weisel all along and he probably only trusts those who have assured the checks cleared into his account. We also don't know who he really is afraid of. When you look at the traffic of illegal drugs, currency and intellectual property it comes from everywhere but some jurisdictions seem to protect it like a franchise and don't even pretend to prosecute it. Think Eastern Europe and Asia were it is big business and while Lance may not have made alot of dough out of Astana and their contacts he knows he can't simply "appeal and negotiate" a sentence if he's forced to give up knowledge of related activity. Justice in that part of the world tends to be black and white and sentences handed out quickly. While we're debating minor issues for the GJ he's sweating whose bullseye is on his head aside from Novitsky.
Again; it doesn't matter what we think, debate and believe; only what Lance in his self-created world believes.

 

[knewcleardaze]

I am speculating LA has the high priced lawyers looking for a way to make this go away quietly. I don't see a "perp walk".
I've posted my view on this in another thread.
Any owed taxes/monies due, fines and penalties and interest will be paid.
This is going to be a sealed plea agreement, provided Feds have the goods.
There will be others to make us aware of cancer.
There will be others to run charity organizations.

 

[JMBeaushrimp]

We might wrongly assume Armstrong is the sole contributor to the legal fund. He has taken counsel from Weisel all along and he probably only trusts those who have assured the checks cleared into his account. We also don't know who he really is afraid of. When you look at the traffic of illegal drugs, currency and intellectual property it comes from everywhere but some jurisdictions seem to protect it like a franchise and don't even pretend to prosecute it. Think Eastern Europe and Asia were it is big business and while Lance may not have made alot of dough out of Astana and their contacts he knows he can't simply "appeal and negotiate" a sentence if he's forced to give up knowledge of related activity. Justice in that part of the world tends to be black and white and sentences handed out quickly. While we're debating minor issues for the GJ he's sweating whose bullseye is on his head aside from Novitsky.
Again; it doesn't matter what we think, debate and believe; only what Lance in his self-created world believes.

Totally agree, but you might want to back away from the bong...

 

[Oldman]

Totally agree, but you might want to back away from the bong...

No bong involved or it would have been in prose form. Have you ever dealt with oil money? Doesn't matter whether they're Texans or Kazakhs; they expect you to take the fall quietly.

 

[MarkvW]

Of course there is a factual dispute. Armstrong isn't admitting to doing anything improper. That's what juries are for--resolving issues of fact.

I'm not certain what you are basing your assertions on, but I can tell you that it will be more probable that the witness intimidation offense will be added to the indictment that is expected. It will likely be one of the underlying felonies of a RICO count. The letter apparently sent to Armstrong's counsel will have made clear that tampering is a serious felony.

The jury will decide whether the government has proved all the elements of the alleged crime as they do with all criminal charges. If tampering is added to an indictment, rest assured that the government will be of the position that it can prove the crime alleged beyond a reasonable doubt.

What facts do you have to support the assertion that this was a media set up? Assuming that it was, please explain how/why you feel that gives rise to a defense for Armstrong. Reminder--it isn't entrapment because the government was not involved in the set up, if in fact there was one.

Your conclusion about being indicted by now if there were a strong case tells me one very definite thing. You have very little knowledge of how the criminal justice system actually works.

My remarks were limited to witness tampering. Maybe the feds will toss witness tampering into the mix later, but if it was a strong case, they'd charge it NOW because witness tampering is something to be addressed promptly and aggressively.

I wasn't talking about Lance's defenses; I was pointing out proof problems, because the gov't has to prove every element beyond a reasonable doubt.

My conclusion is speculation, simple as that.

 

[jackwolf]

Is winning the public internet battle really worth paying all that money for?

Trolls' wages are cheap, especially when compared to Armstrong's fortune. At least the handful of trolls on this site are American and actually have some knowledge of cycling and cycling history. I suspect most of the trolls on other sites, like Yahoo! for example, are from countries like India and get paid peanuts and bread crumbs. They come out in battalions and flood the site whenever there's an article on Armstrong and then disappear never to be seen again.
By the way, whatever happened to Flicker? Did he develop psychological problems and decided this wasn't worth the money, or was he free-Lance (pun intended)?

 

[jackwolf]

And Fabiani, of course, is the Chief Executive Troll and gets paid more than all the other trolls combined. Still a pittance considering what's at stake.

 

[GreasyMonkey]

By the way, whatever happened to Flicker? Did he develop psychological problems and decided this wasn't worth the money, or was he free-Lance (pun intended)?

Banned for having a sock-puppet, "District 9" during his suspension. See http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showthread.php?t=11179&page=9 post #86.

Shall not be missed by the GM.....

 

[Cimacoppi49]

I am speculating LA has the high priced lawyers looking for a way to make this go away quietly. I don't see a "perp walk".
I've posted my view on this in another thread.
Any owed taxes/monies due, fines and penalties and interest will be paid.
This is going to be a sealed plea agreement, provided Feds have the goods.
There will be others to make us aware of cancer.
There will be others to run charity organizations.

Another possibility. By hiring two of the best defense attorneys out there, in San Francisco, he has prevented them from being retained by any of the other potential defendants. I doubt they are putting in many billable hours at this point. Fabiani and the other lawyer whose name is not in my head at the moment, are the only ones really doing any substantial work.

 

[davestoller]

This is why I do not feel too bad about the FFF. Most of the money came from Lance's friends. They donated so that Floyd could attack the french lab that found EPO in Lance's 1999 urine samples. I do not see them as victims. It is people like that who led Floyd down a dead end road.

The ordinary people who donated to the FFF were just plain stupid. They probably would have donated to an O.J. Simpson fund to find the real killers.

I was unaware that most of the money in FFF was from Lance's friends.
Can you post the source of this information?
or maybe retract it and get back to topic.