Official Lance Armstrong Thread **READ POST #1 BEFORE POSTING**

[Cimacoppi49]

It was record breaking for that particular institute (Cooper Aerobics) - a business operated as a health, wellness and fat reduction farm not an elite sports institute!

I suspect that LAF (Livestrong) interns are monitoring this forum and feeding Polish and DaveStoller their responses!

BTW, other TdF winners whose VO2max are superior to LA are Miguel Indurain, allegedly Alberto Contador (by calculation) and Cadel Evans.

They must be working those interns to death over there and in the pit at Fabiani's.

 

[Cimacoppi49]

It was record breaking for that particular institute (Cooper Aerobics) - a business operated as a health, wellness and fat reduction farm not an elite sports institute!

I suspect that LAF (Livestrong) interns are monitoring this forum and feeding Polish and DaveStoller their responses!

BTW, other TdF winners whose VO2max are superior to LA are Miguel Indurain, allegedly Alberto Contador (by calculation) and Cadel Evans.

Indurain was tested at 88 and Lemond at 93. I've seen references to Evans having tested at 92.

 

[Berzin]

No one who knows their stuff doubts that Eddy knew more about training, diet, physiology and adaptation in his day.

Period.

(He was also waaaay ahead of his time in terms of diet, organic food, gluten many other things that have now caught on).

Many other things that caught on? Really? Like the blood doping that went on in the 1984 Olympics cycling team under his watch?

Yes, then I would agree with you wholeheartedly.

 

[Polish]

And nowhere in your post does anyone suggest that this "beast" was going to be a Tour winner.

When he arrived in Europe there...:

People that knew Lance would win the Tour someday were Americans.

Polish Americans and Irish Americans and Italian Americans etc.
It was an American thing.
It was the pundits and experts here.
We knew. The next Greg LeMond. Yessirree.

The Euro Pro's and Pundits would come to the realization a bit later.

 

[GreasyMonkey]

Indurain was tested at 88 and Lemond at 93. I've seen references to Evans having tested at 92.

Re: Evan's VO2Max, an interesting article in the Sydney Morning Herald quoting Dr. Dave Martin on Evan's physiological capabilities.
http://www.smh.com.au/sport/cycling/why-evans-was-always-going-to-win-20110730-1i59s.html

 

[powerste]

And this nice summary of those early years by Outside Magazine:


http://www.outsideonline.com/outdoo...--I-m-the-First-Lance-Armstrong--.html?page=6

Oh FFS Polish...backing up your "Lance's GT awesomeness has always been widely touted" argument by citing Carmichael quoted in Outside mag? Next thing we know, you'll be pimping CTS training plans on CN Forums!

Credibility, buddy - or just stick to comedy...wait, maybe citing Wondercoach CC was comedy?

 

[MarkvW]

Many other things that caught on? Really? Like the blood doping that went on in the 1984 Olympics cycling team under his watch?

Yes, then I would agree with you wholeheartedly.

Why are you attacking Eddie B. for something that was perfectly within the rules and not harmful to the athlete? Attack him for something reasonable, but not for that.

There's nothing morally wrong about blood doping, just like there's nothing morally wrong about consuming caffeine before an event. Caffeine at a certain level used to be illegal. Now it is legal. Blood doping used to be legal, now it is illegal.

If blood doping was not illegal (as was the case in 1984) and did no harm to the athlete, what's wrong with it? What's your point?

 

[Willy_Voet]

Re: Evan's VO2Max, an interesting article in the Sydney Morning Herald quoting Dr. Dave Martin on Evan's physiological capabilities.
http://www.smh.com.au/sport/cycling/why-evans-was-always-going-to-win-20110730-1i59s.html

I've got nothing against Evans, but that article didn't reveal a lot. Actually, Martin sounds a lot like Carmichael, touting "tough mentality", "born winner", and "advanced training" as reasons for Evans' success.

 

[thehog]

I've got nothing against Evans, but that article didn't reveal a lot. Actually, Martin sounds a lot like Carmichael, touting "tough mentality", "born winner", and "advanced training" as reasons for Evans' success.

Agreed. Quoting articles from the Australian press will lead to tears.

Cadel knows. His time at Mapei served him well. But now. The final flame. I'd say he did it clean.

I remember him in Europe. Tough enough to say no. But he did dabble.

 

[Race Radio]

Why are you attacking Eddie B. for something that was perfectly within the rules and not harmful to the athlete?

Oh yeah, blood doping is completely safe.

Hey, what is Jesus Manzano doing laying on the ground? Must be taking a nap

Troll much?

 

[Polish]

Eddie B was famous for promoting any rider he was connected to as the "next big thing". Wonderboy was the lucky recipient of that irrational exuberance. Everyone on the team knew he had the potential to a be a good one day race but could not climb or TT.....perhaps due to his less then record breaking Vo2?

Eddie B predicted that Greg would win the Tour.
Eddie B predicted that Lance would win the Tour

Who else?

You say he was "famous for promoting ANY rider he was connected to".
And Eddie B was connected to many many many riders.
So who else did Eddie B claim could win the Tour?
Crickets chirp chirp?
Maybe Julich?
Do not recall Eddie B predicting that Tyler could win the Tour.

And the myth that there were "10 stronger riders than Lance" is BS.
This is the quote from Eddie B:

"Mr. Carmichael made a mistake," he said, "not to use the home advantage here." He said the course favors sprinters, and "there's 10 much faster guys, minimum, than Lance (Armstrong)," the U.S. team leader.

10 faster sprinters.
Lance was not a sprinter in Eddie B's opinion.
He was a Future Grand Tour winner.
Eddie B was right on both counts.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Why are you attacking Eddie B. for something that was perfectly within the rules and not harmful to the athlete? Attack him for something reasonable, but not for that.

There's nothing morally wrong about blood doping, just like there's nothing morally wrong about consuming caffeine before an event. Caffeine at a certain level used to be illegal. Now it is legal. Blood doping used to be legal, now it is illegal.

If blood doping was not illegal (as was the case in 1984) and did no harm to the athlete, what's wrong with it? What's your point?

Lawyer me this - if it was perfectly within the rules, not harmful to athletes and it is not morally wrong, then why was Eddy B suspended by the USCF?

 

[Kennf1]

Why are you attacking Eddie B. for something that was perfectly within the rules and not harmful to the athlete? Attack him for something reasonable, but not for that.

There's nothing morally wrong about blood doping, just like there's nothing morally wrong about consuming caffeine before an event. Caffeine at a certain level used to be illegal. Now it is legal. Blood doping used to be legal, now it is illegal.

If blood doping was not illegal (as was the case in 1984) and did no harm to the athlete, what's wrong with it? What's your point?

That's like saying there's nothing "morally wrong" with doing epo, since all it does is stimulate your body to make more red blood cells, "naturally."

 

[MacRoadie]

Lawyer me this - if it was perfectly within the rules, not harmful to athletes and it is not morally wrong, then why was Eddy B suspended by the USCF?

And why did they set up their little operation in a cheap motel in Carson? An operation done on the sly and with terrible medical oversight to the point where Mark Whitehead got hepatitis as a result?

We could ask Mark, but I'm going to his memorial service next Saturday. If he was still with us, he would probably paint a different picture too.

And let's not forget the USCF made doping illegal less than a year later as a result.

How many of you have even met Eddie B., or any of those involved in that terrible episode?

 

[Polish]

How many of you have even met Eddie B., or any of those involved in that terrible episode?

Lots of people know Eddie B.
Greg put together a Benefit for Eddie B a few years ago.
Lots of people showed up.
Lots of friends in cycling:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/photos/greg-lemonds-fantasy-cycling-camp
.
.
..

 

[Deagol]

You've climbed fourteen thousand foot mountains, snowboarded all the 4 mnts, mnt biked and road biked there, and did a road race at Grand Junction-and dropped the local guy acclimated to living @ 8,000 feet. Wow!

We are impressed with our (fake) selves aren't we?
.

Sorry, dave, but there is nothing fake about what I said or have done. You obviously missed my point- I was not bragging, but demonstrating familiarization with the area through a wide variety of things I have done there.

And not like it matters, but YES we dropped the %%$#@ from Aspen during the Unaweep Canyon Road Race (if you think altitude is the be-all and end-all of cycling, we also dropped a guy from Leadville, too). But again, that wasn't my point- the point is (re-read my post) there are both jerks and really cool people from Aspen.

14er: Pyramid Peak, where we met a local on the way up who ran a smaller restaurant, Road biked from Twin Lakes and back last summer during a camping trip, and yes, snowboarded all 4 mts. This seems like such a stupid thing to try and justify to anyone over the internet, but your "fake self" comment ****ed me off.

And everyone has heard of the Aspen Institute, FFS.

In case you hadn't realized, in Colorado, almost everyone who lives outside of Boulder & Aspen likes to make fun of Boulder & Aspen due to the maybe partial jealousy, maybe ripping on the elite for whatever reason, or some other reason. I was trying to interject a bit of balance there because, geographically, I believe Aspen lives up to the hype.

I don't know anything about you, aside what you have posted here, but you sure do make a lot of assumptions based on limited information.

 

[Boeing]

Sorry, dave, but there is nothing fake about what I said or have done. You obviously missed my point- I was not bragging, but demonstrating familiarization with the area through a wide variety of things I have done there.

And not like it matters, but YES we dropped the %%$#@ from Aspen during the Unaweep Canyon Road Race (if you think altitude is the be-all and end-all of cycling, we also dropped a guy from Leadville, too). But again, that wasn't my point- the point is (re-read my post) there are both jerks and really cool people from Aspen.

14er: Pyramid Peak, where we met a local on the way up who ran a smaller restaurant, Road biked from Twin Lakes and back last summer during a camping trip, and yes, snowboarded all 4 mts. This seems like such a stupid thing to try and justify to anyone over the internet, but your "fake self" comment ****ed me off.

And everyone has heard of the Aspen Institute, FFS.

In case you hadn't realized, in Colorado, almost everyone who lives outside of Boulder & Aspen likes to make fun of Boulder & Aspen due to the maybe partial jealousy, maybe ripping on the elite for whatever reason, or some other reason. I was trying to interject a bit of balance there because, geographically, I believe Aspen lives up to the hype.

I don't know anything about you, aside what you have posted here, but you sure do make a lot of assumptions based on limited information.

an I have a large hairy.....never mind

 

[MacRoadie]

Lots of people know Eddie B.
Greg put together a Benefit for Eddie B a few years ago.
Lots of people showed up.
Lots of friends in cycling:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/photos/greg-lemonds-fantasy-cycling-camp
.
.
..

So you've never met any of these people. I didn't think so. All Google searches and web links. Not a single first-hand experience.

 

[MarkvW]

Oh yeah, blood doping is completely safe.

Hey, what is Jesus Manzano doing laying on the ground? Must be taking a nap

Troll much?

Nothing like another unfair argument. I said it wasn't harmful to the athlete. You cannot identify one 1984 Olympic athlete who was harmed by the blood doping administered to them.

Of course blood doping can be messed up, but I didn't argue it was "completely safe." I said it was not harmful to the athlete. And it wasn't--the way it was administered to the '84 athletes.

And your argument is also unfair because (a) Manzano was on a cocktail of dope; and (b) he went down in the Tour on OXYGLOBIN--not his own blood.

And you call me a troll? Your argument is pathetically helpless.

 

[MacRoadie]

Nothing like another unfair argument. I said it wasn't harmful to the athlete. You cannot identify one 1984 Olympic athlete who was harmed by the blood doping administered to them.

Of course blood doping can be messed up, but I didn't argue it was "completely safe." I said it was not harmful to the athlete. And it wasn't--the way it was administered to the '84 athletes.

And your argument is also unfair because (a) Manzano was on a cocktail of dope; and (b) he went down in the Tour on OXYGLOBIN--not his own blood.

And you call me a troll? Your argument is pathetically helpless.

Mark Whitehead contracted hepatitis as a direct result of his transfusion. His fever spiked at 104 degrees and it almost definitely cost him a medal. He was never the same, physically.

 

[MarkvW]

Mark Whitehead contracted hepatitis as a direct result of his transfusion. His fever spiked at 104 degrees and it almost definitely cost him a medal. He was never the same, physically.

Agreed. Homologous blood doping is risky.

 

[fatandfast]

Mark Whitehead contracted hepatitis as a direct result of his transfusion. His fever spiked at 104 degrees and it almost definitely cost him a medal. He was never the same, physically.

Lots of riders got the "fever". My understanding is that lots of guys are told that as long as your blood gets in the fridge fast everything is ok. Again this is what was explained to me, once your blood goes in a bag and it's not frozen really fast, the finite number of antibodies included in the removed blood begin to work on the bacteria in the blood bag. Since none of your other organs are part of the process. You are putting a bag that may have lots of desired properties but it is also way more like pus than you would want to think. It's also my understanding that lots of people get sick a couple of days after a bag

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Nothing like another unfair argument. I said it wasn't harmful to the athlete. You cannot identify one 1984 Olympic athlete who was harmed by the blood doping administered to them.

Of course blood doping can be messed up, but I didn't argue it was "completely safe." I said it was not harmful to the athlete. And it wasn't--the way it was administered to the '84 athletes.

And your argument is also unfair because (a) Manzano was on a cocktail of dope; and (b) he went down in the Tour on OXYGLOBIN--not his own blood.

And you call me a troll? Your argument is pathetically helpless.

What about the time Manzano reclaimed his own blood in Spain?

Manzano got on a train to Valencia and met an assistant of the team doctor who gave him his blood. "There were no cross checks...it could have been the blood of Pepito Flores," he said. He was injected with 125 ml of blood and immediately "I started to feel very, very bad. Chills and shivers, even with the blankets they gave me I felt colder than if I was at the North Pole."

"If they had put in half a litre I would have returned in a pine box," he continued. "They put 125-175 ml in me and this happened...I understood that the blood was at the Tour and wasn't stored properly."

Was that a healthy experience?

 

[Race Radio]

Nothing like another unfair argument. I said it wasn't harmful to the athlete. You cannot identify one 1984 Olympic athlete who was harmed by the blood doping administered to them.

Of course blood doping can be messed up, but I didn't argue it was "completely safe." I said it was not harmful to the athlete. And it wasn't--the way it was administered to the '84 athletes.

And your argument is also unfair because (a) Manzano was on a cocktail of dope; and (b) he went down in the Tour on OXYGLOBIN--not his own blood.

And you call me a troll? Your argument is pathetically helpless.

Guess you missed the part about Mark Whitehead getting hepatitis from the transfusion.

http://www.bendbulletin.com/article/20110711/NEWS0107/107110355/

After the transfusions, Whitehead and another cyclist became ill.

You must have forgotten, or did not know, that the transfusions they took in 1984 were of other peoples blood not their own. Here is a good review by Les Ernest, who was a director of USA cycling at the time and was in the hotel
http://www.stanford.edu/~learnest/cyclops/dopes.htm

transfusions involve considerably greater risks than self-infusions.

medical literature that had been read by the organizers of this project pointed out that the use of transfusions for blood boosting is unethical.

Self-infusions involve relatively low risk if done right, but transfusions involve risks of various allergic reactions as well as the transmission of certain diseases. In fact, we know now that some of the riders might have contracted AIDS through this process; there was no test for it then

.

a least one rider had a worse performance as a result

one or more female athletes might have developed blood antibodies that could later attack her fetus if she became pregnant.

It was so risky and unethical that both team doctors refused to take part.

Blood doping was indeed against IOC policy

The IOC's doping policy bans "any physiological substance taken in abnormal quantity or taken by an abnormal route of entry into the body, with the sole intention of increasing in an artificial and unfair manner performance in competition...."

When someone pretends that such a risky and unethical procedure was morally OK and safe it is easy for this to appear as an effort to troll for a response

 

[Kodiak]

lancearmstrong Lance Armstrong
At dinner here in CB w/ @wienr, @len_zanni, @mountain_flyer, and crew. Better eat some pasta so I can survive tomorrow.


my response...


RobKellley Rob Kelley
@ @lancearmstrong @wienr @len_zanni @mountain_flyer better get a side of plea deal while your at it. You might need it there slick.