Official Lance Armstrong Thread **READ POST #1 BEFORE POSTING**

[alpine_chav]

Despite my morbid curiosity to know all the details I hope Lance gets off because what did he really do? Nothing too bad on the grand scale of things. Lots of other people I'd rather see get banged up. War criminals for one.

 

[Merckx index]

The classical thinkers (Plato, Aristotle, Dionysis the Areopagite) are the fathers of western culture and they had something to say on this.

They argued that an act isn't good unless it's good in all respects, from the intention, the means of achieving it and the consequences of the act themselves. If any part of the act isn't good, then the outcome cannot be justified.

With all due respect to the great Greek philosophers, I don't know of a single act that is good in all its parts. Do you? I don't know of a single act that is totally pure in its intentions, and has no negative consequences. Do you? In today's extraordinarily complex world, no individual can even grasp all the consequences of his/her acts, so it would be foolish to pretend to know that all of them were positive.

Not intended as an argument for LA. But really, this old ends vs. means argument needs to be updated with about a century's worth of scientific advances. We know far, far, far more about the way complex systems behave than the Greeks did--and our knowledge should make us extremely humble about making generalizations.

 

[TheMaverick]

Yes - who was the Ferrari customer that Landis beat in 2006?

I know some people attribute supernatural powers to Ferrari but but I've never bought into that. It isn't that hard to do blood transfusions and HGH or testosterone. I think they liked having him around as security for when procedures and tests changed over time, and felt comfortable with his style of training regime, but if Landis is to be believed it was overhyped. He didn't bother following it and still did very well.

 

[9000ft]

While said congressman may be looking to shine a light on himself, if the FDA and all others spend 200 million to find LA took something that wasn't illegal at the time, I do concider it a waste of taxpayer money. If our 200 plus million nets the whole American Cycling drug ring then we have something. I guess I'm looking to get the most out of the tax dollars, the old cost verse benefit.

Do you really thing the average US taxpayer gives a s**t about cycling and PED use in cycling? The question raised is a fair one (very few of the posts in this thread address it preferring instead to comment on the congressman's, politics, religious beliefs, appearance, etc) and plenty of people brought it up during the whole Mark McGwire thing: Given all the priorities, budget realities, and things an agent in the USDA can spend their time on, should going after pro sports figures for using PEDs be one of them?

As always, the clinic provides fascinating entertainment, especially when one Mr. Lance Armstrong is the subject

 

[alpine_chav]

Do you really thing the average US taxpayer gives a s**t about cycling and PED use in cycling? The question raised is a fair one (very few of the posts in this thread address it preferring instead to comment on the congressman's, politics, religious beliefs, appearance, etc) and plenty of people brought it up during the whole Mark McGwire thing: Given all the priorities, budget realities, and things an agent in the USDA can spend their time on, should going after pro sports figures for using PEDs be one of them?

As always, the clinic provides fascinating entertainment, especially when one Mr. Lance Armstrong is the subject

Right on the money!

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Do you really thing the average US taxpayer gives a s**t about cycling and PED use in cycling? The question raised is a fair one (very few of the posts in this thread address it preferring instead to comment on the congressman's, politics, religious beliefs, appearance, etc) and plenty of people brought it up during the whole Mark McGwire thing: Given all the priorities, budget realities, and things an agent in the USDA can spend their time on, should going after pro sports figures for using PEDs be one of them?

As always, the clinic provides fascinating entertainment, especially when one Mr. Lance Armstrong is the subject

Novitzky is an investigator for the FDA - so he is doing as he is paid to do by the US taxpayer.

I trust the average US taxpayer would welcome that no-one is beyond the rule of law.

 

[D-Queued]

Do you really thing the average US taxpayer gives a s**t about cycling and PED use in cycling? The question raised is a fair one (very few of the posts in this thread address it preferring instead to comment on the congressman's, politics, religious beliefs, appearance, etc) and plenty of people brought it up during the whole Mark McGwire thing: Given all the priorities, budget realities, and things an agent in the USDA can spend their time on, should going after pro sports figures for using PEDs be one of them?

As always, the clinic provides fascinating entertainment, especially when one Mr. Lance Armstrong is the subject

I dunno.

Do you think the average US taxpayer gives a s**t about anything?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YOh-rpvjYg

How about political interference?

What about a Congressman in a position of budgetary and committe influence who decides to speak out in opposition to a criminal case a particular government agency is pursuing? Does that raise any US taxpayer eyebrows? What if that case involves the rich and famous? Will they give a s**t now?

It is only a guess, but the average US taxpayer likely gives more of a s**t about political influence peddling for the rich and famous than they do about cycling.

This is why the Congressman's record is so important. By speaking up, he is demonstrating that he feels it is ok to apply political influence to thwart an investigation.

So what if Lance broke some laws? He is a rich, famous guy and we should just let him go.

Just like that Abramoff guy.

AP: Kingston had refused to give up the money last week, when several members of Georgia's congressional delegation returned or donated at least part of the contributions they had received from the once-influential lobbyist who has pleaded guilty to criminal charges

So what if Abramoff broke a few laws?

Sure sounds familiar.

Dave.

 

[Polish]

Polish generally shows intelligence, but he showed the opposite here.

Thanks.
And hey, if I can bat .333 I feel ok...

Best post on the thread. (bala verde's) A+ in political science. This investigation is not even large enough to be a drop in the bucket when you look at expenditures for the FDA. One must then ask if possibly, and call me crazy, a politician is making a public statement for rhetorical purposes as opposed to actually being concerned with fiscal ideological concerns. I know that is has never happened in the history of mankind, but I think this might be the first...

Yes, the Lance case is only a drop in the bucket.
And the Barry Bonds case is only a drop in the bucket too.

However, they are very very High Profile drops.

And it may be safe to assume, that if there is a waste of taxpayer money in those two drops - they may also be waste in the rest of the bucket.
Tip of an iceberg? Maybe there is additional waste of taxpayer money going on?

The High Profile Drops better be squeaky clean.
White Glove Test. No waste. Less than a picogram of waste
Lots of attention focused on the FDA with Lance and Barry...

I do expect to see the FDA come out with guns blazing in their cases against Lance and Barry. We will see how it plays in Peoria...

 

[Race Radio]

Do you really thing the average US taxpayer gives a s**t about cycling and PED use in cycling? The question raised is a fair one (very few of the posts in this thread address it preferring instead to comment on the congressman's, politics, religious beliefs, appearance, etc) and plenty of people brought it up during the whole Mark McGwire thing: Given all the priorities, budget realities, and things an agent in the USDA can spend their time on, should going after pro sports figures for using PEDs be one of them?

As always, the clinic provides fascinating entertainment, especially when one Mr. Lance Armstrong is the subject

Do you really think that is all the case is about? Really?

You might want to actually read the article, and many of the other great reporting in the WSJ, SI, NYT etc. It is easy to see that this is far beyond a few doses of EPO.

You may want to spend more time in the clinic so you actually know what is going on and don't appear so silly when you post stuff like that.

 

[TheMaverick]

Again BPC - which customer of Ferraris did he beat in 2006?

Isn't that a bit of a high school debating team type of answer?

Ferrari has been linked to riders like Levi Leipheimer, Kloden and Popovich who have never won the tour.

 

[Oldman]

Do you really thing the average US taxpayer gives a s**t about cycling and PED use in cycling? The question raised is a fair one (very few of the posts in this thread address it preferring instead to comment on the congressman's, politics, religious beliefs, appearance, etc) and plenty of people brought it up during the whole Mark McGwire thing: Given all the priorities, budget realities, and things an agent in the USDA can spend their time on, should going after pro sports figures for using PEDs be one of them?

As always, the clinic provides fascinating entertainment, especially when one Mr. Lance Armstrong is the subject

The average taxpayer shouldn't give a sh*t about cycling. It is a narrowly followed sport dedicated to extreme suffering. What's entertaining about that when Nascar's around? That's what you wanted to hear but, again; that's not what it's about.
What you and that taxpayer would/should care about is having the drug supply intended to cure the ill turned into a black market industry with serious potential for widespread ecomomic, criminal and health impacts.
The legislator in question clearly lacks the skills he should have. Because an misinformed moron has a media forum doesn't mean what he says is correct. Que?

 

[Race Radio]

Troll babble
And the Barry Bonds case is only a drop in the bucket too.
More Troll Babble

I know the groupies love to try to pretend that the Armstrong investigation is the same as the Bonds case but it could not be farther from the truth

Armstrong is being investigated by the FDA, U.S. Postal Service’s Office of Inspector General, the Federal Bureau of Investigation, both the civil and criminal divisions of the Department of Justice, The IRS, The French, Belgium, and Italian Police.....is the same happening with Bonds?

How many people are going to go to prison instead of testifying like Greg Anderson does for Bonds? Nobody is going to prison for Wonderboy

 

[Anonymous]

Do you really thing the average US taxpayer gives a s**t about cycling and PED use in cycling? The question raised is a fair one (very few of the posts in this thread address it preferring instead to comment on the congressman's, politics, religious beliefs, appearance, etc) and plenty of people brought it up during the whole Mark McGwire thing: Given all the priorities, budget realities, and things an agent in the USDA can spend their time on, should going after pro sports figures for using PEDs be one of them?

As always, the clinic provides fascinating entertainment, especially when one Mr. Lance Armstrong is the subject

So ignorant people who care nothing of cycling in general should determine who should be investigated and who does not deserve punishment for their crimes based on their ennui? Sounds like a wonderful precedent. Good luck sustaining a legal system on such constructs.

 

[Anonymous]

Thanks.
And hey, if I can bat .333 I feel ok...



Yes, the Lance case is only a drop in the bucket.
And the Barry Bonds case is only a drop in the bucket too.

However, they are very very High Profile drops.

And it may be safe to assume, that if there is a waste of taxpayer money in those two drops - they may also be waste in the rest of the bucket.
Tip of an iceberg? Maybe there is additional waste of taxpayer money going on?

The High Profile Drops better be squeaky clean.
White Glove Test. No waste. Less than a picogram of waste
Lots of attention focused on the FDA with Lance and Barry...

I do expect to see the FDA come out with guns blazing in their cases against Lance and Barry. We will see how it plays in Peoria...

Have you ever looked at a budget? It thrives on waste. Its whole raison de tere is waste. Picking out an investigation involving the biggest sporting fraud in the history of sport (well, the Black Sox were pretty bad, but when you consider the swindling of people in the guise of "cancer awareness," I think he tops them) is clearly an issue vitally important to the American public. Clearly reasonable people can agree on that, yes?

 

[Polish]

Do you really thing the average US taxpayer gives a s**t about cycling and PED use in cycling? The question raised is a fair one (very few of the posts in this thread address it preferring instead to comment on the congressman's, politics, religious beliefs, appearance, etc) and plenty of people brought it up during the whole Mark McGwire thing: Given all the priorities, budget realities, and things an agent in the USDA can spend their time on, should going after pro sports figures for using PEDs be one of them?

As always, the clinic provides fascinating entertainment, especially when one Mr. Lance Armstrong is the subject

Good points

I expect to see the "Sporting Dope Squad" of the FDA suffer from the same type of budget trimming that affected Inspector Bordry and the Government funded AFLD. Many have thought that messing with Lance will get them MORE budget money....ooops backassward. Spitting into the wind.

 

[Race Radio]

Good points

I expect to see the "Sporting Dope Squad" of the FDA suffer from the same type of budget trimming that affected Inspector Bordry and the Government funded AFLD. Many have thought that messing with Lance will get them MORE budget money....ooops backassward. Spitting into the wind.

How about the U.S. Postal Service’s Office of Inspector General, the FBI, both the civil and criminal divisions of the Department of Justice, The IRS, The French, Belgium, and Italian Police......will Lance cut their budget's as well?

Who knew Wonderboy is the solution to the budget crisis? He does have special powers.

 

[flicker]

Thanks.
And hey, if I can bat .333 I feel ok...



Yes, the Lance case is only a drop in the bucket.
And the Barry Bonds case is only a drop in the bucket too.

However, they are very very High Profile drops.

And it may be safe to assume, that if there is a waste of taxpayer money in those two drops - they may also be waste in the rest of the bucket.
Tip of an iceberg? Maybe there is additional waste of taxpayer money going on?

The High Profile Drops better be squeaky clean.
White Glove Test. No waste. Less than a picogram of waste
Lots of attention focused on the FDA with Lance and Barry...

I do expect to see the FDA come out with guns blazing in their cases against Lance and Barry. We will see how it plays in Peoria...

You know come to think of it it was really worth it that they saved Monika's stained skirt.....money really well spent! Did they DNA test Monika's dress, wow I thought that was really a worthwhile USA tax dollars spent.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Isn't that a bit of a high school debating team type of answer?

Ferrari has been linked to riders like Levi Leipheimer, Kloden and Popovich who have never won the tour.

No BPC - the high school debating would be not answering the question - so who was he working with in 2006?

You really shouldn't let the fact that Ferrari was known as the best doping doctor upset you so much.
Can you show a link where Kloden or Levi worked with Ferrari?

 

[Polish]

Have you ever looked at a budget? It thrives on waste. Its whole raison de tere is waste. Picking out an investigation involving the biggest sporting fraud in the history of sport (well, the Black Sox were pretty bad, but when you consider the swindling of people in the guise of "cancer awareness," I think he tops them) is clearly an issue vitally important to the American public. Clearly reasonable people can agree on that, yes?

No, Lance is not the biggest sporting fraud in the history of sport.
And the FDA is not in the sporting fraud business.

But I do agree with you about the thriving waste of taxpayer money.
(I also agree with Lance and Fabiani about the waste of taxpayer money)
The vast majority of taxpayers will not like the waste of taxpayer money exhibited soon in the Barry and Lance cases IMO. We wil see, we will see.

 

[uspostal]

So ignorant people who care nothing of cycling in general should determine who should be investigated and who does not deserve punishment for their crimes based on their ennui? Sounds like a wonderful precedent. Good luck sustaining a legal system on such constructs.

I guess ignorant people who don't want to spend 200 million to find LA guilty of a crime that isn't a crime at the time. So I guess only people who care about cycling should be allowed to seek justice on people they wish. I feel so much better now !!! Its really reassuring to see the thought put behind that post. I cycle so I'm better, thats good. Our legal system is innocent until proven guilty, not I cycle so your guilty.

 

[Race Radio]

You know come to think of it it was really worth it that they saved Monika's stained skirt.....money really well spent! Did they DNA test Monika's dress, wow I thought that was really a worthwhile USA tax dollars spent.

How about all that tax money paid to Mar Fabiani to lie about the dress? Mark does have a great ability to attach himself to lying douchebags

 

[Dr. Maserati]

I guess ignorant people who don't want to spend 200 million to find LA guilty of a crime that isn't a crime at the time. So I guess only people who care about cycling should be allowed to seek justice on people they wish. I feel so much better now !!! Its really reassuring to see the thought put behind that post. I cycle so I'm better, thats good. Our legal system is innocent until proven guilty, not I cycle so your guilty.

Thats the second time you have brought up $200 million - can you link or cite that amount?

Also - using unapproved drugs, trafficking, distribution, and fraud weren't crimes at the time?

 

[Race Radio]

I guess ignorant people who don't want to spend 200 million to find LA guilty of a crime that isn't a crime at the time. So I guess only people who care about cycling should be allowed to seek justice on people they wish. I feel so much better now !!! Its really reassuring to see the thought put behind that post. I cycle so I'm better, thats good. Our legal system is innocent until proven guilty, not I cycle so your guilty.

If you have followed the reporting on the case from WSJ, NYT, SI, and even Velonews it appears that Armstrong, and others, are being investigated for a wide range of criminal activity. Using experimental, non-approved drugs, trafficing, money laundering, tax evasion, Foreign Corrupt practices act, Fraud, Even RICO.

Are you saying he should get a pass on all of that or just the doping stuff?

 

[TheMaverick]

No BPC - the high school debating would be not answering the question - so who was he working with in 2006?

You really shouldn't let the fact that Ferrari was known as the best doping doctor upset you so much.
Can you show a link where Kloden or Levi worked with Ferrari?

High school debating clubs ask disingenious questions rather than have a honest discussion, then claim victory when their silly question is not entertained. Okay I am not aware of whether Levi and Kloden were working with Ferrari that precise year, nor do I know whether Armstrong was working with him in 2009 and 2010 when he lost. Presumably you believe LA could not have lost those two tours without his help? Now answer my question?

Getting back to the point, we have it from Landis himself that he didn't need Ferrari to do blood transfusions and take HGH. Landis infers that Ferrari is overhyped and he says he did not follow his training plan. Landis won the tour. It shouldn't upset you that Ferrari may not have magical powers.

This "BPC" name. Is this something you do get the person you disagree with disappear without trace? There are a number of threads that read rather oddly that involve you and persons unknown. If that is your game, I think that is crap.

 

[Race Radio]

Getting back to the point, we have it from Landis himself that he didn't need Ferrari to do blood transfusions and take HGH. Landis infers that Ferrari is overhyped and he says he did not follow his training plan. Landis won the tour. It shouldn't upset you that Ferrari may not have magical powers.

Where has he said this....or did you just make it up?