Official Lance Armstrong Thread **READ POST #1 BEFORE POSTING**

[MarkvW]

The implications of this statement—that “good” people do what it takes to survive cancer, and “bad” people don’t—is total BS. People survive or don’t survive cancer largely because of factors out of their control. The one thing they can do—if they have enough money, or if they live in a country that doesn’t deny health care to people who aren’t rich—is find good treatment. After that, it’s largely a matter of what type of cancer it is, and how soon after it developed that it was diagnosed and treated. The only relevant factor we know for sure is that LA let the cancer progress far further than he should have before seeking treatment. Probably because he was an athlete accustomed to denying pain or pathology. This is on the record, and indicates that in this respect, he was just damn lucky to survive (though it’s not unusual, see below).



Do you have a link for this?



As I said before, if he took EPO when he returned in 2009—a question that may very well be answered at some point in the future—that has huge ramifications for his image as a spokesman to cure cancer. Beyond that, a discussion of this topic just might be considered by young riders who are considering the pros and cons of doping.

There are many examples of factors that result in a relatively small but significant increase in cancers (e.g., second-hand smoke; certain kinds of foods). It’s possible that certain PEDs are in that class. Because the effect is relatively small, it might not be at all apparent in looking at a population of riders. Obviously it would be very difficult to do a rigorous epidemiological study of them, particularly when very few of them will admit to doping, and even those that do, we don’t know exactly when, for how long, what, and how much.



This is a very interesting link, and suggests an actual mechanism that could account for some causative effect of certain PEDs on cancer. This study found, in essence, that while evidence of parvovirus infection is present in the circulation of a majority of subjects (both with and without testicular cancer), it was also found in the testis of a large majority of individuals with testicular cancer, but not in any controls. Antibody examination showed that the virus was not in the blood as a result of acute infection, IOW, it had been around for some time. In individuals who developed testicular cancer, the virus found its way into the testis.

We don’t know why, but one reasonable possibility, as RR notes, is that immunosuppression could result in inadequate neutralization of the virus, allowing it to infect the testis and possibly trigger events leading to cancer. The relationship between viruses and cancer is heavily researched now, and several cancers are known to have viral causes.



The same figure appeared in another statistic in this paper:



This paper was published in 1998, not long after LA’s bout with cancer. I guess 85% of the population has laser-like focus, Polish.



Of course. I think RR was just noting that immunosuppression might increase the chances of a virus--already known to be present in large proportion of the population--infecting a tissue and causing cancer there.



No, the fact that controls have just as great a seroprevalence of the virus is evidence that the virus is not "caused by cancer". You could argue that cancer began from an independent mechanism, and the cancerous tissue in some manner made it possible for the virus to infect it. But given the strong evidence that viruses can have a causative role in cancers, that would probably be considered by most researchers as less likely.

The authors raise both possibilities in their conclusions, though emphasizing the notion that the virus could have caused the cancer:



Yes, the virus usually is benign, as are many viruses known to cause cancer. The question is why or how it becomes malignant, and immunosuppression is a very real possibility.



We certainly can't conclude that drug-induced immunosuppression was a cause of LA's cancer, agreed. As I said before, the value and interest of RR's links is that it suggests a possible connection between certain PEDs and cancer, which ought to be of general interest in this forum regardless of whether it's relevant to LA's cancer. And again, if LA was shown to take one of these drugs at a time when evidence for this connection was known, shame on him. The article RR cited was published in 1998. It would be interesting to know if LA's doctors knew about this work, given that his TUE for cortisone was at about the same time.

Bottom line: No one is saying this work proves anything, for anyone let alone LA. But I find it very relevant to this thread.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18539403

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12185288

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10748869

Some studies since have found an association of the virus with germ cell tumors, though in a lower proportion of subjects. AFAIK, whether the virus precedes the tumor or vice-versa has not yet been settled.

Thanks. That was very informative. My gripe was the implied assertion that the 85% recited in the article could be translated into an 85% likelihood that Armstrong's cancer was caused or exacerbated by his doping.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Thanks. That was very informative. My gripe was the implied assertion that the 85% recited in the article could be translated into an 85% likelihood that Armstrong's cancer was caused or exacerbated by his doping.

So, you are offended that you read in to something that someone didn't actually say?

 

[Race Radio]

snip

Good review.

There is not a smoking gun but there is increased likelihood that is worth discussion. Beyond the multiple studies that show ancillary evidence it is hard to ignore the 4 National team riders getting ill and Ferrari voicing his concerns.

The riders on the National Team are hardly the only athletes to get ill. There is a great book called Faust's Gold to not only details the East German state doping program but also the horrible effects, including cancer

http://www.shorel.com/faust.cfm

 

[fatandfast]

merckx, I understand what you are saying, I am not saying bad or good. I am saying that doctors often deal w people who are in a very poor state both mentally and physically(financial left out because that can cause both).

Armstrong's doctors made many pre and post procedure comments about him being a model patient. If if it was based on good or bad, like cheating on your wife, crushing kittens under your boot bad, I think the outcome for Lance would have been very different. I have been told there is a guy you can make a deal w to save your soul, maybe that's what he did, rather than excellent medical care and an outstanding baseline mentally and physically or the dreaded combo deal

 

[JMBeaushrimp]

Thanks, RR and MI. Great info.

Why was LA such a good patient? He was willing to do whatever it takes - it's his MO...

 

[Anonymous]

No TFF, Lance flushed it.

But only after researching all the different toilet bowl designs.
And bringing in plumbers and getting second opinions.
Surrounding himself with supportive family and friends.
Only then was the cancer flushed.
Lazer Like Flush.

The plumbers called it a miracle.
Lance called it luck.

Sure, whatever.
A miraculously lucky flush.

Don't believe it.

Now there is the Polish I know and love.

 

[Anonymous]

wow.you may want to get some quotes from Armstrong's medical team about his role in overcoming his cancer. If he had roaches, they said he played a large roll in the abatement of the unwanted.
It is really hard to draw lines, cancer,champion, fundraiser, drug user,ego maniac but the lines are there. Armstrong has done lots wrong ,no clear start. Maybe screwing over his loving ,faithful wife.
His post cancer persona are full of ugly anecdotes. He was an excellent patient by the description of people who know what the good ones and bad ones act like. I know it's not what anybody wants to hear but I respect the doctors that spoke of his qualities

I'd tell my friends who died of cancer that the reason they didn't make it was because they didn't have a champion's attitude. Unfortunately, they died, so there are some logistical problems...Though both of them were twice the people Armstrong is, so you will have to excuse me if I don't buy into the myth of Lance's strength of will ousting the cancer.

 

[MarkvW]

So, you are offended that you read in to something that someone didn't actually say?

Funny. Use innuendo to make a point and then try to scurry behind the precise meaning of word

 

[MarkvW]

I'd tell my friends who died of cancer that the reason they didn't make it was because they didn't have a champion's attitude. Unfortunately, they died, so there are some logistical problems...Though both of them were twice the people Armstrong is, so you will have to excuse me if I don't buy into the myth of Lance's strength of will ousting the cancer.

Cancer is an awful subject. Almost every Western family is somehow touched by it. Sorry about your friends.

 

[Oldman]

merckx, I understand what you are saying, I am not saying bad or good. I am saying that doctors often deal w people who are in a very poor state both mentally and physically(financial left out because that can cause both).

Armstrong's doctors made many pre and post procedure comments about him being a model patient. If if it was based on good or bad, like cheating on your wife, crushing kittens under your boot bad, I think the outcome for Lance would have been very different. I have been told there is a guy you can make a deal w to save your soul, maybe that's what he did, rather than excellent medical care and an outstanding baseline mentally and physically or the dreaded combo deal

Doctors like patients that improve their recovery numbers. Like anyone else they tolerate egotistical self-promoters as long as it serves their best interests. My Dad was old and tired. They told him he would live 1+ years and put that into their records for his diagnosis. He lasted longer but the numbers were served.
As for attributing survival to attitude-my Dad always was a quietly heroic guy that went the extra mile for his friends and people he didn't know. He really wanted to live each and every extra day and he did it by his will so that part could be true.

 

[Oldman]

His birthday was today.

 

[Father Jack]

I suspect that the fact he was called a "model" patient has nothing to do with him personally, only that his body responded well to the treatment.

 

[thirteen]

His birthday was today.

happy birthday to him... your dad sounds like a really cool man.

 

[Race Radio]

I'd tell my friends who died of cancer that the reason they didn't make it was because they didn't have a champion's attitude. Unfortunately, they died, so there are some logistical problems...Though both of them were twice the people Armstrong is, so you will have to excuse me if I don't buy into the myth of Lance's strength of will ousting the cancer.

My college roommate was a champion (Soccer). Played on the US National team, Professionally in Europe. He fought, hard. Tried everything but there was no chance.

I flew out to spend a last weekend with him and as I drove him around to various lawyers, therapists, and insurance etc he was ****ed. Why was he, a guy who had spent his life taking care of his body, dying in his 30's while 400 pound people lumbered around everywhere? It made no sense

I never brought up Armstrong as I did not waste my limited time with him....but he eventually brought him up. He mentioned how his doctor thought he was a scam artist. Got a laugh out of that.

 

[Cobblestoned]

My college roommate was a champion (Soccer). Played on the US National team, Professionally in Europe. He fought, hard. Tried everything but there was no chance.

I flew out to spend a last weekend with him and as I drove him around to various lawyers, therapists, and insurance etc he was ****ed. Why was he, a guy who had spent his life taking care of his body, dying in his 30's while 400 pound people lumbered around everywhere? It made no sense

I never brought up Armstrong as I did not waste my limited time with him....but he eventually brought him up. He mentioned how his doctor thought he was a scam artist. Got a laugh out of that.

Yeah, me too.
Heartbreaking storys.

 

[Race Radio]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-wnIbXeeDU

Oh, that has to suck. Wonderboy getting dropped on a climb by a TriAthlete

Word is after the race he was frantically looking around the parking lot for an RV to jump into.

 

[DirtyWorks]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-wnIbXeeDU

Oh, that has to suck. Wonderboy getting dropped on a climb by a TriAthlete

Word is after the race he was frantically looking around the parking lot for an RV to jump into.

Where's that revolutionary 'spin' that earned him multiple TdF crowns? Where's that super-human engine that Coyle tested? The guy needs to not race anywhere ever again if he wants the myth to live on.

On second thought, keep going wonderboy!

 

[Boeing]

I love videos with helicopters and guilty people in wife beaters

 

[Havetts]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-wnIbXeeDU

Oh, that has to suck. Wonderboy getting dropped on a climb by a TriAthlete

Word is after the race he was frantically looking around the parking lot for an RV to jump into.

He wasn't riding with a high cadence, thats why he got overtaken obviously.

 

[Cobblestoned]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-wnIbXeeDU

Oh, that has to suck. Wonderboy getting dropped on a climb by a TriAthlete

Word is after the race he was frantically looking around the parking lot for an RV to jump into.

*edited*.
How desperate must someone be, to be satisfied by this ?
Oh dear. Getting totally dropped, lol.
And of course busy filling the commentssection with supercool comments. Well done, dude.
When Lance kicks ***, you same guys complain about him beating and riding with amateurs, and state that he is on juice.
Another win win situation created to satisfie yourself.

Lance can't do anything right and is essential for your life.

 

[palmerq]

Dear Mr cobblestoned leave stuff like this out of your posts, you were warned already... you have a point with the rest of your post though.


same goes for everyone else

 

[ChrisE]

Why would you cite something and not actually read it?

No where does he say that he paid "Hundreds and hundreds of thousands". In fact, Lance doesn't know much about it - so it's hard to infer anything from these lines.

Thank you, Ferminal. I know this ran its course a couple of days ago but for the record you are now a Fabiani clone for pointing this out, just like I got attacked when I first called Polish on this.

 

[Ferminal]

Thank you, Ferminal. I know this ran its course a couple of days ago but for the record you are now a Fabiani clone for pointing this out, just like I got attacked when I first called Polish on this.

Where do I collect the cheque?

 

[ChrisE]

Where do I collect the cheque?

I dunno. I've been waiting for that Public Strategy one for awhile now.

 

[ChrisE]

My bad. I was referring to replacing Polish with another person from Fabiani's Pit.

No problem. It's all in fun.