Official Lance Armstrong Thread **READ POST #1 BEFORE POSTING**

[Anonymous]

Bjarne's last ditch effort to sway CAS is laughable harhar.
Can't blame him though. It's his job. Bread and butter.

BTW Lance is more relevant than Bjarne and Alberto combined. Use any metric of relevancy and Lance stomps them. Not a level playing field. Duh.
More relevant globally. In the USA. In Spain. Everywhere. Space station.

Of course Lance is more AWESOME than Bjarne and Alberto combined too.
Over 10 times more awesome duh.
Bjarne's old mate Ullrich is more awesome than Alberto.

History will remember Lance as a Campanissimo.
Bjarne and Bang Bang as obscure footnotes. Sorry.

Everyone will remember Armstrong for what he is.
Junkie liar. Every junky's like a setting sun.

I've seen the needle and the damage done.
Neil Young said it best. "Bang bang" is junky talk.
Think like your hero.

 

[thehog]

Hamilton is telling Landis' story. His handing back of the medal he won and the new fleshy story for 60 Minutes, all the timing from a good strategist. Just as Armstrong was angry at the timing of the Flandis announcement at the ToC. In both cases the sudden internal karma clock went off when both men would get the most exposure from association w Armstrong. These clowns have and will continue to live off all things Armstrong. or maybe Landis will be a break through 45 year old Nascar driver. Maybe Hamilton will go on the hotdog circuit around Colorado, RedBull is probably looking for a middle aged man to do a crazy old school helicopter on a big jump.

Alas Lance was making a nice living of Ty & Floyd for a number of years. Nothing wrong with old mates looking for payback. Armstrong was the clown not taking care of guys who took the bullets on his behalf.

 

[MarkvW]

Could someone in the audience with legal experience please provide some comment on the FBI investigation as it relates to LA.

Specifically, are there certain parameters, legal requirements or endpoints that need to be fulfilled in order to continue on with a case such as this?

If certain facts, statements, levels of evidence are not brought forth or obtained can the case be dismissed and does the FBI 'have' to make a statement when the case is closed? Are there certain time-restraints or 'achievements' needed to continue with a case?

NW

Federal investigators can make a statement clearing a person (like they did when they cleared Richard Jewell of Eric Rudolph's bombings), but there is no specific obligation to do so. Jewell got cleared because the feds wanted to make it right (and minimize their liability for all the harm they caused an innocent man). That is extremely rare, though.

You are not likely to see any announcement that the investigation of Lance Armstrong is "over." Even when they exonerated Jewell (the ultimate innocent guy), they still included qualifying language in their statement that did not foreclose the possibility of further investigation if new evidence was developed.

You never see the feds announce that they are ending an investigation of an international drug trafficker, for example.

The investigation can go on as long as the United States Attorney wants it to go on. We invest our law enforcement officers with discretion. Courts intervene only in the rarest of cases. Ultimately, the elected official (the President) is accountable at the polls for the acts of his Cabinet. Cops can play hunches, in other words.

The word "case" is really ambiguous. It can mean a lot of things. For me, the case starts when charges are brought into the court. I call the stuff happening beforehand "investigation," but many people use the term "case" to cover pre-charging investigation also. At any event, you have to split your analysis into the "preaccusatorial" and "postaccusatorial" parts.

A subject of an investigation has little power to mess with a properly conducted federal investigation. He can invoke his 5th Amendment right to remain silent, he can challenge subpoenas that are sufficiently connected to him, he can seek to enjoin search warrants (practically very difficult), and he can seek to enjoin unreasonably harassing investigative behavior (very unusual). We can also add that he can seek protection from the courts from grand jury leaks (if he can meet his burden of proof). I can't think of much else.

Once an indictment is returned (starting the postaccusatorial phase), however, all the rules of federal criminal procedure and the Constitution are available to protect he accused because (a) the accused's freedom is subject to pretrial limitation; and (b) the accused can be punished if convicted. There are tools available to test the evidence only in the post accusatorial phase,and they are substantial. There's no point in talking about Lance's post-indictment rights now. The likelihood or unlikelihood of an indictment is unknown.

"Dismissal" is solely a postaccusatorial event.

An investigation can go on forever, but the feds are not going to waste their time on crimes barred by the statute of limitations. For Lance, that excludes a wide array of potential crimes that could conceivably be charged, but for the statute of limitations.

The "achievement" that turns a person from a preaccusatorial suspect into the accused is the return of an indictment. An indictment is, simply put, the GJ's finding (at the fed's request) that the subject probably committed the charged crime--based on untested evidence. There is no other "achievement" relevant in the investigative (preaccusatorial) phase. Investigations can go on for decades (think D.B. Cooper), and investigators have great discretion.

 

[MarkvW]

Hamilton is telling Landis' story. His handing back of the medal he won and the new fleshy story for 60 Minutes, all the timing from a good strategist. Just as Armstrong was angry at the timing of the Flandis announcement at the ToC. In both cases the sudden internal karma clock went off when both men would get the most exposure from association w Armstrong. These clowns have and will continue to live off all things Armstrong. or maybe Landis will be a break through 45 year old Nascar driver. Maybe Hamilton will go on the hotdog circuit around Colorado, RedBull is probably looking for a middle aged man to do a crazy old school helicopter on a big jump.

That's pretty strained. Hamilton's giving up his gold medal because of Lance? Hamilton's demolishing what little is left of his soiled career because of Lance? For what? A prospect of a bike book in the USA?

Why would Tyler lie to a grand jury? To "get" Lance? Not likely.

Sorry, but the most coherent explanation is that Lance was the greatest doper of them all. He was the champion doper!

 

[Polish]

Everyone will remember Armstrong for what he is.
Junkie liar. Every junky's like a setting sun.

I've seen the needle and the damage done.
Neil Young said it best. "Bang bang" is junky talk.
Think like your hero.

Neil Young certainly said it better than Lobo.
That is why Neil Young is still relevant today.
The future too.
Hey Hey My My.

 

[Neworld]

Federal investigators can

Thank you, sounds reasonable, and suggests that this investigation could still be wide open and grinding along nicely.

Not sure what you meant by 'we' in this paragraph? Are you involved in the investigation or just a slip of tense? Thanks again.

NW

A subject of an investigation has little power to mess with a properly conducted federal investigation. He can invoke his 5th Amendment right to remain silent, he can challenge subpoenas that are sufficiently connected to him, he can seek to enjoin search warrants (practically very difficult), and he can seek to enjoin unreasonably harassing investigative behavior (very unusual). We can also add that he can seek protection from the courts from grand jury leaks (if he can meet his burden of proof). I can't think of much else.


There is no other "achievement" relevant in the investigative (preaccusatorial) phase. Investigations can go on for decades (think D.B. Cooper), and investigators have great discretion.

 

[Velodude]

Hamilton is telling Landis' story. His handing back of the medal he won and the new fleshy story for 60 Minutes, all the timing from a good strategist. Just as Armstrong was angry at the timing of the Flandis announcement at the ToC. In both cases the sudden internal karma clock went off when both men would get the most exposure from association w Armstrong. These clowns have and will continue to live off all things Armstrong. or maybe Landis will be a break through 45 year old Nascar driver. Maybe Hamilton will go on the hotdog circuit around Colorado, RedBull is probably looking for a middle aged man to do a crazy old school helicopter on a big jump.

Contingent upon a successful Federal prosecution of Armstrong & Co, Landis will profit as a whistleblower.

So how does Hamilton continue to financially thrive off poor LA and what is, as referred by yourself, Hamilton's commercial strategy related to 60 Minutes and his gold medal hand back?

 

[Neworld]

Neil Young certainly said it better than Lobo.
That is why Neil Young is still relevant today.
The future too.
Hey Hey My My.

I think the ONLY N. Young song relevant to Lance is "American Dream". There are so many similarities its painfully funny and expectant.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ABfsIInfXgU

"Reporters going through your garbage like a pack of hounds.
Speculating what they might find out.
It don't matter though...you're all washed up"

NW

 

[Anonymous]

Neil Young certainly said it better than Lobo.
That is why Neil Young is still relevant today.
The future too.
Hey Hey My My.

Sid Vicious said it better than anyone. "VVVVVVVV________________ hey Sid, wake up......Sid..."

 

[MarkvW]

Thank you, sounds reasonable, and suggests that this investigation could still be wide open and grinding along nicely.

Not sure what you meant by 'we' in this paragraph? Are you involved in the investigation or just a slip of tense? Thanks again.

NW

Nothing meant by we. Just meant the Clinic.

 

[jackwolf]

I think the ONLY N. Young song relevant to Lance is "American Dream". There are so many similarities its painfully funny and expectant.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ABfsIInfXgU

"Reporters going through your garbage like a pack of hounds.
Speculating what they might find out.
It don't matter though...you're all washed up"

NW

Neil Young, immense musical talent, but managed to make a fool out of himself in just five words. Talking about the Native American Indians in Cortez the killer:

"Hate was just a legend"

Then he added two more lines for good measure:

"And the women all were beautiful
[...]
War was never known"

Also managed to get himself in the lyrics of Sweet Home Alabama, one of the great songs of the last century:

"I hope Neil Young will remember
Southern man don't need him around"

Respect for him, though: he wrote a few musical masterpieces.

 

[Semper Fidelis]

I think in the first link that hog posted where he is responding to Landis' allegations that he is reeling and angry looking. He doesn't look like he had slept and looks quite unhealthy---he has sort of a flipped-out look in his face like he is seething but trying hard to act cool...weird body language.

Not the way you would expect a normal person to act if you were innocent, but his jaw looks tense and his face looks hard...although I don't think I've ever seen him when he looks like a relaxed and smiling character.

yup guilty from the video tape! Just like the power numbers that our pseudo scientist like to point out. It is much like cancer research in NYC .....not worth a shi!.

 

[Semper Fidelis]

I was being sarcastic. Sorry for the lack of emoticons.

So, FL will have a litmus test on who he pays back? What about the people that thought he was guilty but wanted to blow up the system? Could get pretty complicated; will people be required to take a polygraph test to see whether or not their motivation for contributions weren't solely their thinking he was innocent? I don't remember his qualifying his proclamation he would pay "everybody" back.

Back on the subject of LA, instead of this more complicated endeavor of figuring out who FL will pay back and what that basis will be, how was the UCI able to give LA protection with all of these other players like labs, etc. in the picture? Why did that lab have those positives if he has protection? Was there a breakdown in the system where he had to result to the publicly messy out like a backdated TUE?

How have all the other positives that the UCI squashed not ever leak from a staffer at Chatany Malaby, for example? Surely since that lab was public enemy number one for LA they had motivation not to play along with the UCI, don't you think? Especially if he is blatantly trying to discredit them all the time.

Chris you make me need a drink! Stiff one...not a beer just a highball.
Hey Tuesday is over still no New News. Oh well .... back to the video tape!

 

[mewmewmew13]

yup guilty from the video tape! Just like the power numbers that our pseudo scientist like to point out. It is much like cancer research in NYC .....not worth a shi!.

aw, c'mon Glenn_ get thee to a highball and find some humour!

I'm a body language expert

 

[Semper Fidelis]

aw, c'mon Glenn_ get thee to a highball and find some humour!

I'm a body language expert

Yes on my way! You pegged tha yellow rose dweller! Hehe

 

[patricknd]

Hey Tuesday is over still no New News. Oh well .... back to the video tape!

I have a source that says it's next tuesday

 

[jackwolf]

I have a source that says it's next tuesday

Ok, we'll have another drumroll then. Let me replace the snare drum, though; this one is almost completely worn out.

 

[fatandfast]

Watched HBO's Real Sports year in review. I hope Armstrong was watching when they had a segment on how all the college bowl games are non-profits. ESPN magazine had a big article about 5 thirty something college buddies that because they were against the BCS system for never including their favorite teams brought a couple of legal actions that exposed the absurdity of sports and non profits status.Football alone has had billions go through past and present all under the guise of a charity. Lance's financial f-ck ups are a drop in the bucket. His management or lack of it will not hurt him in any way. Watching just the HBO show puts Armstrong among 1000's of others that make lots of money, enemies and setbacks throughout the process. Armstrong if he is following the example of a bunch of other athletes, get as many Bandaids as possible and apply them until they run out,re-buy, repeat. The world is Novitzky's oyster everywhere he looks criminal athletes and the people behind them.

 

[mewmewmew13]

Watched HBO's Real Sports year in review. I hope Armstrong was watching when they had a segment on how all the college bowl games are non-profits. ESPN magazine had a big article about 5 thirty something college buddies that because they were against the BCS system for never including their favorite teams brought a couple of legal actions that exposed the absurdity of sports and non profits status.Football alone has had billions go through past and present all under the guise of a charity. Lance's financial f-ck ups are a drop in the bucket. His management or lack of it will not hurt him in any way. Watching just the HBO show puts Armstrong among 1000's of others that make lots of money, enemies and setbacks throughout the process. Armstrong if he is following the example of a bunch of other athletes, get as many Bandaids as possible and apply them until they run out,re-buy, repeat. The world is Novitzky's oyster everywhere he looks criminal athletes and the people behind them.

?????

 

[Ria1942]

LA and N

The drug issue in Europe isn't what LA faces. The charges include misuse of public funds, sale of gov property, fraud against gov. Entity by using substances that are cheating.
Did LA et al sell Postal service bikes?
Did LA use funds to buy any unauthorized substances
Did LA lie to Gov Officials
Did LA attempt to silence witnesses

I have no knowledge on which to base an opinion 0n the above areas of inquiry. I do have a sense that LA was as clean as anyone in that era.
Further even if he joined others in a doping culture--he still worked harder than other elite riders. My final comment. WE Punish the ones We Catch.

 

[Anonymous]

Another one, imagine.

 

[Polish]

The drug issue in Europe isn't what LA faces. The charges include misuse of public funds, sale of gov property, fraud against gov. Entity by using substances that are cheating.
Did LA et al sell Postal service bikes?
Did LA use funds to buy any unauthorized substances
Did LA lie to Gov Officials
Did LA attempt to silence witnesses

I have no knowledge on which to base an opinion 0n the above areas of inquiry. I do have a sense that LA was as clean as anyone in that era.
Further even if he joined others in a doping culture--he still worked harder than other elite riders. My final comment. WE Punish the ones We Catch.

Ria1942, welcome to the Clinic.
I do have a comment on your "Lance was as clean as anyone" in that era.
There were riders that WERE cleaner than Lance, BUT the fact remains that Lance was cleaner than many others. Many others were dirtier than Lance. Many many many were dirtier. Even some of his own team mates were dirtier. USPS team mates that were doping at the 1997 and 1998 TdF's. White Lunch Bags etc. Before Lance and Bruyneel even arrived. Another team mate had his "own people" in 2009 and 2010.

And the fact remains that Lance made efforts to clean up the sport of cycling after the EPO Era winded down in 2001. Where is the evidence of Lance doping in 2004 and 2005? The evidence shows the opposite. The evidence indicates that Lance was breaking omerta. Raising the flag Pre-Puerto. Making donations to the UCI for Sysmex Test Equipment. The hard evidence shows it.

RAI1942, be careful not to be sucked into the pretend world where the "Lance Investigation will last a Decade or more lol. There comes a time when you have to let it go.

 

[thehog]

Another one, imagine.

Yep here wee go. I hope some can restrain themselves from replying.

 

[BroDeal]

?????

I cannot make it out either. I think he occasionally gets drunk or wasted on something even stronger and posts stream of conscience style for as long as he can before passing out.

 

[MarkvW]

The drug issue in Europe isn't what LA faces. The charges include misuse of public funds, sale of gov property, fraud against gov. Entity by using substances that are cheating.
Did LA et al sell Postal service bikes?
Did LA use funds to buy any unauthorized substances
Did LA lie to Gov Officials
Did LA attempt to silence witnesses

I have no knowledge on which to base an opinion 0n the above areas of inquiry. I do have a sense that LA was as clean as anyone in that era.
Further even if he joined others in a doping culture--he still worked harder than other elite riders. My final comment. WE Punish the ones We Catch.

You just don't get it. It is important that Lance's TdF wins are "taken away" and awarded to his innocent victims: Zülle, Klöden, Beloki, Basso, and Ullrich. If those poor victims ever doped, it was only because Lance made them do it.