Paolini positive for cocaine

[fmk_RoI]

Re:

Many benzodiazepines aren't on WADA's list of banned substances

What are the benzodiazepines that are on the prohibited list?

 

[fmk_RoI]

Re: Re:

Well Mayomaniac was nice enough to answer my question. Hope you also got that. If you stick around long enough you might learn something.

I live for education. And hope yet to get it on the subject of benzodiazepines and the prohibited list.

What about the cocaine? Maybe you didn't have an answer for that but I'll try to help you.

Coke is only on the banned list in competition. Even if you dispute the story in the interview and contend he has had a long term coke problem, you're talking very low odds of popping a positive, no OOC tests counting, only IC (IIRC it was the fourth stage of the Tour he drew the short straw). Math alone - probability theory - is all you need to answer your question.

 

[May0maniac]

Re: Re:

Many benzodiazepines aren't on WADA's list of banned substances

What are the benzodiazepines that are on the prohibited list?

Sorry, apparently they aren't banned at all as long as you inform the testing body. I was only aware of the fact that a decent amount of them such as oxazepam and temazepam aren't banned by WADA.

 

[fmk_RoI]

Re: Re:

Sorry, apparently they aren't banned at all as long as you inform the testing body.

So they're covered by TUEs?

 

[Alex Simmons/RST]

Re: Re:

Sorry, apparently they aren't banned at all as long as you inform the testing body.

So they're covered by TUEs?

A TUE is not required for substances not covered by the prohibited list.

When giving a sample, it's a part of the paperwork process to provide details of all drugs and/or supplements that you are or have been taking. But not doing so for a non-prohibited drug would not result in an doping infraction. It just might not help you in the case of contaminated supplement defence to not have previously declared it.

Treatment for sleep disorders do have TUE guidelines though:
https://www.wada-ama.org/en/resources/therapeutic-use-exemption-tue/medical-information-to-support-the-decisions-of-tuecs-1

 

[WillemS]

Re: Re:

but in the long run benzodiazepines worsen the sleep patterns and significantly reduce deep sleep. but deep sleep is crucial for recovery - most growth-hormone releases in deep sleep at night. so if paoloni was 10ys! on it, where he got his growth hormone from?

Okay, typical clinic rolleyes.

Sleep patterns and stages are affected, yes, but that does not, automatically, mean that total GH secretion is reduced as well. For instance, Copinschi et al. (1990)* found that the use of triazolam did partially suppress sleep stages III and IV, but had no effect on the total amount of secreted Growth Hormone.

Now, studies like these are usually done with healthy participants that only take the drug for a short period, in this case 3 days. However, GH release peaks relatively early in sleep, in the first cycles through the deep sleep stages, so even with a lot of suppression of stage III+IV, usually occurring during late sleep, I don't think it's likely that GH release is severely reduced, even with a long-term abuse.

*) Copinschi, G. et al. (1990). Effects of the short-acting benzodiazepine triazolam, taken at bedtime, on circadian and sleep-related hormonal profiles in normal men. Sleep, 13(3), 232-244.

 

[Marco Pantani]

I believe him. Not a single word.

 

[glassmoon]

every time i hear those "confessions" or "admissions" i just have to laugh...

 

[London Hibs]

Re:

I believe him. Not a single word.

I concur.

High profile athlete tests positive and then "Took to Twitter soon after the positive was revealed to deny that he had ever taken cocaine and apologise for the incident." Only to spill the beans when all other avenues of denial are gone and the truth is about to come out.

He should get an additional suspension to any ban for telling a blatant falsehood. That's equally as galling as popping pills and snorting a line or two in my eyes.

Come clean when you're caught or else prepare to get 50% or so added to your time out of the sport.

 

[pastronef]

Quinziato defends Paolini

https://twitter.com/manuelquinziato/status/681191639470223361

I must say I feel for him (for his sleeping pills addiction) anyway he used cocaine, and got positive. a violation is a violation.

 

[fmk_RoI]

Katusha team doc Massimo Besnati adds more to the story:

I’d be Pinocchio if I said that doping has been defeated but now the use of sleeping medication is worse and more widely used.

 

[blackcat]

Re: Re:

Well Mayomaniac was nice enough to answer my question. Hope you also got that. If you stick around long enough you might learn something.

I live for education. And hope yet to get it on the subject of benzodiazepines and the prohibited list.

What about the cocaine? Maybe you didn't have an answer for that but I'll try to help you.

Coke is only on the banned list in competition. Even if you dispute the story in the interview and contend he has had a long term coke problem, you're talking very low odds of popping a positive, no OOC tests counting, only IC (IIRC it was the fourth stage of the Tour he drew the short straw). Math alone - probability theory - is all you need to answer your question.

well, if the "coke" metabolites that can be tested for only stay in the system for ~48 hours for the urine test

 

[Nilsson]

Re: Re:

well, if the "coke" metabolites that can be tested for only stay in the system for ~48 hours for the urine test

It's difficult to say. It totally depends on dosing, (semi-)chronic use and 'how low the testers go'. The 48 hours period, I think, is heavily influenced by standard (work-related/legal) cut-offs of 200-400 ng/ml for this specific metabolite. Theoretically is perfectly possible to take it to 10 or 1 ng/ml. And maybe they (can and will) go picogram-style as well. You can imagine it might have surprising effects for using cocaine OOC when tested for it in competition.

 

[blackcat]

Re: Re:

well, if the "coke" metabolites that can be tested for only stay in the system for ~48 hours for the urine test

It's difficult to say. It totally depends on dosing, (semi-)chronic use and 'how low the testers go'. The 48 hours period, I think, is heavily influenced by standard (work-related/legal) cut-offs of 200-400 ng/ml for this specific metabolite. Theoretically is perfectly possible to take it to 10 or 1 ng/ml. And maybe they (can and will) go picogram-style as well. You can imagine it might have surprising effects for using cocaine OOC when tested for it in competition.

yeah, was rule of thumb.

 

[Jancouver]

"On Monday Gazzetta dello Sport reported that the UCI had requested a two-year suspension for his cocaine positive case but the Italian is ready to fight his case during a UCI anti-doping tribunal hearing in the new year."

He admitted to coke and sleeping pills usage and yet he is ready to fight his case ... what am I missing?

 

[jens_attacks]

2 years for some coke. You miss that

Apparently gerva used to drink 6 big cups of coffee every morning to stay awake in the race. Probably it wasn't enough and he needed something stronger to make him get out of bed.

 

[May0maniac]

Sleeping pills make you feel like a zombie in the morning, so him drinking huge amounts of coffee to hide his addiction from the team isn't a huge surprise, the whole story is pretty sad.
About sleeping pills being the norm in a gt, that wouldn't surprise me, recovery is vital and with all the stories about crappy hotel rooms I can imagine that many riders use some extra help to get enough sleep durning a gt.

 

[fmk_RoI]

Weren't there stories about a recent Giro d'Italia winner on a 'clean' team having a thing for sleeping pills?

 

[thehog]

Re:

Sleeping pills make you feel like a zombie in the morning, so him drinking huge amounts of coffee to hide his addiction from the team isn't a huge surprise, the whole story is pretty sad.
About sleeping pills being the norm in a gt, that wouldn't surprise me, recovery is vital and with all the stories about crappy hotel rooms I can imagine that many riders use some extra help to get enough sleep durning a gt.

Uppers and downers has been the cycle since year dot, from cyclists to university studies. Picking the right downer is key in not having to use too many phets to come back up again. Stillnox has some horrible stories of sleep walking whilst drunk. Scary stuff. Temazepam is a better choice.

 

[Jacques de Molay]

Apparently gerva used to drink 6 big cups of coffee every morning to stay awake in the race.

The CN articles says nothing about "big" cups. It says...

He used coffee. He brought a little coffee machine to races and drank five or six cups before coming down to breakfast, 180-200mg of caffeine.

180-200mg? If that is supposed to be total amount from five to six "big cups," then it's the weakest coffee I've ever heard of. That would more likely be the amount from one large cup, or approx 16oz. But I doubt that Luca was downing what would need to be the equivalent of about 3/4 gallon (2.8 litres) of coffee every morning, which, if it were any sort of decent coffee, would then translate into nearly 1,000mg of caffeine if not more.

It's more likely referring to five or six espressos, which more makes sense on a cultural level, if nothing else. But if that were the case, then 180-200mg would be a very modest estimate for the total level of caffeine. Plenty of energy drinks on the market these days contain that much caffeine.

 

[thehog]

Apparently gerva used to drink 6 big cups of coffee every morning to stay awake in the race.

The CN articles says nothing about "big" cups. It says...

He used coffee. He brought a little coffee machine to races and drank five or six cups before coming down to breakfast, 180-200mg of caffeine.

180-200mg? If that is supposed to be total amount from five to six "big cups," then it's the weakest coffee I've ever heard of. That would more likely be the amount from one large cup, or approx 16oz. But I doubt that Luca was downing what would need to be the equivalent of about 3/4 gallon (2.8 litres) of coffee every morning.

It's more likely referring to five or six espressos, which more makes sense on a cultural level, if nothing else. But if that were the case, then 180-200mg would be a very modest estimate for the total level of caffeine. Plenty of energy drinks on the market these days contain that much caffeine.

Big cups / small cups doesn't actually matter except to the dilution levals. The mg armount is the same. The amount of water combined would make little difference apart from hydration.

 

[WillemS]

It's more likely referring to five or six espressos, which more makes sense on a cultural level, if nothing else. But if that were the case, then 180-200mg would be a very modest estimate for the total level of caffeine. Plenty of energy drinks on the market these days contain that much caffeine.

One single espresso shot (solo/30mL, not doppio/double) contains approximately 65mg of caffeine. Yes, that less than is in an average serving of filter coffee (~120mg of caffeine, depending on serving size and strength). So, with five to six shots you would ingest approximately 325-390mg of caffeine.

 

[Jacques de Molay]

Big cups / small cups doesn't actually matter except to the dilution levals. The mg armount is the same.

Under what circumstances?

The amount of water combined would make little difference apart from hydration.

The suggestion, from the above poster, was that Paolini was drinking "6 big cups" of coffee. That would be an unreasonable amount of liquid for one to ingest prior to a race. If you think that would make "little difference," then I would suggest you try consuming that much coffee and see how "athletic" you feel.

Although I did pose a question, further discussion on this topic should moved to the sidebar or a separate thread altogether. I'd be happy to continue, but not in this thread, and not until I return later today.

 

[Jacques de Molay]

One single espresso shot (solo/30mL, not doppio/double) contains approximately 65mg of caffeine. Yes, that less than is in an average serving of filter coffee (~120mg of caffeine, depending on serving size and strength). So, with five to six shots you would ingest approximately 325-390mg of caffeine.

Just seeing this.

Yes, which is why I considered 180-200mg to be a "very modest" estimate. I agree that it would likely be over 300mg total but many variables come into play, all of which make it difficult to determine a very specific level without actually testing the product in question.

But we really should take this to another thread.

 

[staubsauger]

Most likely it's 5 - 6 cups of Cafe lugno / cafe crema (~0.25 l) which is the standard coffee (not cafe/ espresso) in Italy and BeNeLux.

Not 5-6 pots of cafe americano / German Filterkaffee which is standard in America, Scandinavia, etc.

The difference is in strenght and taste mainly I believe? Not directly in the containing level of caffeine.

Dutch coffee tastes the best anyway.^^