Paul Kimmage

[veganrob]

Re: Re:

Yeah sure now. But before?

lolnope.

#NotNormal

Well yes but before Le Mond won his second Tour he had no form until the last time trial in the Giro..he didn't look like a champ at all during the race...things can change quickly in cycling..not commenting on Froome's credibility here just saying things aren't always clear cut...

Are you saying Lemond was a nobody before he won his second TdF.

 

[wendybnt]

Bit of a dead-end line of argument, this one.Lemond was junior World Champion at 19. Froome was.....errr

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Froome's amateur results. Nearly 19 in April 2004, 20 in November of 2005.

 

[Froomster]

Re:

Froome's amateur results. Nearly 19 in April 2004, 20 in November of 2005.

Whereas Greg LeMond:

- Won the first 11 races he entered as a 15 year old (Intermediate category).
- 2nd in Tour of Fresno (while still 15).
- 9th Junior World Championship road race (when 16).
- 1st Junior World Championship road race (when 17).
- 3rd (GC) Circuit des Ardennes (when 18).
- 1st Circuit de la Sarthe (still 18).
- Signed with Renault when 19, won a stage of Tour de l'Oise 3 months later.

The rest, as they say, is history and the vast, yawning, gut-churning gap between him and Froome was never clearer.

 

[Robert21]

Re:

Froome's amateur results. Nearly 19 in April 2004, 20 in November of 2005.

Ha Hilarious! So whilst Lemond was riding real races and becoming the world road race champion Froome was been given a kicking in sportives!

Edit. Sorry, thought I was reading the Froome thead!

 

[cnc-it]

Re: Paul Kimmage - Hero

Not really a good comparison..totally different eras in cycling and no info there on what training each rider was doing at the time..did Froome train at all before these races..?? Le Mond lived and trained at altitude..did Froome confused:

 

[pmcg76]

Re: Paul Kimmage - Hero

Not really a good comparison..totally different eras in cycling and no info there on what training each rider was doing at the time..did Froome train at all before these races..?? Le Mond lived and trained at altitude..did Froome confused:

So what would be a good comparison? Definitely not LeMond.

Look back through the history of sport and find riders who suddenly improved at a slighlty older age. We have the likes of Chiappucci, Indurain, Riis, Rominger, Armstrong etc. Not good for evidence to support Froome.

Before that I guess there was Rooks and Theunisse but really sudden transformations were very rare. Most talented riders showed that talent froma very young age. This is why people are more willing to believe in Quintana that Froome even though they are close to the same level climbing wise.

 

[flying_plum]

Re: Re:

Yeah sure now. But before?

lolnope.

#NotNormal

Well yes but before Le Mond won his second Tour he had no form until the last time trial in the Giro..he didn't look like a champ at all during the race...things can change quickly in cycling..not commenting on Froome's credibility here just saying things aren't always clear cut...

Surely you're kidding? LeMond was a star from the moment he started competing as a teenager.

I think he is specifically talking about LeMond's 1989 season - i.e. During the giro, there was no indication he was on form enough to win a second tour. Still not a great comparison, but I don't think he was saying LeMond's sucked until 1989 tour...

 

[42x16ss]

Re:

Btw Le Mond wasn't my example but as someone brought him up I would say that his method of preparing for the Tour was hardly scientific..battle through the Giro and hope for the best..not really a tailored scientific training program like they are using at Sky! If Froome is the phenomenon he is supposed to be then it's quite feasible he can better Le Mond's performances with a modern scientific training approach! An approach that Sky don't want to give away to the public and press even though Paul Kimmage has suggested they should do.

Actually Lemond was most certainly cutting edge for the time. After his brother in law filled him with buckshot he had to smarten up all aspects of his training. Lemond was one of THE very first adopters of power meter technology, utilising first generation SRMs in training. He selected his race days better, and periodised better than just about anyone from his generation.

Just to add, Froome was 26 when he broke through in 2011. His major results were:

1 stage 2009 Giro del Capo
2009 Anatomic Jock Race
2nd Overall 2008 Giro del Capo
1st 2007 Mi-Août Bretonne
1st Stage 5 2007 Giro delle Regioni (Under-23)
1st Stage 6 2007 Tour of Japan
1st 2006 Tour of Mauritius

By 25 Lemond had:

1977

1st National Road Race Champion (Junior)

1978

1st Overall Vuelta de Bisbee
2nd National Road Race (Junior)

1979
1st World Road Race Champion (Junior)
1st National Road Race Champion (Junior)
1st Nevada City Classic
2nd Individual Pursuit Junior World Championship

1980
1st Overall Circuit de la Sarthe
1st Nevada City Classic
3rd Overall, Circuit des Ardennes

1981
1st Overall Coors Classic
1st Stages 1 & 7
Tour de Picardie 1st Stages 2 & 2a
1st Nevada City Classic
3rd Overall Critérium du Dauphiné
3rd Overall Route du Sud

1982
1st Overall Tour de l'Avenir
1st Stages 4, 5 & 8
2nd UCI Road World Championships
2nd Overall Tour Méditerranéen
3rd Overall Tirreno–Adriatico
1st Stage 3

1983
1st World Road Race Champion
1st Overall Critérium du Dauphiné Libéré
1st Stages 1, 5 & 7b
1st Stage 1 Tour Méditerranéen
1st Super Prestige Pernod International
2nd GP des Nations
2nd Giro di Lombardia

1984
3rd Overall Tour de France
1st Young Rider Classification
3rd Overall Critérium du Dauphiné Libéré
1st Stage 7b
3rd Liège-Bastogne-Liège

1985
2nd Overall Tour de France
1st Stages 3 (TTT) & 21
1st Combination classification
2nd Points Classification
4th Mountains Classification
1st Overall Coors Classic
1st Stage 5
2nd UCI Road World Championships, Men
2nd Overall Vuelta Ciclista al País Vasco
3rd Overall Giro d'Italia
3rd Super Prestige Pernod International
4th Paris-Roubaix

1986
1st Overall Tour de France
1st Stage 13
1st Combination classification
4th Overall Giro d'Italia
1st Stage 5
3rd Overall Tour de Suisse
2nd Coors Classic
3rd Overall Paris–Nice
2nd Milano-San Remo
3rd Overall Critérium International
1st Stage 4 Volta a la Comunitat Valenciana
2nd Pernod-Super Prestige

This was also achieved against riders such as Hinault, Fignon, Kelly, Roche, Delgado, Millar, Herrera, Saronni, and Anderson. To compare the two is an insult to one of the best in the history of the sport. Give up this line of thought, you're embarrassing yourself.

Now, back to Kimmage.

 

[cnc-it]

Re: Re:

Btw Le Mond wasn't my example but as someone brought him up I would say that his method of preparing for the Tour was hardly scientific..battle through the Giro and hope for the best..not really a tailored scientific training program like they are using at Sky! If Froome is the phenomenon he is supposed to be then it's quite feasible he can better Le Mond's performances with a modern scientific training approach! An approach that Sky don't want to give away to the public and press even though Paul Kimmage has suggested they should do.

Actually Lemond was most certainly cutting edge for the time. After his brother in law filled him with buckshot he had to smarten up all aspects of his training. Lemond was one of THE very first adopters of power meter technology, utilising first generation SRMs in training. He selected his race days better, and periodised better than just about anyone from his generation.

Just to add, Froome was 26 when he broke through in 2011. His major results were:

1 stage 2009 Giro del Capo
2009 Anatomic Jock Race
2nd Overall 2008 Giro del Capo
1st 2007 Mi-Août Bretonne
1st Stage 5 2007 Giro delle Regioni (Under-23)
1st Stage 6 2007 Tour of Japan
1st 2006 Tour of Mauritius

By 25 Lemond had:

1977

1st National Road Race Champion (Junior)

1978

1st Overall Vuelta de Bisbee
2nd National Road Race (Junior)

1979
1st World Road Race Champion (Junior)
1st National Road Race Champion (Junior)
1st Nevada City Classic
2nd Individual Pursuit Junior World Championship

1980
1st Overall Circuit de la Sarthe
1st Nevada City Classic
3rd Overall, Circuit des Ardennes

1981
1st Overall Coors Classic
1st Stages 1 & 7
Tour de Picardie 1st Stages 2 & 2a
1st Nevada City Classic
3rd Overall Critérium du Dauphiné
3rd Overall Route du Sud

1982
1st Overall Tour de l'Avenir
1st Stages 4, 5 & 8
2nd UCI Road World Championships
2nd Overall Tour Méditerranéen
3rd Overall Tirreno–Adriatico
1st Stage 3

1983
1st World Road Race Champion
1st Overall Critérium du Dauphiné Libéré
1st Stages 1, 5 & 7b
1st Stage 1 Tour Méditerranéen
1st Super Prestige Pernod International
2nd GP des Nations
2nd Giro di Lombardia

1984
3rd Overall Tour de France
1st Young Rider Classification
3rd Overall Critérium du Dauphiné Libéré
1st Stage 7b
3rd Liège-Bastogne-Liège

1985
2nd Overall Tour de France
1st Stages 3 (TTT) & 21
1st Combination classification
2nd Points Classification
4th Mountains Classification
1st Overall Coors Classic
1st Stage 5
2nd UCI Road World Championships, Men
2nd Overall Vuelta Ciclista al País Vasco
3rd Overall Giro d'Italia
3rd Super Prestige Pernod International
4th Paris-Roubaix

1986
1st Overall Tour de France
1st Stage 13
1st Combination classification
4th Overall Giro d'Italia
1st Stage 5
3rd Overall Tour de Suisse
2nd Coors Classic
3rd Overall Paris–Nice
2nd Milano-San Remo
3rd Overall Critérium International
1st Stage 4 Volta a la Comunitat Valenciana
2nd Pernod-Super Prestige

This was also achieved against riders such as Hinault, Fignon, Kelly, Roche, Delgado, Millar, Herrera, Saronni, and Anderson. To compare the two is an insult to one of the best in the history of the sport. Give up this line of thought, you're embarrassing yourself.

Now, back to Kimmage.

Er..it wasn't me who brought up the Le Mond Froome comparison..I just carried on the discussion..please read back on the thread before you embarrass yourself... and then you can get back to Kimmage..

 

[cnc-it]

I just don't think Sky should have to open up and give data to the press, as Kimmage suggests in the radio interview, unless all teams do the same..and I don't see many of the other teams agreeing to that at the moment..

 

[42x16ss]

Re: Re:

Btw Le Mond wasn't my example but as someone brought him up I would say that his method of preparing for the Tour was hardly scientific..battle through the Giro and hope for the best..not really a tailored scientific training program like they are using at Sky! If Froome is the phenomenon he is supposed to be then it's quite feasible he can better Le Mond's performances with a modern scientific training approach! An approach that Sky don't want to give away to the public and press even though Paul Kimmage has suggested they should do.

Actually Lemond was most certainly cutting edge for the time. After his brother in law filled him with buckshot he had to smarten up all aspects of his training. Lemond was one of THE very first adopters of power meter technology, utilising first generation SRMs in training. He selected his race days better, and periodised better than just about anyone from his generation.

Just to add, Froome was 26 when he broke through in 2011. His major results were:

1 stage 2009 Giro del Capo
2009 Anatomic Jock Race
2nd Overall 2008 Giro del Capo
1st 2007 Mi-Août Bretonne
1st Stage 5 2007 Giro delle Regioni (Under-23)
1st Stage 6 2007 Tour of Japan
1st 2006 Tour of Mauritius

By 25 Lemond had:

1977

1st National Road Race Champion (Junior)

1978

1st Overall Vuelta de Bisbee
2nd National Road Race (Junior)

1979
1st World Road Race Champion (Junior)
1st National Road Race Champion (Junior)
1st Nevada City Classic
2nd Individual Pursuit Junior World Championship

1980
1st Overall Circuit de la Sarthe
1st Nevada City Classic
3rd Overall, Circuit des Ardennes

1981
1st Overall Coors Classic
1st Stages 1 & 7
Tour de Picardie 1st Stages 2 & 2a
1st Nevada City Classic
3rd Overall Critérium du Dauphiné
3rd Overall Route du Sud

1982
1st Overall Tour de l'Avenir
1st Stages 4, 5 & 8
2nd UCI Road World Championships
2nd Overall Tour Méditerranéen
3rd Overall Tirreno–Adriatico
1st Stage 3

1983
1st World Road Race Champion
1st Overall Critérium du Dauphiné Libéré
1st Stages 1, 5 & 7b
1st Stage 1 Tour Méditerranéen
1st Super Prestige Pernod International
2nd GP des Nations
2nd Giro di Lombardia

1984
3rd Overall Tour de France
1st Young Rider Classification
3rd Overall Critérium du Dauphiné Libéré
1st Stage 7b
3rd Liège-Bastogne-Liège

1985
2nd Overall Tour de France
1st Stages 3 (TTT) & 21
1st Combination classification
2nd Points Classification
4th Mountains Classification
1st Overall Coors Classic
1st Stage 5
2nd UCI Road World Championships, Men
2nd Overall Vuelta Ciclista al País Vasco
3rd Overall Giro d'Italia
3rd Super Prestige Pernod International
4th Paris-Roubaix

1986
1st Overall Tour de France
1st Stage 13
1st Combination classification
4th Overall Giro d'Italia
1st Stage 5
3rd Overall Tour de Suisse
2nd Coors Classic
3rd Overall Paris–Nice
2nd Milano-San Remo
3rd Overall Critérium International
1st Stage 4 Volta a la Comunitat Valenciana
2nd Pernod-Super Prestige

This was also achieved against riders such as Hinault, Fignon, Kelly, Roche, Delgado, Millar, Herrera, Saronni, and Anderson. To compare the two is an insult to one of the best in the history of the sport. Give up this line of thought, you're embarrassing yourself.

Now, back to Kimmage.

Er..it wasn't me who brought up the Le Mond Froome comparison..I just carried on the discussion..please read back on the thread before you embarrass yourself... and then you can get back to Kimmage..

It was directed at whoever brought it up as it is a stupid, inapt comparison. I'd just like the Sky banter where it belongs.

I also wanted to point out that Lemond's training methods were quite cutting edge for the time.

 

[thehook]

The thing that amuses me about SKY. Is they preach clean, transparency. They say Froome is a "talent". He just needed direction.

If Froome is so good.....Just release his data! If no one can beat him. Just show the world why he is so good.
IMHO. If I'm Froome. I drop every peice of Data, Stats, Tests, SRM#. EVERYTHING! So the Dam World knows I"M THE BOSS!

Don't hold your breath.

 

[QuizzicalSwin]

Fixed /images/smilies/thumbsup.gif

 

[heart_attack_man]

Has there been any update on how Kimmage went in court?

 

[observer]

if Froome really is the outlier that they claim him to be, then releasing his data would only dishearten his competitors.
If he has the watts / power / genius of braisford / best DS money can buy etc etc, then all the data and methods and anything else being released wouldn't change that. He'd still win.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Re:

if Froome really is the outlier that they claim him to be, then releasing his data would only dishearten his competitors.
If he has the watts / power / genius of braisford / best DS money can buy etc etc, then all the data and methods and anything else being released wouldn't change that. He'd still win.

And his placing in Argus Pick n Pay would not have essentially remained unchanged from age 19-21: outside the top 10.

 

[blackcat]

Re: Re:

And his placing in Argus Pick n Pay would not have essentially remained unchanged from age 19-21: outside the top 10.

you see DearWiggo, around 2008, when Brailsford is putting the scaffolding and infrastructure together for a nascent team, sure Sky were already lined up, Brailsford talked about Froome and his testing.

He DID.

He did indeed. And he mentioned Froome having the potential for GC and winning. This was circa 2008, after Froomes first two Barlo years and the debut at the Tour, which I think was impressive. Think he only started in 2008 on Barlo, anyway, my point, if not my memory, still stands.

And I did get on Froome, and looked over his results, and remembered his impressive first Tour in new light. And I know John Robertson's Barlo, they had a good "supplementation program" like all the other teams. Before Claudio Corti who whoever was the Saeco guy, came in and evicted Robertson in the putsch.

But the testing existed in British Cycling. I am not sure when the British citizenship and passport happened, but prolly around this time they put this plan into action.

I never went as far to really look at his racing in South Africa. I know they have those two tours, but one finished up around 2009ish, something like the Tinatech Tour, the name of the sponsor is not remembered correctly. Cant remember the other race, the older traditional tour. There is good racing and racers in South Africa.

But ofcourse there was a test, and it is around 08ish, maybe December 07ish, when Brailsford got him in from Aigle and the Le Monde Centre du Cyclisme or whatever the world cycling centre in Aigle is called

 

[Bronstein]

Re: Re:

you see DearWiggo, around 2008, when Brailsford is putting the scaffolding and infrastructure together for a nascent team, sure Sky were already lined up, Brailsford talked about Froome and his testing.

He DID.

He did indeed. And he mentioned Froome having the potential for GC and winning. This was circa 2008, after Froomes first two Barlo years and the debut at the Tour, which I think was impressive. Think he only started in 2008 on Barlo, anyway, my point, if not my memory, still stands.

Where did Brailsford talk about Froome's GC winning potential?

Finishing 81st on GC and in the grupetto on most of the mountain stages isn't impressive.

 

[TMP402]

Re: Re:

you see DearWiggo, around 2008, when Brailsford is putting the scaffolding and infrastructure together for a nascent team, sure Sky were already lined up, Brailsford talked about Froome and his testing.

He DID.

He did indeed. And he mentioned Froome having the potential for GC and winning. This was circa 2008, after Froomes first two Barlo years and the debut at the Tour, which I think was impressive. Think he only started in 2008 on Barlo, anyway, my point, if not my memory, still stands.

Where did Brailsford talk about Froome's GC winning potential?

Finishing 81st on GC and in the grupetto on most of the mountain stages isn't impressive.

The Italian DS at Barloworld also allegedly said he could podium the TDF. Don't have a source for you though.

 

[42x16ss]

Re: Re:

you see DearWiggo, around 2008, when Brailsford is putting the scaffolding and infrastructure together for a nascent team, sure Sky were already lined up, Brailsford talked about Froome and his testing.

He DID.

He did indeed. And he mentioned Froome having the potential for GC and winning. This was circa 2008, after Froomes first two Barlo years and the debut at the Tour, which I think was impressive. Think he only started in 2008 on Barlo, anyway, my point, if not my memory, still stands.

Where did Brailsford talk about Froome's GC winning potential?

Finishing 81st on GC and in the grupetto on most of the mountain stages isn't impressive.

The Italian DS at Barloworld also allegedly said he could podium the TDF. Don't have a source for you though.

Claudio Corti? That guy is one of the biggest clusterf&@ks in world cycling. Just saying...

 

[blackcat]

Re: Re:

you see DearWiggo, around 2008, when Brailsford is putting the scaffolding and infrastructure together for a nascent team, sure Sky were already lined up, Brailsford talked about Froome and his testing.

He DID.

He did indeed. And he mentioned Froome having the potential for GC and winning. This was circa 2008, after Froomes first two Barlo years and the debut at the Tour, which I think was impressive. Think he only started in 2008 on Barlo, anyway, my point, if not my memory, still stands.

Where did Brailsford talk about Froome's GC winning potential?

Finishing 81st on GC and in the grupetto on most of the mountain stages isn't impressive.

The Italian DS at Barloworld also allegedly said he could podium the TDF. Don't have a source for you though.

I never read Corti, nor South African DS/Manager/Owner John Robertson talk about vroom in this way.

 

[blackcat]

Re: Re:

if Froome really is the outlier that they claim him to be, then releasing his data would only dishearten his competitors.
If he has the watts / power / genius of braisford / best DS money can buy etc etc, then all the data and methods and anything else being released wouldn't change that. He'd still win.

And his placing in Argus Pick n Pay would not have essentially remained unchanged from age 19-21: outside the top 10.

could not even reach the podium in an amateur mass-start gran fondo in South Africa in 2004?

that. that is an indictment.

 

[blackcat]

so Dear Wiggo, by deduction, Froome is a pretty good responder, and a chemical alien innit

 

[Dear Wiggo]

so Dear Wiggo, by deduction, Froome is a pretty good responder, and a chemical alien innit

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