Power Data Estimates for the climbing stages

[roundabout]

rolling resistance must be less than 5% of the total power requirement so you are arguing just for the sake of it once again

 

[Alex Simmons/RST]

Re:

rolling resistance must be less than 5% of the total power requirement so you are arguing just for the sake of it once again

I'd say it'd be more like 10% on those unsealed roads, speeds and gradients. 5% is about right for a paved road in reasonable condition.

 

[The_Cheech]

Re:

Dude, just because your body fat % is lowering, it doesn't mean that you're actually losing fat mass. It just means that you're increasing your fat-free mass in a proportion that makes your fat mass % decrease. It's a question of mathematics. Copy that?

You have no idea what you're talking about. No clue.

Took me two comments to expose you.

And by the way, just for the sake of the argument, after every workout the muscles you worked out will appear, well, "bulked". It's actually called pump and it's nothing more than an increase of blood running through the veins of your exercised muscles. After 3/4 hours they will return to normal. Your muscles don't grow right after exercise, but only after proper nutrition and rest.

I'm not talking about a pump. I'm talking about a 10-15 body fat loss combined with a 10 pound muscle mass gain in a little over a year.

It's very easy to understand.

 

[lenric]

Yeah, it must be that... whatever suits yourself mate, kudos for you

 

[Dr.Guess]

Nice record by Aru though. How was the 2005 Sestrierre stage? (In terms of tacticts and weather, seeing as Simoni was there etc. How old was he by then too?)
http://www.climbing-records.com/

 

[oncehadhair]

Re:

It's impossible to lose fat mass and gain muscle mass at the same time. To win muscle mass, you must be on a caloric surplus, since that's the only way of putting on weight. To loose fat mass, you must be on a caloric deficit.

It is, however, possible to loose fat mass relatively, as in, if you maintain your fat mass and increase your muscle mass, your fat mass % will go down. If, on the other hand, you loose more fat mass than muscle mass, your fat mass % will go down as well.

There are scientific studies demonstrating increase in muscle mass while losing weight overall. You need sufficient protein in the diet and weight training that includes resistance exercises.

Anecdotal evidence (ie. what has happened with you or your friend) isn't worth a pinch of sh*t.

And you don't loose weight you lose it.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Re: Re:

It's impossible to lose fat mass and gain muscle mass at the same time. To win muscle mass, you must be on a caloric surplus, since that's the only way of putting on weight. To loose fat mass, you must be on a caloric deficit.

It is, however, possible to loose fat mass relatively, as in, if you maintain your fat mass and increase your muscle mass, your fat mass % will go down. If, on the other hand, you loose more fat mass than muscle mass, your fat mass % will go down as well.

There are scientific studies demonstrating increase in muscle mass while losing weight overall. You need sufficient protein in the diet and weight training that includes resistance exercises.

Anecdotal evidence (ie. what has happened with you or your friend) isn't worth a pinch of sh*t.

And you don't loose weight you lose it.

Would you happen to have any links to said studies? please?

 

[May0maniac]

Re:

Nice record by Aru though. How was the 2005 Sestrierre stage? (In terms of tacticts and weather, seeing as Simoni was there etc. How old was he by then too?)
http://www.climbing-records.com/

32°and only Gibo and Rujano at the front after Di Luca cramped on the descent. Rujano dropped Gibo after he realised that he was weak but 48kg Rujano shouldn't be able to hold the record on a power climb like Sestriere and you have to consider the fact that this year we had a group that was working together before the caught Landa, after that Landa did almost all the work until he was spent.

 

[VayaVayaVaya]

Wow, so Landa and Aru climbed significantly faster than AC and co did in 2011, too. AC was super strong then.

 

[lenric]

Re: Re:

It's impossible to lose fat mass and gain muscle mass at the same time. To win muscle mass, you must be on a caloric surplus, since that's the only way of putting on weight. To loose fat mass, you must be on a caloric deficit.

It is, however, possible to loose fat mass relatively, as in, if you maintain your fat mass and increase your muscle mass, your fat mass % will go down. If, on the other hand, you loose more fat mass than muscle mass, your fat mass % will go down as well.

There are scientific studies demonstrating increase in muscle mass while losing weight overall. You need sufficient protein in the diet and weight training that includes resistance exercises.

Anecdotal evidence (ie. what has happened with you or your friend) isn't worth a pinch of sh*t.

And you don't loose weight you lose it.

If you show me studies proving that it's possible to be, simultaneously, in a catabolic and anabolic state then it's ok, otherwise your words are simply, as you put it, a "pinch of ***".
Thanks for the correction man by the way, but you're still lacking what matters the most, as in, arguments to sustain your words. Once you back them up, I'll respect your opinion, otherwise I'll keep laughing. Kudos

 

[Dr.Guess]

Re: Re:

Nice record by Aru though. How was the 2005 Sestrierre stage? (In terms of tacticts and weather, seeing as Simoni was there etc. How old was he by then too?)
http://www.climbing-records.com/

32°and only Gibo and Rujano at the front after Di Luca cramped on the descent. Rujano dropped Gibo after he realised that he was weak but 48kg Rujano shouldn't be able to hold the record on a power climb like Sestriere and you have to consider the fact that this year we had a group that was working together before the caught Landa, after that Landa did almost all the work until he was spent.

Thanks. Always nice with some stories to the stats.

 

[oncehadhair]

Re: Re:

It's impossible to lose fat mass and gain muscle mass at the same time. To win muscle mass, you must be on a caloric surplus, since that's the only way of putting on weight. To loose fat mass, you must be on a caloric deficit.

It is, however, possible to loose fat mass relatively, as in, if you maintain your fat mass and increase your muscle mass, your fat mass % will go down. If, on the other hand, you loose more fat mass than muscle mass, your fat mass % will go down as well.

There are scientific studies demonstrating increase in muscle mass while losing weight overall. You need sufficient protein in the diet and weight training that includes resistance exercises.

Anecdotal evidence (ie. what has happened with you or your friend) isn't worth a pinch of sh*t.

And you don't loose weight you lose it.

If you show me studies proving that it's possible to be, simultaneously, in a catabolic and anabolic state then it's ok, otherwise your words are simply, as you put it, a "pinch of ****".
Thanks for the correction man by the way, but you're still lacking what matters the most, as in, arguments to sustain your words. Once you back them up, I'll respect your opinion, otherwise I'll keep laughing. Kudos

Well so far you haven't supplied any reputable evidence to support what you've said. Your own or your friends experience have no credibility without a control - or repetition.

To be fair you are partly right in that you can't be in a catabolic state and an anabolic state at the same moment in time but over the period of a day can be using energy (and losing weight) and laying down muscle.

Here are results of two studies. One shows muscle mass increase while overall weight loss. The other shows a maintenance of muscle mass with weight loss.
http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/47/1/19.full.pdf+html
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3159052/

So where's your evidence?

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Re: Re:

Here are results of two studies. One shows muscle mass increase while overall weight loss. The other shows a maintenance of muscle mass with weight loss.
http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/47/1/19.full.pdf+html
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3159052/

So where's your evidence?

His evidence is your second study yeah?

As for your first study, what does the following mean, if not what he's been saying all along?

The increase of 0.43 kg in LBW for the DPE group is
comparable to the largest increases reported in other diet-plus-exercise studies. Zuti and Golding (5) and Lewis et al (27) report LBW increases of 0.5
and 1.1 kg over 16 and 17 wk, respectively. This is in contrast to most diet-
plus-exercise studies that report losses of LBW even with
the addition of exercise (4, 6, 28, 29)

 

[oncehadhair]

Re: Re:

Here are results of two studies. One shows muscle mass increase while overall weight loss. The other shows a maintenance of muscle mass with weight loss.
http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/47/1/19.full.pdf+html
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3159052/

So where's your evidence?

His evidence is your second study yeah?

As for your first study, what does the following mean, if not what he's been saying all along?

The increase of 0.43 kg in LBW for the DPE group is
comparable to the largest increases reported in other diet-plus-exercise studies. Zuti and Golding (5) and Lewis et al (27) report LBW increases of 0.5
and 1.1 kg over 16 and 17 wk, respectively. This is in contrast to most diet-
plus-exercise studies that report losses of LBW even with
the addition of exercise (4, 6, 28, 29)

You're clutching at straws. The original poster claimed that it wasn't possible to lose weight while increasing muscle mass. Evidence (peer-reviewed scientific type) says you can.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Re: Re:

Here are results of two studies. One shows muscle mass increase while overall weight loss. The other shows a maintenance of muscle mass with weight loss.
http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/47/1/19.full.pdf+html
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3159052/

So where's your evidence?

His evidence is your second study yeah?

As for your first study, what does the following mean, if not what he's been saying all along?

The increase of 0.43 kg in LBW for the DPE group is
comparable to the largest increases reported in other diet-plus-exercise studies. Zuti and Golding (5) and Lewis et al (27) report LBW increases of 0.5
and 1.1 kg over 16 and 17 wk, respectively. This is in contrast to most diet-
plus-exercise studies that report losses of LBW even with
the addition of exercise (4, 6, 28, 29)

You're clutching at straws. The original poster claimed that it wasn't possible to lose weight while increasing muscle mass. Evidence (peer-reviewed scientific type) says you can.

And most peer reviewed scientific studies say you don't.

Right?

I mean that is what that sentence says, yes?

So your demand for evidence is provided by your own evidence, correct?

 

[Dear Wiggo]

I mean. Peer reviewed science says cycling efficiency improves in elite cyclists like Lance Armstrong - but uh yeah well you can't believe everything you read, you know. Even if it's "peer-reviewed science".

 

[oncehadhair]

Re: Re:

Here are results of two studies. One shows muscle mass increase while overall weight loss. The other shows a maintenance of muscle mass with weight loss.
http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/47/1/19.full.pdf+html
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3159052/

So where's your evidence?

His evidence is your second study yeah?

As for your first study, what does the following mean, if not what he's been saying all along?

The increase of 0.43 kg in LBW for the DPE group is
comparable to the largest increases reported in other diet-plus-exercise studies. Zuti and Golding (5) and Lewis et al (27) report LBW increases of 0.5
and 1.1 kg over 16 and 17 wk, respectively. This is in contrast to most diet-
plus-exercise studies that report losses of LBW even with
the addition of exercise (4, 6, 28, 29)

You're clutching at straws. The original poster claimed that it wasn't possible to lose weight while increasing muscle mass. Evidence (peer-reviewed scientific type) says you can.

And most peer reviewed scientific studies say you don't.

Right?

I mean that is what that sentence says, yes?

So your demand for evidence is provided by your own evidence, correct?

The increase in lean body weight. You don't understand the word increase?

The original poster claimed an increase was impossible. This study says it is. Not the norm, no. But I didn't ever claim it was.

There are other studies out there if you care to spend a little time searching the science instead of looking for phrases to quote out of context.

 

[meat puppet]

Sorry for interrupting this digress but 1) at least I made my comment thinking we were talking about top athletes in Gt conditions and 2) von mises also corrected his original point about what kangert said.

Regarding 1) I am not buying that already very lean top athletes could gain significant muscle mass while doing ca 5hrs of endurance efforts per day for three weeks.

If this was so, pro cyclists would bulk up just by training a lot.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Re:

Sorry for interrupting this digress but 1) at least I made my comment thinking we were talking about top athletes in Gt conditions and 2) von mises also corrected his original point about what kangert said.

Regarding 1) I am not buying that already very lean top athletes could gain significant muscle mass while doing ca 5hrs of endurance efforts per day for three weeks.

If this was so, pro cyclists would bulk up just by training a lot.

Yes in the context of the discussion this would seem to be discussing elite male athletes - not obese women.

 

[mihhint]

I know this thread is mostly for power data on climbing stages. But I'm wondering for context, what kind of average W/kg numbers would you expect from, let's say 12 minute max effort climb at the end of a training camp, from world class riders?

 

[mihhint]

Anyways I was asking since Taaramäe updated on his facebook yesterday that he will do the Suisse, that the big tour training camp with the team went well and he is feeling pretty good etc. And that his morale also got a nice boost last day by setting a record on some climb they tend to do there, pulling 480w in a 12 min climb etc. But I don't know too much about numbers like that, so I was just wondering if climbing at around ~7.2W/kg during build-up is promising enough to expect some solid domestique work during the Tour by him, or not worth that much.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Yeah that seems pretty elite.

 

[The_Cheech]

Re: Re:

Anecdotal evidence (ie. what has happened with you or your friend) isn't worth a pinch of sh*t.

Lol. What? My man, there's an entire industry devoted to the lose bodyfat/gain muscle crowd. Go to a gym, all you have to do is look around.

If you rather wait until a bunch of sttuffed suits decide to carry out a study, be my guest.

Guess what, studies used to shown that eggs are bad for folks with high cholesterol levels. This month they're showing that they may not be that bad. I wonder what they will show next month.

 

[Rollthedice]

Re:

Anyways I was asking since Taaramäe updated on his facebook yesterday that he will do the Suisse, that the big tour training camp with the team went well and he is feeling pretty good etc. And that his morale also got a nice boost last day by setting a record on some climb they tend to do there, pulling 480w in a 12 min climb etc. But I don't know too much about numbers like that, so I was just wondering if climbing at around ~7.2W/kg during build-up is promising enough to expect some solid domestique work during the Tour by him, or not worth that much.

First hint at the power of Astana's A team. Can't wait to see them at work in France.

 

[Escarabajo]

Re:

Anyways I was asking since Taaramäe updated on his facebook yesterday that he will do the Suisse, that the big tour training camp with the team went well and he is feeling pretty good etc. And that his morale also got a nice boost last day by setting a record on some climb they tend to do there, pulling 480w in a 12 min climb etc. But I don't know too much about numbers like that, so I was just wondering if climbing at around ~7.2W/kg during build-up is promising enough to expect some solid domestique work during the Tour by him, or not worth that much.

Astana is probably preparing the terrain for big surprises!