Power Outputs Contador & Wiggins

[A moron]

I have no disillusion of Wiggins or any top rider or any professional athlete what so ever being clean but comparing him to Kohl or saying that he came out of nowhere is simply moronic.

Ok, so I'm being a moron in saying he finished the 2005 Giro as 123rd, the TdF 2006 as 124th and the Giro 2008 as 134th!
So, 3rd place sounds very reasonable to me...

 

[Escarabajo]

Ok, so I'm being a moron in saying he finished the 2005 Giro as 123rd, the TdF 2006 as 124th and the Giro 2008 as 134th!
So, 3rd place sounds very reasonable to me...

Those GT placings are very telling. You could explain one. Maybe the one from the Giro in which he was good at the beginning but then faded away just to be fresh at the tour. But to consistently place so far back is very confusing.

Time will tell, maybe.

 

[Super Guanche]

That's weird. I was just checking back on his old posts to call him out on being a BS artist and while I was doing so he was banned.

 

[Anonymous]

Those GT placings are very telling. You could explain one. Maybe the one from the Giro in which he was good at the beginning but then faded away just to be fresh at the tour. But to consistently place so far back is very confusing.

Time will tell, maybe.

and again and again weve gone over the fact that in several of those years road was NOT his priority, track was... Wether he is clean or doping, you cannot compare years where brad was racing on the track, including world championships and the olympics to one where he has deveoted his entire season to the road..

its light comparing a part time worker with a full time one.. so wether you think he is doping or not, you still have to pay attention to the fact that for the last for years he has basically been semi pro.. its incomparable..

 

[Escarabajo]

and again and again weve gone over the fact that in several of those years road was NOT his priority, track was... Wether he is clean or doping, you cannot compare years where brad was racing on the track, including world championships and the olympics to one where he has deveoted his entire season to the road..

its light comparing a part time worker with a full time one.. so wether you think he is doping or not, you still have to pay attention to the fact that for the last for years he has basically been semi pro.. its incomparable..

Fair enough.

I don't know the implications of going from track to road.

 

[Frosty]

In the Giro 2008 he was working for Cavendish. So he took it easy on the mountains. There were also quite a few stages where there was a hill towards the end that Cav got dropped on and Wiggins stayed with him. Not sure about the earlier tour/giro but maybe something similar there?

 

[Anonymous]

In the Giro 2008 he was working for Cavendish. So he took it easy on the mountains. There were also quite a few stages where there was a hill towards the end that Cav got dropped on and Wiggins stayed with him. Not sure about the earlier tour/giro but maybe something similar there?

+1

another very good point...

2006 he was brought in to try and win the prologue/timetrial nothing else..

 

[elapid]

This then begs the question, if a clean Wiggins can maintain his power and his TT ability and improve his climbing to be up there with the best in the world by losing some weight, what makes anyone believe that Contador cannot do the same thing clean as well? I know he has been implicated in OP, but that was three years ago now. Contador has always been a top cyclist, including a superb climber and a very good TTer, and he is small and light.

 

[Anonymous]

because when alberto went up that hill, he left EVERYONE behind...

And all i could think of was Ricco in the giro last year.. intuition just tells me something is amiss

 

[elapid]

But Contador has always done this. His acceleration on steeper grades has been his trademark. I am not saying he does or does not dope, but the arguments some are using about Wiggins equally apply to Contador. Low body weight-good climber, good maintenance of power-good TTer. While there are many explanations for Wiggins sudden rise to prominence as a GC contender, and all of them valid, those same explanations apply to Contador, except he has always been a great stage racer.

 

[Parrot23]

Does BMI bear any relevance here if we don't know what a rider's WATTS/kg are, ie. say Wiggo is at least bringing his his BMI down toward Contador's levels? (At least we know height, if not weights so accurately).

Perhaps we could list riders' BMIs, then use their known TT performances as a proxy for raw power in estimating climbing "potential" in the absence of SRM data, etc. Maybe it's another way at the problem.

If some guy's BMI is going down (eg. Horner or Wiggo's) and his TT rankings in races stay largely unchanged, then improved climbing shouldn't be a surprise.

Escarabajo, any ideas here?

 

[Escarabajo]

Does BMI bear any relevance here if we don't know what a rider's WATTS/kg are, ie. say Wiggo is at least bringing his his BMI down toward Contador's levels? (At least we know height, if not weights so accurately).

Perhaps we could list riders' BMIs, then use their known TT performances as a proxy for raw power in estimating climbing "potential" in the absence of SRM data, etc. Maybe it's another way at the problem.

If some guy's BMI is going down (eg. Horner or Wiggo's) and his TT rankings in races stay largely unchanged, then improved climbing shouldn't be a surprise.

Escarabajo, any ideas here?

For Contador I have:

height: 1.76 m, weight: 61 Kg, BMI= 19.69

For Wiggins I have:

Height: 1.89 m, weight: 76 Kg, BMI= 21.28
weight:71 Kg, BMI= 19.88

It means that if Wiggins weight is actualy 71 Kg, then he is almost as lean as Contador based on BMI. You have a good point.

Maybe somebody else will tell us more in detail about the BMI usage. I have never heard of using it for the purpose that you are saying. I am sure that the DS pay attention to the BMI but I am not sure if they have like prediction charts for future reference in climbing performance. Note that not many riders of the size of Wiggins are as good climbers as he is showing to be. So there would not be a lot of data anyway for that category.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Body_mass_index

 

[elapid]

Interesting weights. Earlier in the thread someone mentioned something to the effect that Wiggins was fat, or must have been to lose that much weight. I am the same height as Contador and at my lightest weighed 70 kg. I was skeletal and everyone was worried about me. Contador is apparently 9 kg lighter - OMG! There's skinny and then there is cyclist skinny.

 

[slcbiker]

BMI is a relevant measurement only in looking at statistically large groups of people. It's not particularly useful when looking at individuals, particularly not in very fit athletes.

 

[runninboy]

because when alberto went up that hill, he left EVERYONE behind...

And all i could think of was Ricco in the giro last year.. intuition just tells me something is amiss

+1
I believe Wiggins is clean, but he went from a position of world class pursuiter lost weight quickly to be a much more efficient climber. He really cant drop any more weight & retain power.In a way he is the best he could possibly be at this moment After a pretty conservative & restful tour he was at his limit on the climb.
and yet alberto just motors away, in 5 km he gains a huge amount of time.
I just cannot look at those two riders and logically come to the conclusion that AC is clean. Wiggins yes, he was suffering trying to limit his losses.
Look at the small differences between the other riders, a few seconds here & there. Andy Schleck had a little more mainly because when he attacked it was too close to Contadors attack for Astana to follow.
Just judging on instincts I would say AC dirty, Amstrong dirty, Wiggins clean, Sastre clean

 

[craig1985]

Yeah, a Brit would never dope. Spaniards on the other hand...doped to the eyeballs.

If only Contador would have ridden on the track, then we could put his performance down to concentrating on the road and a little weight loss.

Because Wiggins has never been implicated in anything, pulled no punches on his anti doping stance (then again that doesn't mean anything) and lost a lot of weight. So people will give him the benefit of the doubt for now, unlike Contador who has either ridden for Sainz or Bruyneel in his career and was implicated in OP and was apparently cleared by the Spanish Fed (not that I rate the Spanish Fed highly) but to the best of my knowledge there is a 'AC' still sitting on the files.

But that is what I think.

 

[hmronnow]

Interesting weights. Earlier in the thread someone mentioned something to the effect that Wiggins was fat, or must have been to lose that much weight. I am the same height as Contador and at my lightest weighed 70 kg. I was skeletal and everyone was worried about me. Contador is apparently 9 kg lighter - OMG! There's skinny and then there is cyclist skinny.

What I find interesting is that Contador is not that skinny (which is part of explanation why he TTs better than Schleck). Examples of skinny cyclists are:
Pantani: 56/1.72^2=18.9
Schleck: 66/1.86^2=19.1

(wikipedia gives 57kg for Pantani, but many other googe hits state 56kg. I wouldn't be surprised if sometimes he was even lower. Wikipedia gives 67kg for schleck, but to me he looks more trim than before, so I ad hoc estimate 66kg. At 67kg, he'd be 19.4.)

Now, these guys are skinny, but not unnatural or even unhealthy. These are the BMI ranges (see e.g. wikipedia):
<18.5 underweight
18.5-25 Normal
25-30 Overweight
>30 Obese

70kg at 1.76m is far from skinny - it is in the middle of the normal range.

To give you an idea, in my early twenties, I had 61/1.79^2=19.0. This corresponds to clearly visible ribs and about 4mm between the fingers if you pinch your stomach fat. Since then, I spent a decade ice-climbing and mountaineering, putting on upper body muscles and some fat. I now have 65/1.79^2=20.3. This corresponds to faintly visible ribs and 10mm stomach pinch. (I use myself as example only because I don't have access to this info for other male athletes)

What BMI does not reflect is th edistribution of muscles. for cycling uphill, upper body muscles weigh you down. If you compare images of contador and schleck, the latter apear to have much skinnier arms.

Concerning 'normal' people, americans average high on the BMI scale not only because many americans are overweight and obese, but also because among healthy fit americans 'hitting the gym' i.e. doing strength workout (including building various upper-body muscles) is much more comon than in europe. So even fit americans often end up with BMI>22.

 

[elapid]

The one flaw with BMI, particularly for the general population, is it is too simplistic and does not take into account body build. I have a stocky build and 70 kg for me was extremely light despite the normal BMI. There is no way with my physique that I could get to 61 kg. Compare Contador to Lance. Both are a similar height, but Contador races at 61 kg and Lance at somewhere near 74-75 kg. Contador's BMI = 61/1.76^2 = 19.7; Lance's BMI = 75/1.77^2 = 23.9. Their BMIs are very different, but I would hardly call Lance fat. The difference between the two is body type.

Bill Strickland describes it well in his book "Ten Points" where he says that there is normal skinny and then there is cycling skinny. The two are very different.

 

[no_slipstream]

The power outputs do not seem too outrageous by BW, AC and LA.
The best climbs here are 22 kph, 6.8% for 19min, which gives 400W.
None of the long climbs are over 400w, so you would expect a TdF rider to pull 440w for 20-25 minutes, regardless of the hill. The only thing that changes is the cadence- 70-80 for a 8% climb but it drops to 45-55 for a 18-20%. If someone went up a 8% hill at 600w, then I would be suspicous. Afterall these guys are the elite. I think the most it is possible to pull is 450 watts for anything around 25 minutes, or certainly less than 500. This is based on playing with the numbers, for various climbs when you get enough data- Giro, TDF, Vuelta.

 

[Wheels Go Round and Round]

This then begs the question, if a clean Wiggins can maintain his power and his TT ability and improve his climbing to be up there with the best in the world by losing some weight, what makes anyone believe that Contador cannot do the same thing clean as well? I know he has been implicated in OP, but that was three years ago now. Contador has always been a top cyclist, including a superb climber and a very good TTer, and he is small and light.

Contador was NOT a good time trialer until just a few yrs ago. He was a "work" in progress. Now all of a sudden this guy is one of the best in the world at 135 lbs.....

real simple here guys..... DOPE

 

[blackcat]

Contador was NOT a good time trialer until just a few yrs ago. He was a "work" in progress. Now all of a sudden this guy is one of the best in the world at 135 lbs.....

real simple here guys..... DOPE

wrong. Won the Tour of Poland tt in 2004, always up there in the Paris Nice prologue, won the u23 Spanish chrono as first year espoir, and then he was signed by Saiz. Do some homework.

 

[Wheels Go Round and Round]

wrong. Won the Tour of Poland tt in 2004, always up there in the Paris Nice prologue, won the u23 Spanish chrono as first year espoir, and then he was signed by Saiz. Do some homework.

right... winning the tour of Poland, that shows unbelieveable time trialing ability. Mark my words Contador will show up as a doper

there have been numerous clips of Liggett and Sherwin in the past saying his time trialing was sub par.... then in 2007 this guy comes out blasting people

 

[_frost]

Contador was NOT a good time trialer until just a few yrs ago. He was a "work" in progress. Now all of a sudden this guy is one of the best in the world at 135 lbs.....

real simple here guys..... DOPE

You do realise that it is exactly the same engine that drives the TT as drives one up the mountain, exactly the same? You do? In a climb the resisting force is (mainly) gravity which means that losing weight leads to improvement whereas in TT the main resisting force is air density which means that better aerodynamics leads to improvement.

You cannot choose to dope to become a better climber or better TT:er. And the very same applies to track endurance btw.

 

[Franklin]

Contador was NOT a good time trialer until just a few yrs ago. He was a "work" in progress. Now all of a sudden this guy is one of the best in the world at 135 lbs.....

real simple here guys..... DOPE

You really are mistaken. He was a TT specialist first, a climber later (after his treatment for a tumor in his head).

It's not just Poland, I distinctly remember him being mentioned as hopeful "if his climbing improves".

Blackcat is right in this one. The myth that he was a climber who learnt to TT is just like the myth of Big Mig being a sudden contender. The public might think that way as they seem to suddenly burst in the open, but in truth they (both) have been up and coming before hand and widely discussed. And yes, Sherwen and Ligett are wrong with this one.. and not the first time.

That AC dopes is a given of course. Only look at Puerto and you should know enough. There has never been a satisfactory explanation why he and Valverde got of the hook.

 

[Wheels Go Round and Round]

I guess that makes Sherwin and Liggett both wrong too