Quintana??

[SHAD0W93]

Tramadol is really hard to get prescripted by doctors in my country in general, since it's a form of morphine. It's as a really dangerous drug. something you get addicted to easily. So I wonder if it's reasons like those that makes it end up on a ban list.

When people say "aren't there other pain killers?" yes of course they are but morphine is morphine is morphine? Sort of what I would assume.

Maybe that @Shadow93 person (why cannot I tag him/her on my computer :O) could chime in on the medical aspects better?

I would assume it’s banned because it’s very addicting, works really well so could be compensating for a potential undetected injury, sportsmanship on a physical level, and because of the sedative side effect.

The first two reasons are why the NFL stopped allowing it. The third I’m sure some could deem it unfair for riders that don’t want to use medications or a more natural pharmaceutical outlook. The last the medication like other narcotics causes massive CNS sedation. If you’re not used to taking it or take to much, you can get respiratory depression and sedated.

I agree with Red Rick in that it was probably used because he was in pain and it’s fast acting so could be used before the stage and it would last till the finish. There’s no point in taking it and then drawing blood, in my opinion.

 

[hfer07]

All I'm going to say about Quintanita is that his decision to undergo his knees operation in 2020 was a big factor for his career decline: Folks need to remember the Quintana back in March of 2020 when he was flying before the World got shut down. He suddenly was a fresh Quintana inspired by the Team change & many thought he was coming back to challenge grand tours GC. Once all races got cancelled due to the plandemic, He thought it was a good time to address some underlying issues with both knees before races could resume, but from that moment on, he just appeared to have lost it completely. there were some rumors about the operation wasn't successful at all, that Quintana was going thru lots of PT sessions after his expected recovery time because he seemed to be in pain or discomfort, so training wasn't good at all, etc. based on that, I tend to believe those issues may have originated the "tramadol" use.....

 

[Volderke]

Tramadol... I have it in the house. I tend to break a bone (or 2) every few years and thus prescribed painkillers, and it's always tramadol.
So after having taken 3-4 boxes with 24 pills each, I can say I have some experience!

So what does it do? It kills the pain. It helps to sleep at night after surgery. But, after 10-15 days, it doesn't work as well anymore. Your body gets habituated and I just don't get any effects anymore after approx. 2 weeks.
So I wouldn't say it's addictive, to the contrary: it works best if you don't use it often.

Just for fun, I used it once in a race. Actually, it wasn't fun: I was still having problems to get a good night sleep after injury, and took one the night before the race, but also one on race day, to get another hour of sleep around lunch. The race was somewhere late afternoon. I was flying. I didn't feel the pain in the legs. I didn't win (luckily maybe) as I didn't chase a friend of mine that got away (for 1st and 2nd). I sprinted for 3rd but out of position so I got 4th. That was some years ago and I didn't take it since then. I got a new box of pills in the house though after surgery, and so I could take a tramadol any race day, if I wanted. It sure helps to relieve the pain and to make you ride just a bit harder for a bit longer.

So what about Quintana? It seems possible he got prescribed Tramadol after his knee surgery back in 2020. Those pills would still not be (far) over expiry date and still work. So in any way, it seems possible he has experience with Tramadol, he has pills at home (prescribed, so nothing illegal) and he is able to take them without anyone else knowing. If so, he is ofcourse stupid, but I could understand he uses them on hard stages, especially when he feels pain from one or another old injury, and he thinks it's not traceable after approx. 6 hours (they work for max. 12 hours in my experience).

I think it would be a big coincidence and strange he would use tramadol at random / during training, tap of some blood and gets it in his system this way.

 

[SHAD0W93]

Tramadol... I have it in the house. I tend to break a bone (or 2) every few years and thus prescribed painkillers, and it's always tramadol.
So after having taken 3-4 boxes with 24 pills each, I can say I have some experience!

So what does it do? It kills the pain. It helps to sleep at night after surgery. But, after 10-15 days, it doesn't work as well anymore. Your body gets habituated and I just don't get any effects anymore after approx. 2 weeks.
So I wouldn't say it's addictive, to the contrary: it works best if you don't use it often.

Just for fun, I used it once in a race. Actually, it wasn't fun: I was still having problems to get a good night sleep after injury, and took one the night before the race, but also one on race day, to get another hour of sleep around lunch. The race was somewhere late afternoon. I was flying. I didn't feel the pain in the legs. I didn't win (luckily maybe) as I didn't chase a friend of mine that got away (for 1st and 2nd). I sprinted for 3rd but out of position so I got 4th. That was some years ago and I didn't take it since then. I got a new box of pills in the house though after surgery, and so I could take a tramadol any race day, if I wanted. It sure helps to relieve the pain and to make you ride just a bit harder for a bit longer.

So what about Quintana? It seems possible he got prescribed Tramadol after his knee surgery back in 2020. Those pills would still not be (far) over expiry date and still work. So in any way, it seems possible he has experience with Tramadol, he has pills at home (prescribed, so nothing illegal) and he is able to take them without anyone else knowing. If so, he is ofcourse stupid, but I could understand he uses them on hard stages, especially when he feels pain from one or another old injury, and he thinks it's not traceable after approx. 6 hours (they work for max. 12 hours in my experience).

I think it would be a big coincidence and strange he would use tramadol at random / during training, tap of some blood and gets it in his system this way.

That’s good you didn’t become addicted but like the other narcotics they are highly addictive and abused. Though tramadol is considered weaker then the other opioids, I would still relate that to how some people get addicted to alcohol, tobacco, or marijuana. They can become addicted due to pain relief, sedition/relaxing affect, and/or for some the feeling of a high it gives. I will say I see it prescribed less in the hospital setting compared to other opioids such as morphine, hydromorphone, or oxycodone and to that I don’t know why. And yes for opioids our bodies get used to it and it starts taking a higher dose to get the same affects for some people. You build up a tolerance overtime. The same dosage of an opioid for me who has very limited experience with them vs a longtime user for chronic pain will have different affects and side effects. Just like the nausea or vomiting symptoms of opioids are more common in people that have limited experience with them.

Tramadol Addiction Treatment & Rehab Center in Illinois

Learn about tramadol addiction causes, symptoms, side effects, and get help at Illinois' premier tramadol addiction rehab center.

www.gatewayfoundation.org

Common Opioids Listed From Strongest To Weakest

Knowing the list of the most common opioids will help you understand how deep one can be addicted to it. Reach us and help your loved one.

buenavistarecovery.com

Table A6.2, Approximate potency of opioids relative to morphine; PO and immediate-release formulations unless stated otherwisea - WHO Guidelines for the Pharmacological and Radiotherapeutic Management of Cancer Pain in Adults and Adolescents - NCBI B

It could also be banned worldwide for sports and in US because here in the States we have a big opioid addiction problem from it being prescribed in the past for any pain or prescribed a stronger opioid/higher dosage initially. Than when they go home they get a lesser dosage or opioid and it doesn’t have the same affect causing them to have to take/want more. That’s why some providers now want to start at a lesser opioid or dose and work their way up to not get the person addicted.

I’ve had morphine in hospital and hydrocodone/acetaminophen upon discharge for what they believed initially was a heart attack but turned out to be peracarditis. It definitely took all of the pain away in every part of my body I felt. Then when I got hit by the car the emts gave me fentanyl and I didn’t feel anything besides the pain in my ear. Which is amazing since when the fentanyl wore off I had massive pain in my knee, ankle, and thumb.

 

[noob]

That’s good you didn’t become addicted but like the other narcotics they are highly addictive and abused. Though tramadol is considered weaker then the other opioids, I would still relate that to how some people get addicted to alcohol, tobacco, or marijuana. They can become addicted due to pain relief, sedition/relaxing affect, and/or for some the feeling of a high it gives. I will say I see it prescribed less in the hospital setting compared to other opioids such as morphine, hydromorphone, or oxycodone and to that I don’t know why. And yes for opioids our bodies get used to it and it starts taking a higher dose to get the same affects for some people. You build up a tolerance overtime. The same dosage of an opioid for me who has very limited experience with them vs a longtime user for chronic pain will have different affects and side effects. Just like the nausea or vomiting symptoms of opioids are more common in people that have limited experience with them.

Tramadol Addiction Treatment & Rehab Center in Illinois

Learn about tramadol addiction causes, symptoms, side effects, and get help at Illinois' premier tramadol addiction rehab center.

www.gatewayfoundation.org

Common Opioids Listed From Strongest To Weakest

Knowing the list of the most common opioids will help you understand how deep one can be addicted to it. Reach us and help your loved one.

buenavistarecovery.com

Table A6.2, Approximate potency of opioids relative to morphine; PO and immediate-release formulations unless stated otherwisea - WHO Guidelines for the Pharmacological and Radiotherapeutic Management of Cancer Pain in Adults and Adolescents - NCBI B

It could also be banned worldwide for sports and in US because here in the States we have a big opioid addiction problem from it being prescribed in the past for any pain or prescribed a stronger opioid/higher dosage initially. Than when they go home they get a lesser dosage or opioid and it doesn’t have the same affect causing them to have to take/want more. That’s why some providers now want to start at a lesser opioid or dose and work their way up to not get the person addicted.

I’ve had morphine in hospital and hydrocodone/acetaminophen upon discharge for what they believed initially was a heart attack but turned out to be peracarditis. It definitely took all of the pain away in every part of my body I felt. Then when I got hit by the car the emts gave me fentanyl and I didn’t feel anything besides the pain in my ear. Which is amazing since when the fentanyl wore off I had massive pain in my knee, ankle, and thumb.

I had a friend once who got addicted to codeine (not morphine but) accidentally to the point that the body signaled escalated pain. At least that was how the friends doctors explained it when they took the codeine away from my friend. The pain did subside substantially without the codeine. Hence why I was so curious.

Thanks for all the replies

 

[staubsauger]

Wasn't Johnson & Johnson in fact ordered by court to pay a huge amount of smart money for causing the Oxycodon addiction crisis in the United States by falsely claiming that it won't make people become addicted?

Smoking heroine is still widely spread in the US, especially California due to the opioid addiction.

Ariana Grande'S former boyfriend rapper Mac Miller actually died from an overdose when his purchased Heroine in fact was much more potent and dangerous opioid Fentanyl.

 

[SHAD0W93]

And there is no other painkiller option at all?

Sometimes narcotics are the only thing that works for chronic issues.

 

[fbjim]

Tramodol is a painkiller with significant side effects which usually were dealt with by "finish bottle" cocktails. The idea of him just taking them for no reason outside of a specific cocktail makes almost no sense.

 

[warrior4life]

I’ve been on 300mg (6 tablets a day) for 10 years. I’ve had spinal fusion surgery.
it’s very effect and is a definite performance enhancer. It might not make you faster but it does allow you to use all of what you have, it mentally picks you up and kills pain.
That brings said when you’ve taken it for a long time the performance benefit disappears. I don’t feel anything on the bike, if anything I’m slower on it as it as I take enough to make it a downer.
I’ve taken various drugs over the years, not for cycling and I never raced on them but I still rode.
I never found any benefit to testosterone or steroids, I was just heavy and sluggish. Asthma meds did work and I didn’t feel I went in to the red as quick but this was the early 90’s. Out of all of the. tramadol had the biggest effect.
I’d liken it’s effects to eating right, getting a great nights sleep, being super motivated and having fresh legs.
that being said that would be only taking it when you race and not on a regular basis. I’m addicted to it but physically I struggle without it. I spoke to my doctor and asked what people did before string pain killers and she said they either didn’t work or they often drank a lot. Anything to numb the pain and make life easier.
for me tramadol should be the same as any other serious PED.
mid I’ve raced my bike while being prescribed it I’ve not used it. This has seen me drop out of multiple races, not start others and generally struggle. Such is life. Even at my low level it feels very wrong to take it when racing.

 

[SHAD0W93]

Wasn't Johnson & Johnson in fact ordered by court to pay a huge amount of smart money for causing the Oxycodon addiction crisis in the United States by falsely claiming that it won't make people become addicted?

Smoking heroine is still widely spread in the US, especially California due to the opioid addiction.

Ariana Grande'S former boyfriend rapper Mac Miller actually died from an overdose when his purchased Heroine in fact was much more potent and dangerous opioid Fentanyl.

I know a company got in trouble but don’t know which.

You have to be careful with a lot of street drugs as some dealers lace/spike it with fentanyl. Than if you’re at a party or with friends, how many know CPR to affectively help you if you go into cardiac arrest. The chance of being on a trach/vent with an anoxic brain injury isn’t living or worth it. Reminds me of a story with an 18 year old eating a slug on a dare and becoming a quadriplegic due to the smug having a virus or fungus.

 

[proffate]

Wasn't Johnson & Johnson in fact ordered by court to pay a huge amount of smart money for causing the Oxycodon addiction crisis in the United States by falsely claiming that it won't make people become addicted?

I believe Purdue Pharma is the only company to which charges stuck (ruling against J&J was overturned in court).

 

[Cookster15]

What's his YouTube username?

Found him - drunkensailor112

 

[Cookster15]

I never found any benefit to testosterone or steroids

I don't doubt your experience of tramadol but not sure if your experience with testosterone is valid? I know an older guy who rides and competed in ironman triathlon who was prescribed testosterone. He says it made him super strong climbing. I remember when Floyd claimed it wouldn't explain his 2006 superhuman solo escape on stage 17, my friend immediately called BS.

 

[Armchair Cyclist]

Tramadol... I have it in the house. I tend to break a bone (or 2) every few years and thus prescribed painkillers, and it's always tramadol.
So after having taken 3-4 boxes with 24 pills each, I can say I have some experience!

So what does it do? It kills the pain. It helps to sleep at night after surgery. But, after 10-15 days, it doesn't work as well anymore. Your body gets habituated and I just don't get any effects anymore after approx. 2 weeks.
So I wouldn't say it's addictive, to the contrary: it works best if you don't use it often.

Just for fun, I used it once in a race. Actually, it wasn't fun: I was still having problems to get a good night sleep after injury, and took one the night before the race, but also one on race day, to get another hour of sleep around lunch. The race was somewhere late afternoon. I was flying. I didn't feel the pain in the legs. I didn't win (luckily maybe) as I didn't chase a friend of mine that got away (for 1st and 2nd). I sprinted for 3rd but out of position so I got 4th. That was some years ago and I didn't take it since then. I got a new box of pills in the house though after surgery, and so I could take a tramadol any race day, if I wanted. It sure helps to relieve the pain and to make you ride just a bit harder for a bit longer.

So what about Quintana? It seems possible he got prescribed Tramadol after his knee surgery back in 2020. Those pills would still not be (far) over expiry date and still work. So in any way, it seems possible he has experience with Tramadol, he has pills at home (prescribed, so nothing illegal) and he is able to take them without anyone else knowing. If so, he is ofcourse stupid, but I could understand he uses them on hard stages, especially when he feels pain from one or another old injury, and he thinks it's not traceable after approx. 6 hours (they work for max. 12 hours in my experience).

I think it would be a big coincidence and strange he would use tramadol at random / during training, tap of some blood and gets it in his system this way.

I suppose the two relevant questions are:
Is this a markedly better performance than you would ordinarily have expected in that race?
Do you believe that your balance/judgement/perception were affected in the race (or did anyone else think you had ridden unsafely)?

 

[TheSpud]

Tramadol is really hard to get prescripted by doctors in my country in general, since it's a form of morphine. It's as a really dangerous drug. something you get addicted to easily. So I wonder if it's reasons like those that makes it end up on a ban list.

When people say "aren't there other pain killers?" yes of course they are but morphine is morphine is morphine? Sort of what I would assume.

Maybe that @Shadow93 person (why cannot I tag him/her on my computer :O) could chime in on the medical aspects better?

Thats not technically true, its not related to morphine but it is a synthetic Opioid which gives it both its painkilling ability and its addiction ability. But you are right that those are the reasons why its so controlled and potentially very dangerous. I was on it for 5+ months and never made it past 5 in one day (max 8) - the other side effect is that it bungs you up, some days it felt like I was trying to pass a double decker bus!

 

[SHAD0W93]

Thats not technically true, its not related to morphine but it is a synthetic Opioid which gives it both its painkilling ability and its addiction ability. But you are right that those are the reasons why its so controlled and potentially very dangerous. I was on it for 5+ months and never made it past 5 in one day (max 8) - the other side effect is that it bungs you up, some days it felt like I was trying to pass a double decker bus!

Yeah if someone is allergic to morphine they can have tramadol. Though there are very few people actually allergic, most think the side effects of morphine, hydro, oxy, etc. are allergic reactions.

 

[Volderke]

I suppose the two relevant questions are:
Is this a markedly better performance than you would ordinarily have expected in that race?
Do you believe that your balance/judgement/perception were affected in the race (or did anyone else think you had ridden unsafely)?

1. The performance was at 100%, but I couldn't go deeper than in other races, the difference was that I wasn't afraid of an extra dig (at the front or trying to escape).
2. The race split already in the first couple of rounds and I was first in a group of 6, later in a chasing group of 3 (with 2 in front). So technically, it wasn't hard to keep lines and position myself into curves etc. I must admit my reaction time was probably a bit off. I would say this was rather a consequence of not being nervous and thus less concentrated (I was confident nobody could escape so I didn't have to be fully attentive all the time, I just dug deep and did big pulls).

So yes, in my eyes it is definitely performance enhancing. Be aware I didn't take it in order to 'dope' myself for the race, but rather because I was still having broken nights because of an injury, and wanted some good night sleep and rest before the race.

 

[Ripper]

Thats not technically true, its not related to morphine but it is a synthetic Opioid which gives it both its painkilling ability and its addiction ability. But you are right that those are the reasons why its so controlled and potentially very dangerous. I was on it for 5+ months and never made it past 5 in one day (max 8) - the other side effect is that it bungs you up, some days it felt like I was trying to pass a double decker bus!

Or a large something related to your username!?

 

[Ripper]

1. The performance was at 100%, but I couldn't go deeper than in other races, the difference was that I wasn't afraid of an extra dig (at the front or trying to escape).
2. The race split already in the first couple of rounds and I was first in a group of 6, later in a chasing group of 3 (with 2 in front). So technically, it wasn't hard to keep lines and position myself into curves etc. I must admit my reaction time was probably a bit off. I would say this was rather a consequence of not being nervous and thus less concentrated (I was confident nobody could escape so I didn't have to be fully attentive all the time, I just dug deep and did big pulls).

So yes, in my eyes it is definitely performance enhancing. Be aware I didn't take it in order to 'dope' myself for the race, but rather because I was still having broken nights because of an injury, and wanted some good night sleep and rest before the race.

I wonder if a better way to say and look at this is not that it is performance enhancing, but it may be performance optimizing. In other words, if you are 'off' for some sort of physical reason (muscle pain, poor sleep, etc.), then it might help you be closer to your 100%. Of course, YMMV and some people might consider this semantics. Also, there is placebo, which can have a real impact.

There have been some studies on this, but I believe they have had very small sample sizes and were not of high level athletes, so I am pretty skeptical about how valid they are in the real world peloton.

All this said, I do think it is good to ban the use during competition. If you need narcotics, then riding around at 50+ kph shoulder to shoulder is not perhaps the best idea

In regard to Naroman, I suspect the most likely mechanisms are either something was tainted and/or he somehow managed to get some in his system and then stored some blood (which has already been said). I think the likelihood of a pro volitionally taking this at any point during a stage race is very, very unlikely. Not impossible, as some have demonstrated they are not too bright, but it is pretty dang unlikely given how well known the rule is. Naroman has not been high on my doping suspicion list, but it is pro sports and you just never know.

 

[staubsauger]

Either his knees are so broken he can't ride a GT without Tramadol.

Or they couldn't catch him for what he truly dopes with back in 2020 and thus palmed Tramadol off on him.

 

[Pantani_lives]

This shows again that the testing doesn't work at all. Big budget teams can have a doping program for years without risking a positive test. Then someone from a small budget team tests positive for a product that doesn't help, probably without knowing he had it in his body.

This problem can only be solved if an independent organisation takes over the doping controls from the UCI. Currently the whole anti-doping system is a joke. It's like when Ludo Dierckxens was "caught" during the Armstrong era. The big guys get away with it and the UCI needs a scapegoat every now and then, to give the impression they're doing something.

 

[staubsauger]

This shows again that the testing doesn't work at all. Big budget teams can have a doping program for years without risking a positive test. Then someone from a small budget team tests positive for a product that doesn't help, probably without knowing he had it in his body.

This problem can only be solved if an independent organisation takes over the doping controls from the UCI. Currently the whole anti-doping system is a joke. It's like when Ludo Dierckxens was "caught" during the Armstrong era. The big guys get away with it and the UCI needs a scapegoat every now and then, to give the impression they're doing something.

Dierckxens never was caught though. He told the testers "Don't look after the cortisones". Actually they never found them.
At least that's the story Mart Smeets once told.

 

[carolina]

He should just admit he took tramadol the night before (or something like that) and move on. He wasn't even suspended.

I don't see how he's going to defend himself.

 

[Netserk]

This shows again that the testing doesn't work at all. Big budget teams can have a doping program for years without risking a positive test. Then someone from a small budget team tests positive for a product that doesn't help, probably without knowing he had it in his body.

This problem can only be solved if an independent organisation takes over the doping controls from the UCI. Currently the whole anti-doping system is a joke. It's like when Ludo Dierckxens was "caught" during the Armstrong era. The big guys get away with it and the UCI needs a scapegoat every now and then, to give the impression they're doing something.

What is it about the current set-up that you would like to change?

 

[hfer07]

So Nairo has lawyered up to fight his case over CAS. I tend to believe if he had some culpability, then he would have just let go of it since it meant no sanction at all, so he's taking it personal. good luck to him and his legal team