Quintana??

[ppanther92]

Re:

I quite like him as a rider and I worry that a lot of the criticism of him is very subtle racism.

To be honest, thats the only racist thing i have read about Quintana in the last three weeks. Guess what, i just don't like his riding style and i for sure wouldn't like it better if he was Whitey McWhite...

 

[luckyboy]

Along a kind of similar thread, I noticed that a lot of English-speaking media and fans turned against Nibali and Quintana very easily this Giro.

Obviously I'm talking about the final week when they "didn't wait" for Dumoulin and again with the fake pissgate a few days later when people came to conclusions about what happened immediately.

I think it's easier for people to criticise them when they don't speak any English. Nobody hears them speak first-hand, it's hard to get a sense of their personality, and then it's easy to dismiss them as cheaters.

 

[T_S_A_R]

When I started watching cycling on Eurosport about 15 years ago one of the things that surprised me was that I was not only expected to support the rare Brit or Irishman who appeared but also anyone who spoke English as first language especially Australians.

It's a strange outlook for such a cosmopolitan sport.

 

[Valv.Piti]

Good few posts. Its indeed the language barrier, but also, IMO, because countries such as Spain and Italy are regarded as 'the bad boys' when it comes to doping.

I've never understood chauvinism either. Why would I support a rider just because he is Danish without taking his personality, riding style etc. into consideration? We generally have boring riders, the exception being Michael Rasmussen. Hell no, Im not waving my flag and getting that easily excited whenever someone from Denmark does anything remotely good.

 

[kingjr]

It's easier to relate to and empathise with people that look similar to you, talk your language and generally have a similar background.

 

[Valv.Piti]

Re:

It's easier to relate to and empathise with people that look similar to you, talk your language and generally have a similar background.

Its just the hype and everything that goes along with that often turns me in the opposite direction, hoping they do badly so commentators can focus on the 'real' race instead, if you know what I mean?

 

[Robert5091]

The Giro was just the warm up for Quintana - TdF will be at 100% & shorter ITTs. Look out!

 

[The Hegelian]

Pretty strange comments about Quintana. Playing the racism card seems really off to me. He's got more unpopular for sure. But if that has anything to do with ethnicity or nation, how might we explain the (simultaneous) intense popularity of Chaves and Gaviria? Those two are revered (and with good reason I think).

Personality and racing style are pretty decisive methinks.

People wanted/expected Quintana to be the next Pantani - but he's more measured, has less panache...things really turned when he spent the whole 2016 tdf hanging on the the Sky train.

On the Anglosphere vs cosmopolitan thing - it goes both ways. I think true, long term cycling fans from English speaking places resent the rise of the anglo riders. In that, part of the attraction to procycling in the first instance was the escape into French/Spanish/Italian worlds. Places with more style and culture!

 

[kingjr]

Re: Re:

It's easier to relate to and empathise with people that look similar to you, talk your language and generally have a similar background.

Its just the hype and everything that goes along with that often turns me in the opposite direction, hoping they do badly so commentators can focus on the 'real' race instead, if you know what I mean?

That's why I avoid all German commentary and coverage if I can, except for ESP, which actually has two quite decent commentators.

 

[Escarabajo]

Re:

Pretty strange comments about Quintana. Playing the racism card seems really off to me. He's got more unpopular for sure. But if that has anything to do with ethnicity or nation, how might we explain the (simultaneous) intense popularity of Chaves and Gaviria? Those two are revered (and with good reason I think).

Personality and racing style are pretty decisive methinks.

People wanted/expected Quintana to be the next Pantani - but he's more measured, has less panache...things really turned when he spent the whole 2016 tdf hanging on the the Sky train.

On the Anglosphere vs cosmopolitan thing - it goes both ways. I think true, long term cycling fans from English speaking places resent the rise of the anglo riders. In that, part of the attraction to procycling in the first instance was the escape into French/Spanish/Italian worlds. Places with more style and culture!

What are you talking about?
Quintana didn't say anything.

Colombia is a melting pot of ethnicity. So Chaves and Gaviria could not be used as an example when comparing to Quintana. They are from a different ethnicity to Quintana anyway. That is a bit off the point.

 

[The Hegelian]

Re: Re:

Pretty strange comments about Quintana. Playing the racism card seems really off to me. He's got more unpopular for sure. But if that has anything to do with ethnicity or nation, how might we explain the (simultaneous) intense popularity of Chaves and Gaviria? Those two are revered (and with good reason I think).

Personality and racing style are pretty decisive methinks.

People wanted/expected Quintana to be the next Pantani - but he's more measured, has less panache...things really turned when he spent the whole 2016 tdf hanging on the the Sky train.

On the Anglosphere vs cosmopolitan thing - it goes both ways. I think true, long term cycling fans from English speaking places resent the rise of the anglo riders. In that, part of the attraction to procycling in the first instance was the escape into French/Spanish/Italian worlds. Places with more style and culture!

What are you talking about?
Quintana didn't say anything.

Colombia is a melting pot of ethnicity. So Chaves and Gaviria could not be used as an example when comparing to Quintana. They are from a different ethnicity to Quintana anyway. That is a bit off the point.

1. I didn't assert that Quintana said anything; I was responding to what other posters in this thread were asserting. Namely, that Quintana is unpopular due to his ethnicity.
2. Melting pot or not, the claims were that there is an Anglo bias/prejudice against Spanish/Italian/Colombian riders. So no, it's not off point - unless you think that Chaves and Gaviria are tantamount to Anglo.

 

[carton]

Re: Re:

2. Melting pot or not, the claims were that there is an Anglo bias/prejudice against Spanish/Italian/Colombian riders. So no, it's not off point - unless you think that Chaves and Gaviria are tantamount to Anglo.

Fair. But so is Chaves and Gaviria's skin, coincidentally. Chaves speaks pretty decent English and is pretty well marketed by an Australian team. Gaviria has been on the scene for barely a year and Friebe allready called him Count Whoever for checking his hair before walking into the press conference.

Quintana didn't get the bad rap until he started being the favourite for races. Contador seems to have started to get back on commentators good graces when he was no longer winning Tours. Watch this space.

But personally I think the thing that works the most against Quintana is this unyielding myth that he's some kind of conservative rider even though he's the most attacking GT rider we've had since at least Hinault (though you might go with Ricco, Rasmussen or Pantani for maybe a season each-not great company there BTW). It's completely asinine, but quite likely not racist. Though maybe the inscrutable face even when he cracks makes some here believe he could win up every hill if he just tried harder. Or that he doesn't call his shots or shade other riders. I'm really at a loss.

 

[staubsauger]

Pantani was more aggressive than Quintana throughout his whole career! That's why all the fans absolutely loved him. It's what made him “the Tupac of cycling“ in fact.

There are plenty of other more aggressive riders as well. Guys like Simoni, Heras, Ugrumov, Basso, Riis , Contador etc. If Contador was as conservative as Quintana, Lance Armstrong would've won the 2009 Tour!

 

[carton]

Re:

Pantani was more aggressive than Quintana throughout his whole career! That's why all the fans absolutely loved him. It's what made him “the Tupac of cycling“ in fact.

There are plenty of other more aggressive riders as well. Guys like Simoni, Heras, Ugrumov, Basso, Riis , Contador etc. If Contador was as conservative as Quintana, Lance Armstrong would've won the 2009 Tour!

Pantani was in the race in three Grand Tours in his life. He had a similar style and ability (relative to his time) than Quintana, but he went for stages more often. If you want to call that aggressive, be my guest. Id' call that pragmatically aware of his limitations.

In 2009, Contador attacked:

-From 3km to go in Arcalis.
-From 6km to go in Verbier.
-In stage 17, where he made a little dig and then followed wheels to the line.

That was it. No other attacks. Not even small digs. None were needed, to be fair, as he took most of his lead on Schleck, who was by far the more aggressive rider, ceaselessly attacking on behalf of his brother those final few stages, in the last time trial, which he won.

He was on far better form than Quintana is now. The W/Kg on Verbier in particular, were off the charts. Watt he put out in Annency (geddit), likely even more so. But he put in three digs that entire Tour. He attacked far less, from far closer, and took far less time on Andy on the road than Quintana did on Dumoulin. More agressive how? In his press conferences?

 

[staubsauger]

Pantani was highly issued with major depression, chronic inferior complexes and probably never diagnosed ADHD as a provenience. Which resulted in a compulsive hoarding of victories to get appreciation and self-regard.

That's most likely why he never cared about something less than a podium spot. That's why he lost half an hour once he missed the important move at the 95 Tour de Suisse and preferred to win the stage to Flumserberg the next day. That's why he went berserk on Galibier and on Alpe d'Huez.

There are so many examples when Pantani took incredible risks with all-in attacks, where Quintana happily would've settled for a podium spot or even a top 5 placement. Pantani was in desperate need of that winning feeling. Which is why he was a far, far more attacking and entertaining rider in that few gt's and that one Tour of Switzerland he seriously rode, than Quintana's gonna be in his whole career.

Pantani even makes Contador look shy. But like I said, there's a serious reason for it. Like always when something is too good to be true!

Oh and obviously Quintana neither knows his limitations, neither does he get that going for a big stage win Pantani-style sometimes is more huge than settling with a podium spot. Simply because it might deliver those magical overall victories like the 1998 Tour de France. That's why he never takes that risk and is less attacking than the pirate.

The copy's never better than the original. It's just that.

 

[Benotti69]

Re:

Good few posts. Its indeed the language barrier, but also, IMO, because countries such as Spain and Italy are regarded as 'the bad boys' when it comes to doping.

I've never understood chauvinism either. Why would I support a rider just because he is Danish without taking his personality, riding style etc. into consideration? We generally have boring riders, the exception being Michael Rasmussen. Hell no, Im not waving my flag and getting that easily excited whenever someone from Denmark does anything remotely good.

i watched RAI for quite a few Giros (due to Kirby and Duffield being such idiots) and they are not much better than eurosportUK in their national bias.

At least europsortUK will champion a few nations, albeit English speaking ones, but then that's their remit, as no doubt eurosport FR, eurosportIT, eurosportNL etc will be favouring/cheering their 'own' riders.

 

[carton]

Re:

The copy's never better than the original. It's just that.

I don't think Nairo ever wanted to be the copy of the Pirate. Seems like a rough life.

In any case, Nairo's got more pro victories than Marco already, not just GT podiums. He might not go as fast, but he goes from further out, more often, and with more on the line. But at his peak Pantani was faster, no doubt. Quicker than anyone ever up a hill, to be fair. So to each his own. I was a fan of Indurain and Ullrich back in the day, anyway. Loved it when he took it to HWMNBN up Ventoux, though.

 

[Mr.White]

Re: Re:

Pantani was more aggressive than Quintana throughout his whole career! That's why all the fans absolutely loved him. It's what made him “the Tupac of cycling“ in fact.

There are plenty of other more aggressive riders as well. Guys like Simoni, Heras, Ugrumov, Basso, Riis , Contador etc. If Contador was as conservative as Quintana, Lance Armstrong would've won the 2009 Tour!

Pantani was in the race in three Grand Tours in his life. He had a similar style and ability (relative to his time) than Quintana, but he went for stages more often. If you want to call that aggressive, be my guest. Id' call that pragmatically aware of his limitations.

In 2009, Contador attacked:

-From 3km to go in Arcalis.
-From 6km to go in Verbier.
-In stage 17, where he made a little dig and then followed wheels to the line.

That was it. No other attacks. Not even small digs. None were needed, to be fair, as he took most of his lead on Schleck, who was by far the more aggressive rider, ceaselessly attacking on behalf of his brother those final few stages, in the last time trial, which he won.

He was on far better form than Quintana is now. The W/Kg on Verbier in particular, were off the charts. Watt he put out in Annency (geddit), likely even more so. But he put in three digs that entire Tour. He attacked far less, from far closer, and took far less time on Andy on the road than Quintana did on Dumoulin. More agressive how? In his press conferences?

Well if you're questioning whether Pantani and Contador are more aggressive and exciting riders than Quintana, I frankly don't know which sport you're following

 

[carton]

Re: Re:

Well if you're questioning whether Pantani and Contador are more aggressive and exciting riders than Quintana, I frankly don't know which sport you're following

Exciting? Exciting is a personal thing. It really depends quite little on which sport one follows.

Aggressive? That's self evident. Quintana has already made more GT attacks than either Contador or Pantani did over their entire careers (so far, for Contador. He's close. He might still have time to catch up).

 

[carton]

Re:

nairo..........the most attacking GT rider since hinault..........i heard that before

i think it was nairo's mother...............except this ain't no popularity contest

'tis the clinic and i don't think mothers are the ones to acknowledge just where that attacking

power came from

Mark L

In all seriousness: do really think Nairo's mother knows who Hinault is/was?

 

[The Hegelian]

Speaking personally: when Quintana came on the scene as one of the only riders to be able to put Froome in trouble in a tdf, I was super enthused.

He stepped immediately into the most romantic of all cycling imputations: the ethereal goat who can dance up a mythical climb and destroy otherwise remarkable riders. Independent of skin colour, language and place of origin, those goats are always the most revered - partly due to their rarity.

But since then, he's stepped out of that myth - and become instead a very consistent GC rider who can make time on hard mountain stages, but never blow the race to bits. Kudos for that, his palmares speaks for itself. But appearing less interesting, less mythical, less popular all follow from becoming a consistent GC type.

 

[Tonton]

FWIW, I posted the final GC of the '09 Giro Della Valle d'Aosta in the Thibaut Pinot thread. All I wanted was a picture, then with some digging to find out about the field, things got interesting to me. Pinot won the overall, beat Aru and Quintana by almost one hour in six stages. I admit that I'm biased towards Pinot, but the turn of the tables is quite dramatic. What happened? Did Tibopino get overtaken by mutants? Look at the final GC, some usual suspects in there.

Quintana joined Banesto, different team name, same methods...Quintana??? should be Quintana .

 

[Dekker_Tifosi]

Don't make comparisons like that. In 2010, Q won tour l'avenir, Dumoulin was 1 hour back

a year later, Chaves won, Dumoulin was 15th about 10/15 minutes back, and now Quintana was 40 minutes back.

You can't see things so black and white. Season goals and such

 

[DFA123]

FWIW, I posted the final GC of the '09 Giro Della Valle d'Aosta in the Thibaut Pinot thread. All I wanted was a picture, then with some digging to find out about the field, things got interesting to me. Pinot won the overall, beat Aru and Quintana by almost one hour in six stages. I admit that I'm biased towards Pinot, but the turn of the tables is quite dramatic. What happened? Did Tibopino get overtaken by mutants? Look at the final GC, some usual suspects in there.

Quintana joined Banesto, different team name, same methods...Quintana??? should be Quintana .

Interesting, so you think Pinot started on a full program earlier than some of his other rivals? I guess that could explain why his progress stalled a bit.

 

[Escarabajo]

FWIW, I posted the final GC of the '09 Giro Della Valle d'Aosta in the Thibaut Pinot thread. All I wanted was a picture, then with some digging to find out about the field, things got interesting to me. Pinot won the overall, beat Aru and Quintana by almost one hour in six stages. I admit that I'm biased towards Pinot, but the turn of the tables is quite dramatic. What happened? Did Tibopino get overtaken by mutants? Look at the final GC, some usual suspects in there.

Quintana joined Banesto, different team name, same methods...Quintana??? should be Quintana .

Quintana was already very good before he joined Movistar.