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thehog said:
...
T-Mobile went to McQuaid and told him that they were going to make the super clean team and he wished them luck. They also said they would set up a fund for ProTour wide dope tests. To be fair to the Irishman its a conflict having a sponser funding dope testing and McQuaid knocked it on the head.
...

Maybe this is one area where McQuaid differs from his predecessor Verdruggen. Or maybe once burned, twice shy.
 
Aug 13, 2009
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thehog said:
I have emails to this effect. I also know it.

I have worked for Telekom for 8 years. I talk and travel with various members of the executive management often. Your emails are not correct. Sinkewitz was not wanted back. If there was a final straw he was it.
 
Race Radio said:
I have worked for Telekom for 8 years. I talk and travel with various members of the executive management often. Your emails are not correct. Sinkewitz was not wanted back. If there was a final straw he was it.

Mate, selling "das handy" doesn't count! ha ha ha ! :p

Yes he was the final straw but they still wanted to rehire him once he spewed his soul to the world. He was a safer bet than Big George and a much better marketing story than any juiced up yank.

I know.
 
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so have we gone from Hincapie being the reason Telekom left cycling, to Sinkewitz being the reason in just four pages...

i always just assumed that telekom left because of germanies indifference to cylcing at the time as a result of failed dope tests galore.. but then i didnt really bother reading between the lines too much
 
Aug 13, 2009
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thehog said:
Mate, selling "das handy" doesn't count! ha ha ha ! :p

Yes he was the final straw but they still wanted to rehire him once he spewed his soul to the world. He was a safer bet than Big George and a much better marketing story than any juiced up yank.

I know.

I do not sell "Das Handy" but nice try. I work for the Telekom, not T-Mobile.

I was traveling in a series of meetings with a board member during the summer of 2007. The day of Sinkewitz's positive we had breakfast and he already had received an email about it (It was not in the media yet). He was ****ed and said we were done. Within a few months this view was confirmed and the sponsorship was ended. There was never a demand to take back Sinkewitz, quite the opposite.

I am very proud to work for Telekom. You will find this same feeling with most of the people I work with who often have put in 20-30 years with the company. For 18 months the team was a constant source of embarrassment.
 
Nov 17, 2009
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I think people using Hincapie's climbing results as reasons for doping are a bit off the mark. Hincapie won one mountain stage in the tour... from a break. Let's not think he somehow "outclimbed" guys like Ulrich, Armstrong and Basso. Rather he outclimbed Pereiro, Cauchiolli and Boogerd. It's a bit different animal. He also finished 13 minutes back in the mountain stage the day before... possibly saving energy for an attempt at a breakaway stage win.

If anything, his exploits in terms of dropping people from the pack weren't any different then what Cancellera has done the last couple of years... high tempo at the base of a mountain to drop some people. Then guys like Heras, Landis, Acevedo or Salvoldelli would keep the pace up to continue dropping people. Cancellera dropped Sastre from the pelaton in the tour this year too.

Hincapie was never a great climber. He was adequate, but that was about all. Maybe he got to adequate by doping, maybe not... but even at his best climbing years he'd finish near guys like Gilbert more often then guys like Ulrich. In 2006 in the first mountain stage... presumably with the support of the discovery channel team as a GC threat... he finished 46th... 21 minutes down to Landis, Leipheimer and Menchov. His climbing was on par with Botcharov and Lefervre.

It's different to kill yourself at the base of a climb to weed out the pelaton for a team leader and try to hang with the climbers up a whole climb. Hincapie could do the former... just like Cancellera can now. He could NEVER do the latter. His climbing prowess was never that far out of the norm for the larger guys with big engines and a bit of staying power.
 
Race Radio said:
This is completely incorrect. Nobody at Telekom wanted Jaschke or Sinkewitz back. I don't know who is telling you this but they are feeding you a bunch of BS.

I quote to prove you wrong again!!! :p:p

"Deutsche Telekom had said it wanted T-Mobile to re-hire Jaksche when his ban expires. Both Jaksche and Deutsche Telekom would have benefited from the arrangement, because both were deeply embroiled in the doping mire and were looking for a way to get out. "An idea failed, and it was the only reasonable one," says Jaksche. "The withdrawal has closed a door for me.""
 
kurtinsc said:
I think people using Hincapie's climbing results as reasons for doping are a bit off the mark. Hincapie won one mountain stage in the tour... from a break. Let's not think he somehow "outclimbed" guys like Ulrich, Armstrong and Basso. Rather he outclimbed Pereiro, Cauchiolli and Boogerd. It's a bit different animal. He also finished 13 minutes back in the mountain stage the day before... possibly saving energy for an attempt at a breakaway stage win.

If anything, his exploits in terms of dropping people from the pack weren't any different then what Cancellera has done the last couple of years... high tempo at the base of a mountain to drop some people. Then guys like Heras, Landis, Acevedo or Salvoldelli would keep the pace up to continue dropping people. Cancellera dropped Sastre from the pelaton in the tour this year too.

Hincapie was never a great climber. He was adequate, but that was about all. Maybe he got to adequate by doping, maybe not... but even at his best climbing years he'd finish near guys like Gilbert more often then guys like Ulrich. In 2006 in the first mountain stage... presumably with the support of the discovery channel team as a GC threat... he finished 46th... 21 minutes down to Landis, Leipheimer and Menchov. His climbing was on par with Botcharov and Lefervre.

It's different to kill yourself at the base of a climb to weed out the pelaton for a team leader and try to hang with the climbers up a whole climb. Hincapie could do the former... just like Cancellera can now. He could NEVER do the latter. His climbing prowess was never that far out of the norm for the larger guys with big engines and a bit of staying power.

I am only going by memory, but I seem to recall Hincapie (and most of Discovery) pulling the peloton through the Alps day after day and not just at the bottom of the climbs. Then, as if all that work made him stronger rather than tired as it might a mere mortal, after about 200km and numerous cols he sucked Pereiro's wheel for a pretty good distance on the last climb until outsprinting him for the victory, keeping in mind that Pereiro was among the top climbers at that time.

All in all a pretty remarkable performance for a guy billed as a classics rider.
 
frenchfry said:
I am only going by memory, but I seem to recall Hincapie (and most of Discovery) pulling the peloton through the Alps day after day and not just at the bottom of the climbs. Then, as if all that work made him stronger rather than tired as it might a mere mortal, after about 200km and numerous cols he sucked Pereiro's wheel for a pretty good distance on the last climb until outsprinting him for the victory, keeping in mind that Pereiro was among the top climbers at that time.

All in all a pretty remarkable performance for a guy billed as a classics rider.

Yes and the cobbled classics, not the hilly ones, to boot!
2005 was really a Tour de Farce, if ever there was one.

George Hincapie joined Omerta in his youth, as his refusal to join the "essence of cortisone" group action, clearly showed.
 
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kurtinsc said:
If anything, his exploits in terms of dropping people from the pack weren't any different then what Cancellera has done the last couple of years... high tempo at the base of a mountain to drop some people. Then guys like Heras, Landis, Acevedo or Salvoldelli would keep the pace up to continue dropping people. Cancellera dropped Sastre from the pelaton in the tour this year too.

I'm not sure you want to make that comparison. There are plenty of folks around here who think Cancellara is not exactly clean.

Hincapie was never a great climber. He was adequate, but that was about all. Maybe he got to adequate by doping, maybe not... but even at his best climbing years he'd finish near guys like Gilbert more often then guys like Ulrich. In 2006 in the first mountain stage... presumably with the support of the discovery channel team as a GC threat... he finished 46th... 21 minutes down to Landis, Leipheimer and Menchov. His climbing was on par with Botcharov and Lefervre.

Also not sure you want to use the 2006 Tour as a test case. You may recall there was a big disincentive to dope that year. A little something to do with a gynecologist.
 
frenchfry said:
I am only going by memory, but I seem to recall Hincapie (and most of Discovery) pulling the peloton through the Alps day after day and not just at the bottom of the climbs. Then, as if all that work made him stronger rather than tired as it might a mere mortal, after about 200km and numerous cols he sucked Pereiro's wheel for a pretty good distance on the last climb until outsprinting him for the victory, keeping in mind that Pereiro was among the top climbers at that time.

All in all a pretty remarkable performance for a guy billed as a classics rider.

I like.

I do remember once seeing him 200km into a stage with hands off the bars chatting to some guys around him and cleaning his glasses whilst riding the entire peloton off his wheels at 55km p/h.
 
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thehog said:
I quote to prove you wrong again!!! :p:p

"Deutsche Telekom had said it wanted T-Mobile to re-hire Jaksche when his ban expires. Both Jaksche and Deutsche Telekom would have benefited from the arrangement, because both were deeply embroiled in the doping mire and were looking for a way to get out. "An idea failed, and it was the only reasonable one," says Jaksche. "The withdrawal has closed a door for me.""

You only proved that Jaksche told some media he was the reason why T-Mobile quit. I can provide you with plenty of stories saying that Armstrong is a great guy, loyal to his wife, beloved by teammates....this does not make it the case.

The list of reasons Telekom pulled out is long. Jaksche is on the bottom of that list.....if he is on it at all.
 
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kurtinsc said:
If anything, his exploits in terms of dropping people from the pack weren't any different then what Cancellera has done the last couple of years...

bad example, very bad example.. :confused:
 
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frenchfry said:
I am only going by memory, but I seem to recall Hincapie (and most of Discovery) pulling the peloton through the Alps day after day and not just at the bottom of the climbs. Then, as if all that work made him stronger rather than tired as it might a mere mortal, after about 200km and numerous cols he sucked Pereiro's wheel for a pretty good distance on the last climb until outsprinting him for the victory, keeping in mind that Pereiro was among the top climbers at that time.

All in all a pretty remarkable performance for a guy billed as a classics rider.


I think you are mistaken in thinking Pereiro was a top climber in 2005.

Other then his breakaway's in stage 15, 16 and 19 (which got him a 2nd to Hincapie, a win and 4th place), he did very little in the mountains. He was finishing back with Boogerd, Philipe Gilbert... and yes Hincapie on those stages where he didn't attack early.

People see Periero's win in 2006 and think he was a top level climber. He really wasn't. He was an adequate climber (better then Hincapie for sure, but not anywhere near the Cadel Evans/Levi Leipheimer/Denis Menchov class) who got 30 minutes on a stage because he wasn't viewed as a real threat and managed to hold on (after Landis got DQ'd).

Hincapies win was no different then Gerrans' win in 2008. Egoi Martinez and Pererio are comparable when it comes to climbing ability.
 
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thehog said:
I like.

I do remember once seeing him 200km into a stage with hands off the bars chatting to some guys around him and cleaning his glasses whilst riding the entire peloton off his wheels at 55km p/h.

Explain how you ride the entire pelaton of your wheel while chatting to "some guys". Were they on motorcycles filming the race?
 
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dimspace said:
bad example, very bad example.. :confused:

Look, I'm not saying he's doped or not doped. I don't know and don't really care. I'm just saying this idea that he was some sort of great climber as "proof" of doping is silly. There are a fair number of riders who are classics or more flat terrain riders who have done similar things in grand tours. Jens Voigt. Cancellera. Zabel. Phillipe Gilbert. Tons of others who have hung on during a break to the tail of a better climber then won a sprint for the stage win and can ride a decent pace at the front of the pelaton going up an ascent.

He was NEVER a great or even good climber. He's not even in the Jens Voigt class... who's got a very similar build.

Perhaps I didn't pay enough attention at the time, but I simply don't remember him ever decimating a pelaton midway up a long climb... not to the point that any good climber was dropped. He could hang on to finish with the better climbers if a group of 30 made it to the finish... but he'd be way back if the pace was pushed to the point that only 10 or so made it to the end together. Guys like Landis were the ones who rode the pace on those stages for Armstrong.
 
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kurtinsc said:
Perhaps I didn't pay enough attention at the time, but I simply don't remember him ever decimating a pelaton midway up a long climb....

i dont either.. he was usually the last one their with lance, but that was usually on shear guts than anything, certainly not on climbing ability..

was just the cancellara comparison was unfortunate.. there are many who doubt his achievements myself included
 
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Race Radio said:
I do not sell "Das Handy" but nice try. I work for the Telekom, not T-Mobile.

I was traveling in a series of meetings with a board member during the summer of 2007. The day of Sinkewitz's positive we had breakfast and he already had received an email about it (It was not in the media yet). He was ****ed and said we were done. Within a few months this view was confirmed and the sponsorship was ended. There was never a demand to take back Sinkewitz, quite the opposite.

I am very proud to work for Telekom. You will find this same feeling with most of the people I work with who often have put in 20-30 years with the company. For 18 months the team was a constant source of embarrassment.

Did Lorenzo Bernucci failing a test for Sibutramine whilst he was riding the Vuelta play a part in the decision making, or were they going to pull-out anyway? They also fired Honchar in June '07 for dodgy blood values (I find it hard to believe he was not jacked for his two TT wins in the '06 TdF).
 

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