Remco Evenepoel

[Arrowfarm]

Re: Re:

Do you think Remco was doping at 16 when he ran his first half-marathon at 16 in 1 hr 16 minutes. Look cycling has a lot of issues with doping but Remco has freakish genetics. Showing up at half marathon at 16 with no training and putting in that kind of time suggests he had the potential to be top marathon runner so it’s not like he’s been just like everyone else from the beginning. The guy has legendary stamina.

This, all day long.

Look, it's naive to think the guy will crack the top tier of the peloton and stay clean, but it's hard to imagine a pro team doping a guy like this at such a young age. He could be doing something alone, but I just don't see any evidence of it. His progression looks like natural talents used to look before the EPO days.

Didn't know there was an age restriction on doping.

I'm sure I didn't say there was.

What incentive does DQS have to dope a 19-year-old who is under no pressure to win anything? Who they are keeping out of all the big races so he can grow and develop? Absolutely none. They are being careful and taking their time with him, as they should. As historically all big champions have been fostered.

Doping a kid like this would be idiotic. Doesn't mean it's impossible that the kid is doing something himself or some other way outside the team. But an outfit like DQS? That would make no sense whatsoever.

It's not a black and white world these guys live in. It's a world governed by incentives. As such, you can bet the team is keeping him far away from that nonsense for the time being.

Get outta here. In pro sports where winning is EVERYTHING, you say there is no incentive to dope a certain rider.

Not saying he´s not talented, but a junior moving up to dominate WT races is just ridiculous.

Maybe, just maybe it isn`t the team telling him to dope in his first years, but his own will to win. Maybe HE just wants it more, so he does what it takes. Or maybe the team has all the incentives in the world to help him with his doping.

 

[hrotha]

Re:

Zakarin got banned at 19 for doping. Even though rationally it does not make sense to dope at that age, illogical events have happened before

Note that I'm talking about DQS doping them youngsters, not about a crap team doing it or about Evenepoel doing it on his own.

 

[red_flanders]

Re: Re:

Do you think Remco was doping at 16 when he ran his first half-marathon at 16 in 1 hr 16 minutes. Look cycling has a lot of issues with doping but Remco has freakish genetics. Showing up at half marathon at 16 with no training and putting in that kind of time suggests he had the potential to be top marathon runner so it’s not like he’s been just like everyone else from the beginning. The guy has legendary stamina.

This, all day long.

Look, it's naive to think the guy will crack the top tier of the peloton and stay clean, but it's hard to imagine a pro team doping a guy like this at such a young age. He could be doing something alone, but I just don't see any evidence of it. His progression looks like natural talents used to look before the EPO days.

Didn't know there was an age restriction on doping.

I'm sure I didn't say there was.

What incentive does DQS have to dope a 19-year-old who is under no pressure to win anything? Who they are keeping out of all the big races so he can grow and develop? Absolutely none. They are being careful and taking their time with him, as they should. As historically all big champions have been fostered.

Doping a kid like this would be idiotic. Doesn't mean it's impossible that the kid is doing something himself or some other way outside the team. But an outfit like DQS? That would make no sense whatsoever.

It's not a black and white world these guys live in. It's a world governed by incentives. As such, you can bet the team is keeping him far away from that nonsense for the time being.

Get outta here. In pro sports where winning is EVERYTHING, you say there is no incentive to dope a certain rider.

Not saying he´s not talented, but a junior moving up to dominate WT races is just ridiculous.

Maybe, just maybe it isn`t the team telling him to dope in his first years, but his own will to win. Maybe HE just wants it more, so he does what it takes. Or maybe the team has all the incentives in the world to help him with his doping.

Yes, maybe...as I said above...and you quoted it.

If the team had all the incentive in the world for him to win now they would not be holding him out of all the big races. they are pointedly trying not to over cook or overburden him early. Do ping him would kimda go directly against that. Even pros who dope aren't doping all the time, their whole careers. As I said it's not black and white. He's there to learn and grow. Plenty of time for all that later If necessary.

Not sure what the dipping argument is here, really. Seems unlikely but if he is, surely no one is suggesting he's on some ultra sophisticated program, or some better dope than everyone else? No. So no matter how you cut it the kid is a freak talent.

 

[Red Rick]

Doping also enables you to recover better so you can actually increase your training load. Also you can start finetuning his program a bit early.

Unless we'd assume QS is wholly clean I don't see many reasons why Evenepoel would be. Still a great talent ofcourse, not denying that.

 

[roundabout]

God help all if he 'really' starts doping, eh?

 

[spalco]

I mean, we can't know he's clean, but he's one of the prime examples of "talent shows early", that's often used against certain other riders.

Doesn't Evenepoel look like what guys like Hinault or Lemond looked like when the were starting out?

 

[jflemaire]

Re: Re:

Not saying he´s not talented, but a junior moving up to dominate WT races is just ridiculous.

What WT races has Evenepoel dominated?

 

[red_flanders]

Re:

I mean, we can't know he's clean, but he's one of the prime examples of "talent shows early", that's often used against certain other riders.

Doesn't Evenepoel look like what guys like Hinault or Lemond looked like when the were starting out?

Yup, exactly.

Lemond started winning in Europe at 19. The Badger was was before my time but looks like he turned pro at 20, won LBL at 22 and both the Tour and the Vuelta at 23.

 

[wansteadimp]

Are we assuming that academies of top flight football clubs (PSV & Anderlecht in this case) are clean and never try to enhance the development of any of their youngsters?

 

[red_flanders]

Re:

Are we assuming that academies of top flight football clubs (PSV & Anderlecht in this case) are clean and never try to enhance the development of any of their youngsters?

No. We're talking about cycling and no one used the word "never". Why make such a leap in logic?

We're talking about what's likely, since we don't know what is actually happening. In cycling there has long been a tradition, or rather a view, that racing young riders hard (monuments, GT's, long classics) is a mistake as it burns them out and impedes their development. It's not futbol. This is especially true for major, generational talents, who teams tend to not want to burn out, and who teams want to foster and grow in the best way they can. Doping them would run directly contrary to all of this, and as such seems very unlikely to be the approach a team would take. Obviously that's an opinion, but I'd claim it's an informed one and is supported by how teams have raced young champions over the years, particularly European teams who are closer to the traditions of the sport.

 

[spalco]

Makes no sense to dope a 15 year old soccer player either (unless exceptional case like Messi I guess). Nobody cares about results or goals at that age, it's about developing understanding of tactics and ball skills. Being able to run around the pitch for longer than the others or having a large biceps won't make a talent stand out to the scouts.

They might be using some illegal stuff for recuperation, maybe even testosterone or something occasionally but even that I kind of doubt.

 

[gillan1969]

Re: Re:

I mean, we can't know he's clean, but he's one of the prime examples of "talent shows early", that's often used against certain other riders.

Doesn't Evenepoel look like what guys like Hinault or Lemond looked like when the were starting out?

Yup, exactly.

Lemond started winning in Europe at 19. The Badger was was before my time but looks like he turned pro at 20, won LBL at 22 and both the Tour and the Vuelta at 23.

agreed...Thomas has just called froome one of the "greatest cyclists of all time"...which sticks in the throat bearing in mind what he was doing until he was 27...whilst hiding in plain sight as a full time cyclist. What one of the greatest cyclists of all time looks like is this guy...here's hoping his career progresses as his talent suggests it should.....

 

[wansteadimp]

Re: Re:

Are we assuming that academies of top flight football clubs (PSV & Anderlecht in this case) are clean and never try to enhance the development of any of their youngsters?

No. We're talking about cycling and no one used the word "never". Why make such a leap in logic?

We're talking about what's likely, since we don't know what is actually happening. In cycling there has long been a tradition, or rather a view, that racing young riders hard (monuments, GT's, long classics) is a mistake as it burns them out and impedes their development. It's not futbol. This is especially true for major, generational talents, who teams tend to not want to burn out, and who teams want to foster and grow in the best way they can. Doping them would run directly contrary to all of this, and as such seems very unlikely to be the approach a team would take. Obviously that's an opinion, but I'd claim it's an informed one and is supported by how teams have raced young champions over the years, particularly European teams who are closer to the traditions of the sport.

I'll bow to you knowledge on what cycling teams do with youngsters. My point was what if Remco's endurance comes from doping by the football teams he was involved with before he got to cycling?

Endurance is a significant part of football - you can have all the skills in the world but if you can't get around the pitch for the whole match its no use.

I would be amazed if teenager football players weren't doping on their own or more likely on a team led program. The rewards for success are enormous - to the player and his family and to the teams from transfer fees - why wouldn't they be trying to maximize their return?

Football is probably dirtier than cycling - its just better at hiding it and when it does break cover they sweep it under the carpet better.

Who gets more grief for gaming the system and getting off a positive drug test Froome or Guardiola?

 

[red_flanders]

Re: Re:

I'll bow to you knowledge on what cycling teams do with youngsters. My point was what if Remco's endurance comes from doping by the football teams he was involved with before he got to cycling?

Endurance is a significant part of football - you can have all the skills in the world but if you can't get around the pitch for the whole match its no use.

I would be amazed if teenager football players weren't doping on their own or more likely on a team led program. The rewards for success are enormous - to the player and his family and to the teams from transfer fees - why wouldn't they be trying to maximize their return?

Football is probably dirtier than cycling - its just better at hiding it and when it does break cover they sweep it under the carpet better.

Who gets more grief for gaming the system and getting off a positive drug test Froome or Guardiola?

Gotcha, thanks for the clarification. Yeah, no idea, futbol is certainly as dirty as it gets. And who knows, Evenepoel may certainly be doping on his own. I would just personally be pretty surprised if the team were at it with him.

 

[Red Rick]

Re:

Makes no sense to dope a 15 year old soccer player either (unless exceptional case like Messi I guess). Nobody cares about results or goals at that age, it's about developing understanding of tactics and ball skills. Being able to run around the pitch for longer than the others or having a large biceps won't make a talent stand out to the scouts.

They might be using some illegal stuff for recuperation, maybe even testosterone or something occasionally but even that I kind of doubt.

I know from personal experience there's definitely juniors in sports who at least get advised by coaches to start using doping at a really early age, though I suppose 13 year olds taking growth hormones is more common in sports where height is a bigger advantage.

And I disagree that results don't matter at that age. In many sports kids do need to get results to keep funding from national associations if they can't pay for all the training and travel themselves.

 

[Flamin]

Agree with red_flanders. It's hard to imagine DQS already encourages him to dope. He's that good that it would actually make more sense to keep him away from it, for now. He's the greatest talent in Belgium since Merckx, the new national treasure of a cycling-mad country. Who'd want to be responsible for potentially destroying it at this stage?

I assume he's just on the very best legal stuff like ketones.

 

[Arrowfarm]

Re: Re:

This, all day long.

Look, it's naive to think the guy will crack the top tier of the peloton and stay clean, but it's hard to imagine a pro team doping a guy like this at such a young age. He could be doing something alone, but I just don't see any evidence of it. His progression looks like natural talents used to look before the EPO days.

Didn't know there was an age restriction on doping.

I'm sure I didn't say there was.

What incentive does DQS have to dope a 19-year-old who is under no pressure to win anything? Who they are keeping out of all the big races so he can grow and develop? Absolutely none. They are being careful and taking their time with him, as they should. As historically all big champions have been fostered.

Doping a kid like this would be idiotic. Doesn't mean it's impossible that the kid is doing something himself or some other way outside the team. But an outfit like DQS? That would make no sense whatsoever.

It's not a black and white world these guys live in. It's a world governed by incentives. As such, you can bet the team is keeping him far away from that nonsense for the time being.

Get outta here. In pro sports where winning is EVERYTHING, you say there is no incentive to dope a certain rider.

Not saying he´s not talented, but a junior moving up to dominate WT races is just ridiculous.

Maybe, just maybe it isn`t the team telling him to dope in his first years, but his own will to win. Maybe HE just wants it more, so he does what it takes. Or maybe the team has all the incentives in the world to help him with his doping.

Yes, maybe...as I said above...and you quoted it.

If the team had all the incentive in the world for him to win now they would not be holding him out of all the big races. they are pointedly trying not to over cook or overburden him early. Do ping him would kimda go directly against that. Even pros who dope aren't doping all the time, their whole careers. As I said it's not black and white. He's there to learn and grow. Plenty of time for all that later If necessary.

Not sure what the dipping argument is here, really. Seems unlikely but if he is, surely no one is suggesting he's on some ultra sophisticated program, or some better dope than everyone else? No. So no matter how you cut it the kid is a freak talent.

Yeah. And as I wrote, and you quoted, I`m not saying he is not talented.
I`m simply not buying the “the team has no incentive to dope him” or “hard to imagine they would dope him” at all.
This is cycling and he`s on a shady-as-*** team with bucketloads of doping relations.
The way I see it, there certainly are incentives on all sides here, to help him make the most of his talent, and in cycling, that means doping.

Have a good one.

 

[Roninho]

Re: Re:

Are we assuming that academies of top flight football clubs (PSV & Anderlecht in this case) are clean and never try to enhance the development of any of their youngsters?

No. We're talking about cycling and no one used the word "never". Why make such a leap in logic?

We're talking about what's likely, since we don't know what is actually happening. In cycling there has long been a tradition, or rather a view, that racing young riders hard (monuments, GT's, long classics) is a mistake as it burns them out and impedes their development. It's not futbol. This is especially true for major, generational talents, who teams tend to not want to burn out, and who teams want to foster and grow in the best way they can. Doping them would run directly contrary to all of this, and as such seems very unlikely to be the approach a team would take. Obviously that's an opinion, but I'd claim it's an informed one and is supported by how teams have raced young champions over the years, particularly European teams who are closer to the traditions of the sport.

I'll bow to you knowledge on what cycling teams do with youngsters. My point was what if Remco's endurance comes from doping by the football teams he was involved with before he got to cycling?

Endurance is a significant part of football - you can have all the skills in the world but if you can't get around the pitch for the whole match its no use.

I would be amazed if teenager football players weren't doping on their own or more likely on a team led program. The rewards for success are enormous - to the player and his family and to the teams from transfer fees - why wouldn't they be trying to maximize their return?

Football is probably dirtier than cycling - its just better at hiding it and when it does break cover they sweep it under the carpet better.

Who gets more grief for gaming the system and getting off a positive drug test Froome or Guardiola?

I think there is massive doping in football.
Having said that i would be very surprised to see a club led doping programme at the youth teams of Anderlecht.
The simple reason for this is that over 90% of the 15 year olds at anderlecht will never play in the first team of anderlecht and 75% will not even make it for another pro team. Doping these kids when in 2-3 years time most will have been "sacked" by anderlechr seems like a recipe to get an unhappy kid to spill the beans on the doping effor.
especially with them being underaged they dont have to worry about legal risks.
Imo those risks make it a stupid plan to begin with, but it becomes even less attractive when you take into account thst the rewards will be minimal. We are talking about 1, maybe 2 kids of the team making it anyway, is that sufficient reward?

 

[Bolder]

Age has almost zero to do with doping. There are tens of thousands of U.S. high school and college athletes who dope for football/baseball/basketball etc. When I was in college 30 years ago I had a close friend on the baseball team, and a bunch of their players were taking growth steroids on their own, mostly in the summer. It wasn't even an open secret. They bragged about it. These were 18- and 19 year old kids. (by the way, that stuff works)

I think in Remco's case it would be about context. Because he's so highly supervised I would really think DQS is keeping him on the straight and narrow. If he gets to the point where he's a real threat to the top pros, then perhaps he'll be integrated somehow into the PED culture. But I think we should give him and DQS the benefit of the doubt for now -- and hopefully forever.

 

[F_Cance]

give DQS the benefit of the doubt? No team is more fishy than them. Lefevere, Van Mol, Ibarguren. All of them should have been banned from pro cycling a long time ago.

 

[hrotha]

Yeah, if DQS is keeping him clean for now it will be simply because they think that's the best way to maximize his potential and fully intending to introduce him to a program in the future, not because of any ethical concerns.

 

[wansteadimp]

I'm beginning to think we might need a "Belgian's don't dope thread".

 

[simoni]

Re:

Being able to run around the pitch for longer than the others or having a large biceps won't make a talent stand out to the scouts.

Apart from the innumerable players who have been rejected at an early age because they are too slow or too small?

It not safe to assume that football clubs don't dope players (or players do it themselves) in my opinion. The financial rewards and glory are there to be had and there is no greater motivator to cheat.

 

[red_flanders]

Re:

Yeah, if DQS is keeping him clean for now it will be simply because they think that's the best way to maximize his potential and fully intending to introduce him to a program in the future, not because of any ethical concerns.

+1

 

[King Boonen]

Re: Re:

I think there is massive doping in football.
Having said that i would be very surprised to see a club led doping programme at the youth teams of Anderlecht.
The simple reason for this is that over 90% of the 15 year olds at anderlecht will never play in the first team of anderlecht and 75% will not even make it for another pro team. Doping these kids when in 2-3 years time most will have been "sacked" by anderlechr seems like a recipe to get an unhappy kid to spill the beans on the doping effor.
especially with them being underaged they dont have to worry about legal risks.
Imo those risks make it a stupid plan to begin with, but it becomes even less attractive when you take into account thst the rewards will be minimal. We are talking about 1, maybe 2 kids of the team making it anyway, is that sufficient reward?

This is very well reasoned, especially these days when people care, or at least pretend to care, more about doping. I doubt they do much to discourage it, but I agree that's team-led doping programmes at the youth level in football seem quite unlikely.