Riis close to Collapse after Contador 'surprise'?

[Jaskula]

Considering some of the quotes in the above it appears to me the following scenario isn't unlikely...

Riis kept a doping programme running for the top riders - whether motivation was purely because "they had to" or because he loves it. However, managing risks was key and so even internally on the team there was a public, vocal anti-doping stance. This would keep the practice to the few riders with other people not knowing or suspecting anything.

THis is very likely and exactly what Jaksche implies. It goes without saying that Carlos "I never crossed that bridge" Sastre would've been one of the filthy few.

/J

 

[I Watch Cycling In July]

I think it's very interesting too. Hopefully it's simply because they know Tyler doped, they know Riis doped and they know the story is not unlikely. So while they might themselves not have seen or witnessed a thing it could still be a possibility. I hope you're right in your second part. It's extremely difficult believing Birillo did it on his own... There's still that funny transfer from the Schleck and the rumour he and Riis were seen in Madrid...

Birrilo and the Schleck transfer were 2006, so presumably as a result of pre-puerto introductions. So I don't see how that changes what we think about what Riis has done after Puerto, or is that not what you meant? When we're Riis and FS supposed to be seen in Madrid? Haven't heard about that one.

I agree with your take on the overall pattern. Jaksches comments in particular point to the idea that a few select riders were referred to Fuentes by CSC, not the whole team.

Thanks for all the info.

Edit: Pretty sure Sastre's 2008 TT was a really good TT for anyone, not just a good TT for Sastre.

 

[JPM London]

Birrilo and the Schleck transfer were 2006, so presumably as a result of pre-puerto introductions. So I don't see how that changes what we think about what Riis has done after Puerto, or is that not what you meant? When we're Riis and FS supposed to be seen in Madrid? Haven't heard about that one.

Edit: Pretty sure Sastre's 2008 TT was a really good TT for anyone, not just a good TT for Sastre.

I think my point was that Basso was before Puerto - so fine with the timeline, but just one of the many connections to back it up in general. My mistake about Schleck - mixed up the timing of the payment and when it became public, so timeline's fine here as well! Basically - there are no connections after Puerto...

Sastre - yeah, probably was...

 

[JPM London]

Something else interesting - never heard about Giovanni Lombardi before. He's no doubt mentioned on here before, guess I don't read enough...

Veloropa:

"It is also a fact that Ivan Basso when he finally admitted to having been involved in Operation Puerto scandal, said that he had been referred to Eufemiano Fuentes by Luigi Cecchini.

Similarly, we know that Basso's good friend, manager and former teammate at Team CSC, Giovanni Lombardi, live (or at that time, lived) in Madrid, which also Fuentes was domiciled.

We know also that Lombardi is also manager of the Schleck brothers, where older brother Frank Schleck in 2008 was in trouble, as it turned out, he had transferred 7,000 Euros to an account in the Spanish doping doctor's name."

 

[JPM London]

When we're Riis and FS supposed to be seen in Madrid? Haven't heard about that one.

Sorry - forgot about this bit...

I can't find the story anywhere and I might be mixing it up!!!
A few days ago I mentioned the story about how Canc and Riis had been seen together in Madrid (don't remember which thread) and was then told by someone that it wasn't Canc, but Frank.

I know there was a story at some point about Riis being spotted in Madrid with one of his stars, but can't find it! Help - anyone?

 

[Jaskula]

Jörg Jaksche in extenso

The JJ-interview appeared rather cut up in the post above. He makes other implications that confirm the existence of double standards of practises and politics regarding within the CSC team:

- During one of my first meetings with Fuentes, he said that he was surprised that I hadn't been sent to see him by Team CSC already last year, says Jörg Jaksche to Ekstra Bladet.

- I could not help but assume that he had already received visits from several riders who had been referred to him by the management at Team CSC. And he had thus also expected to see me at the clinic sooner.

- I got the clear impression that several CSC riders had been sent to Madrid to visit Fuentes. It was not something individual. It was an organized with a clear logic, according to which riders on a certain level was sent to Fuentes.

- That's why Fuentes was amazed that I had not come the year before, says Jaksche, who in his only season at Team CSC, 2004, won the important stage race Paris-Nice and then certainly belonged to group of riders on 'a certain level '.

Jaksche stresses that he never has seen Riis and Fuentes together, and that he never heard one of the two mention the other by name. But he's certain that they know each other.

- Bjarne Riis was no anti-doping crusader. It's good for his and the team's image to launch an internal anti-doping program, and it's fine to tell how many doping tests that have been negative, says Jaksche.

Link

Sound considerations from the German as always. They can't be written of with the usual ad hominem arguments.

/J

 

[I Watch Cycling In July]

Something else interesting - never heard about Giovanni Lombardi before. He's no doubt mentioned on here before, guess I don't read enough...

Veloropa:

"It is also a fact that Ivan Basso when he finally admitted to having been involved in Operation Puerto scandal, said that he had been referred to Eufemiano Fuentes by Luigi Cecchini.

Similarly, we know that Basso's good friend, manager and former teammate at Team CSC, Giovanni Lombardi, live (or at that time, lived) in Madrid, which also Fuentes was domiciled.

We know also that Lombardi is also manager of the Schleck brothers, where older brother Frank Schleck in 2008 was in trouble, as it turned out, he had transferred 7,000 Euros to an account in the Spanish doping doctor's name."

Cosy.

Looking at all this info from the other direction though, can we now suspect the majority of CSC riders were CLEAN through much of the noughties?

 

[hrotha]

Weird. Jaksche was a very good rider at CSC, and furthermore, he had ridden for ONCE and Telekom, so Riis could safely assume he'd be willing to work with Fuentes. The program must have been extremely limited in its scope if Jaksche couldn't have a place in it. Only the absolute team leaders, perhaps.

The info is pre-2006, but the philosophy behind it isn't very consistent with CSC guys like Julich or Zabriskie who were flying, or with the level the whole team showed in the mountains around 2008. Maybe guys like Julich and Zabriskie were doing their own thing, though.

 

[webvan]

So the question is why JJ was not referred to Fuentes? Can't be that he wasn't good enough for sure...maybe because Riis didn't trust him or knew he was leaving? Why did he only stay one year there?

Besides he said he doped during all his career so he was also doping during his time at CSC, just not with Fuentes?

 

[sittingbison]

...Pretty sure Sastre's 2008 TT was a really good TT for anyone, not just a good TT for Sastre.

2006 Evans beat Sastre by about 60s over 57km, finishing a minute behinf Peirero (who was chasing Floyd), but equal with Zabriskie and Ekimov. Neither could win.

2007 Evans beat Sastre by about 2:30 over 55km (2nd 51s down on Levi, put 1:30 into Contador), but Carlos was already 6m behind Contador

2008 Evans beat Sastre by 29s over 53km, who had a 1:34 lead reduced to 1:05. Won by Schumacher lol so Evans was 1:44 down on Cancellara but less than a minute on CVV and Kirchen, and 30s to Millar, so roughly the same.

Essentially Evans performed about normal each time, Sastre improved by 2mins from year before but only 30s year before that, but had something to fight for. Its not terribly suspicious, they both ebbed and flowed like you would expect a normal person to. I think the commentary of Phil and Paul has warped the 2008 result, as they talked up Evans and downplayed Sastre by not looking at 2006. Who knows

 

[JPM London]

Cosy.

Looking at all this info from the other direction though, can we now suspect the majority of CSC riders were CLEAN through much of the noughties?

You can't just throw random suspicions like that around without the slightest bit of proof

I think you're right - however, I also know that Nicki Sorensen back in the 90s was linked to George Moutton along with about a dozen other Danish riders. And one of those riders did admit to the treatments received from Moutton and the codes used (EPO etc), so there's a disappointing link there in any case. In the end, though, who wasn't doped back then? I for one do believe that most of the team - including Nicki - has been clean for many years. PLEASE NOTE: I'm not saying Nicki did dope back in time at any point, I jsut know he was connected to Moutton at a point in time when Moutton did dope other riders...

So the question is why JJ was not referred to Fuentes? Can't be that he wasn't good enough for sure...maybe because Riis didn't trust him or knew he was leaving? Why did he only stay one year there?

Besides he said he doped during all his career so he was also doping during his time at CSC, just not with Fuentes?

Interesting thoughts...

 

[Frosty]

Not sure of the details but werent only one or two T-mobile riders known to be involved with Fuentes, yet there is some evidence (Freiburg?) which suggests that at least some of the rest werent clean? not saying that CSC was the same but maybe shows that using Fuentes isnt necessarily the only method a team employs?

 

[hrotha]

Oh, definitely. Jaksche said he doped at CSC and talked about it with Riis, but it's weird that he was left to his own devices. Maybe Riis is just tight-fisted and though Fuentes was too expensive (but then again, wasn't paying for the program up to the rider?).

 

[Opalius]

Just posted old stuff

 

[webvan]

Let's put that throught the translator but that pic is great, "how are you doing today Jorg, wink, wink..."

 

[sniper]

we shouldn't forget either that shortly before Jaksche came clean (2007) Riis threatened him that if J would mention other riders in his confession, R would see to it that J would never return to cycling.
http://www.spiegel.de/sport/sonst/doping-gestaendnis-riis-soll-jaksche-gedroht-haben-a-514234.html

 

[webvan]

...and this is exactly what happened, so Riis is a cheat, an enabler, a bully...WTH is he still doing managing a team!

 

[JPM London]

Not sure of the details but werent only one or two T-mobile riders known to be involved with Fuentes, yet there is some evidence (Freiburg?) which suggests that at least some of the rest werent clean? not saying that CSC was the same but maybe shows that using Fuentes isnt necessarily the only method a team employs?

The whole Telekom/Freiburg thing is not less interesting now that Tyler is quoted as claiming Riis had transfusions in 96...

Each connection coming from the USADA case and Tyler book might draw lines further and further away...

 

[JPM London]

we shouldn't forget either that shortly before Jaksche came clean (2007) Riis threatened him that if J would mention other riders in his confession, R would see to it that J would never return to cycling.
http://www.spiegel.de/sport/sonst/doping-gestaendnis-riis-soll-jaksche-gedroht-haben-a-514234.html

A story which JJ later changed - however, that doesn't mean it might not be true

 

[webvan]

Really ? No wonder everyone lost interest in what JJ had to say then...

Interesting about the transfusions indeed in 1996 but when I think of Riis on Hautacam it almost makes me sick now...transfusions are maybe what Echavarri had in mind when he implied that some racers were doing stuff Big Mig wasn't doing, straight EPO was not as efficient possibly. Not directly related but I just found this old article from 1996 just after Big Mig cracked on Les Arcs, couldn't remember he'd attacked there that day actually.

 

[sniper]

A story which JJ later changed - however, that doesn't mean it might not be true

I don't recall that. link?

other consideration: to what extent is/was Riis in bed with UCI?
Could UCI's attempt at covering up Contador's positive be seen in the light of Riis and UCI being in bed together?

EDIT: I do remember back in 2007 Pat stating Riis should give his yellow jersey back, suggesting Pat and Riis may not have been that close.
http://www.welt.de/sport/article906878/Riis-muesste-sein-Gelbes-Trikot-zurueckgeben.html
Other indications pro or contra?

 

[hrotha]

Really ? No wonder everyone lost interest in what JJ had to say then...

Interesting about the transfusions indeed in 1996 but when I think of Riis on Hautacam it almost makes me sick now...transfusions are maybe what Echavarri had in mind when he implied that some racers were doing stuff Big Mig wasn't doing, straight EPO was not as efficient possibly.

No, EPO was easier and more efficient than transfusions. Transfusions only came to the fore when EPO started being detectable.

 

[webvan]

That's what we thought, but why was Riis doing them in 1996 then? According to what he told Hamilton it was giving him an immediate boost...as opposed to EPO I guess.

 

[hrotha]

That's what we thought, but why was Riis doing them in 1996 then? According to what he told Hamilton it was giving him an immediate boost...as opposed to EPO I guess.

Oh, I didn't know it was Hamilton who said that. I'm avoiding the talk about his book because, you know, spoilers.

I suppose since EPO estimulates the production of red blood cells and a transfusion already comes with the red blood cells ready to go, transfusions might take less time to boost your performance. Maybe he used EPO for training and blood transfusions during key races or something?

 

[JPM London]

I don't recall that. link?

other consideration: to what extent is/was Riis in bed with UCI?
Could UCI's attempt at covering up Contador's positive be seen in the light of Riis and UCI being in bed together?

EDIT: I do remember back in 2007 Pat stating Riis should give his yellow jersey back, suggesting Pat and Riis may not have been that close.
http://www.welt.de/sport/article906878/Riis-muesste-sein-Gelbes-Trikot-zurueckgeben.html
Other indications pro or contra?

Don't have a specific link at hand, but should be "up-dig'able". The chain as I remember it - a lot like the Floyd/JV story - was JJ said Riis threatened him when JJ said he'd come clean, Riis then said he didn't threaten, but had definitely said if JJ implicated other people than himself he shouldn't expect to find work in the sport again, after which JJ said Bjarne hadn't threatened him. Now we all know that a threat can be many things - explicit or implicit - and we also know that things can be misunderstood. In that sense it's possible Riis did threaten JJ, but it's also possible he didn't...

It doesn't seem to me that Riis has any kind of good relation w UCI. They did indeed want to stick it to him back then. He wasn't welcom at the Tour (more ASO, I know), they dug out a bike scanner when the story about motorised Canc came out and although they seem to have tried to cover up Conti's pre-Saxo positive, they have been more than happy to make sure Riis won't get any points from him. What went on with the license re-evaluation earlier in the year I have no idea, but it doesn't look like the UCI likes him - he probably refuses to pay them

Compare the apparent difference in treatment between Riis and a certain belgian...

No, EPO was easier and more efficient than transfusions. Transfusions only came to the fore when EPO started being detectable.

Tyler notes Riis did transfusions because it worked faster - EPO wouldn't be as effective DURING a Tour as transfusions would. He no doubt used EPO for his training protocol, but did transfusions during the Tour.

It's extremely interesting to figure out what went on at Telekom in 96...

In his book Riis says one of the reasons he didn't sign Ullrich to CSC was because of Jan's reliance on Pevenage. The strings between Telekom, Freiburg, Riis and Cecchini/Lombardi/Fuentes, Ullrich and Pevenage are all very interesting. It's not only about the dope - it's quite clearly also about who doped who...