Teams & Riders Sepp Kuss is the next Sepp Kuss thread

[RedheadDane]

Roglic won't retire before hugging it out with Fred Wright, dislocating his shoulder in the process

Trying to break poor Fred's ribs?

 

[GenericBoonenFan]

This seems to be an Anglophone media issue because I haven't read anything close to that in Dutch/Belgian or German media.

 

[Extinction]

we hear you load and clear ..you are not happy with the result ....maybe give it a rest now

and one bad day does not make anyone 'the weakest' ..we dont know who the weakest was in this Vuelta

Also dont bother to reply to my message as I am all done having to reply to unnecessary rude obsessive replies. Maybe go out and get some air.

If my "if my aunt had balls" wasn't unnecessarily rude, then I don't know what is. Whereas the results themselves tell the undeniable truth: in 3-up raced mountain finishes and the TT, Kuss was the weakest of the trio. But don't let facts get in the way of silly conclusions. And I'm not unsatisfied with the result, but the obscene manner in which it was achieved. A GT should not be decided at the table within one team. It makes a mockery of the race and is a perversion of the sport.

 

[topcat]

This seems to be an Anglophone media issue because I haven't read anything close to that in Dutch/Belgian or German media.

They’re not the ones who wanted darling Kuss to win. Anyway, I’m glad about the Kuss story, otherwise we’d have nothing to talk about (here).

 

[Nick2413]

It’s a pity this couldn’t have been raced out. I was pulling for Kuss and I think he may have been able to hang on if allowed to fight on stage 14 and 16, and rest of week 3. But this really is the kind of thing that takes away the value of what it means to win, even if it’s uncomfortable to accept. Which is unfair to all 3 of them.

 

[perico]

May I suggest that you illustrate your point with an example? The 2011 Vuelta. Froome was a dom, Wiggins was the captain. Does @Extinction think that Froome's role in that race was the best use of his abilities? Should he have stayed with Wiggins on Angliru?

I can think of a bunch.

1996 Tour de France- Ullrich was stronger than Riis and after Riis took yellow was basically on a leash because he didn’t know what he was doing

1990 Tour- Indurain was stronger than a sick Delgado

2008- the whole Sastre mess

2006- I can’t remember who Oscar Pereiro was riding for off the top of my head since Valverde was out after Puerto

1985- LeMond was undoubtedly the stronger than his leader but was forced to wait for Hinault who was dropped after his crash the previous stages

 

[Libertine Seguros]

2006- I can’t remember who Oscar Pereiro was riding for off the top of my head since Valverde was out after Puerto

Valverde started the 2006 TdF as team leader but crashed out on stage 3.

 

[perico]

Valverde started the 2006 TdF as team leader but crashed out on stage 3.

That’s right. Mancebo was gone to AG2R and was busted. What was CE strategy at that point? They weren’t really shooting for GC until the break since Oscar was already way back

 

[Valv.Piti]

That’s right. Mancebo was gone to AG2R and was busted. What was CE strategy at that point? They weren’t really shooting for GC until the break since Oscar was already way back

Their plan was prolly some Pereiro/Karpets mediocrity top-10 hunting.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Their plan was prolly some Pereiro/Karpets mediocrity top-10 hunting.

Or the Teams Classification, knowing Unzué.

 

[VayaVayaVaya]

I’m American and love Sepp Kuss, but this whole situation is aggravating. All of these takes lashing out at Vingegaard and Roglic (the actual team leaders) for not supporting their “leader” Kuss (the domestique) who was ahead due to a tactical move in support of the leaders, all while simultaneously arguing that Kuss was the strongest and the deserving winner. Just mind boggling cognitive dissonance.

Kuss is fantastic and I’m happy for his success, but you only deserve a win if you beat your opponents straight up. Let’s not call a spade a heart. A spade is a spade is a spade is a spade.

 

[VayaVayaVaya]

Having said that, I want a GC Kuss t-shirt. Hate all y’all want.

 

[Elos Anjos]

I’m American and love Sepp Kuss, but this whole situation is aggravating. All of these takes lashing out at Vingegaard and Roglic (the actual team leaders) for not supporting their “leader” Kuss (the domestique) who was ahead due to a tactical move in support of the leaders, all while simultaneously arguing that Kuss was the strongest and the deserving winner. Just mind boggling cognitive dissonance.

Kuss is fantastic and I’m happy for his success, but you only deserve a win if you beat your opponents straight up. Let’s not call a spade a heart. A spade is a spade is a spade is a spade.

Given Kuss's win, there's a danger that the new American fandom mob of cycling pushes cycling into a version of Hollywood blockbusters and wrestling. It has already been happening in football where results are perhaps not cooked, but matches with certain teams are favoured.

 

[topcat]

For all you Americans I have two words for you: Le Mond.
Vuelta was more WWE than cycling. First Vingo tagged Kuss out, then tagged him in, then Roglic thought about tagging Kuss out but eventually Vingo and Rog decided to let Kuss sit pretty: You got this, you’ve tcb’d it (taken care of business).

 

[Extinction]

It’s a pity this couldn’t have been raced out. I was pulling for Kuss and I think he may have been able to hang on if allowed to fight on stage 14 and 16, and rest of week 3. But this really is the kind of thing that takes away the value of what it means to win, even if it’s uncomfortable to accept. Which is unfair to all 3 of them.

May I suggest that you illustrate your point with an example? The 2011 Vuelta. Froome was a dom, Wiggins was the captain. Does @Extinction think that Froome's role in that race was the best use of his abilities? Should he have stayed with Wiggins on Angliru?

I think Froome's role in cycling was a waste of the sport. And in any case you are comparing apples to oranges. Nothing prevented Kuss from dropping Vingegaard and Roglic, other than his inability to do so. I'm not belittling what you have said and asked, it's just sad and unfortunate that the race ended up this way. I don't begrudge Sepp, mind you, but the Jumbo management that caved in to external pressures in order to satisfy an agenda.

 

[RedheadDane]

I think Froome's role in cycling was a waste of the sport. And in any case you are comparing apples to oranges. Nothing prevented Kuss from dropping Vingegaard and Roglic, other than his inability to do so. I'm not belittling what you have said and asked, it's just sad and unfortunate that the race ended up this way.

Why are you comparing Froome - the riders who was held back despite being stronger - with Kuss - the rider who was declared leader despite being weaker?
If anything, you should compare Kuss with Wiggins.

 

[Extinction]

Why are you comparing Froome - the riders who was held back despite being stronger - with Kuss - the rider who was declared leader despite being weaker?
If anything, you should compare Kuss with Wiggins.

I'm not comparing Froome with anyone, but simply responding to a question that was directed towards me. In fact, I stated that it's comparing apples to oranges, for the very reason you indicate, namely Kuss wasn't stronger than his captains, which is opposite to the what Froome was to Wiggins. What wasn't clear?

 

[RedheadDane]

In fact, I stated that it's comparing apples to oranges, for the very reason you indicate, namely Kuss wasn't stronger than his captain, which is opposite to the what Froome was to Wiggins. What wasn't clear?

Why it was okay for Froome to be held back despite being stronger than Wiggins? The only "reason" - which isn't really a reason - is that the pre-race hierarchy on Sky demanded it.
In this case, the during-the-race hierarchy - settled after stage 17 - made Kuss the leader.

 

[Red Rick]

Browsing results, I do think his Kuss was pretty underestimated. Throughout 2020-2022, he wasn't that consistent even in the mountains. He would always have some days of dropping 25 minutes, some days of being an okay mountain domestique, and only a day or 2 of being a top 5 climber in the race. It was gradually getting better in 2022, but even starting in this Giro he never had a complete off day, and barely dropped below the top 10 GC guys on a stage even if he was working for his leaders. Then in thie Tour he was basically the 3rd best climber in the Pyrenees.

 

[RedheadDane]

Browsing results, I do think his Kuss was pretty underestimated.

Whose Kuss?

 

[Red Rick]

Whose Kuss?

His wifes Kuss

*** now I'm calling his wife a him.

 

[Extinction]

Why it was okay for Froome to be held back despite being stronger than Wiggins? The only "reason" - which isn't really a reason - is that the pre-race hierarchy on Sky demanded it.
In this case, the during-the-race hierarchy - settled after stage 17 - made Kuss the leader.

I get that, which is why any comparison between Froome and Kuss is misplaced. At any rate, the team hiearchy at Jumbo was not settle, but overturned. There is a difference and the reason was not legs, but opportunism, which diminishes the victory and the race.

 

[TrekCyclist]

At the end its also (or first of all?) a team sport.
If the other teams are not able to challenge JV, I am fine with them doing whatever they decide.
If Vingo or Roglic had not won a GT (several, actually) before, there would have been a sense of injustice with this situation.
But like it is now - if they can play Tiki-Taka inside their own penalty area, the others teams should simply try to improve a bit.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

At the end its also (or first of all?) a team sport.
If the other teams are not able to challenge JV, I am fine with them doing whatever they decide.
If Vingo or Roglic had not won a GT (several, actually) before, there would have been a sense of injustice with this situation.
But like it is now - if they can play Tiki-Taka inside their own penalty area, the others teams should simply try to improve a bit.

The problem is, Mikel Landa posted the 5th best Angliru time ever, Wout Poels the 7th, Almeida the 11th, Uijtdebroecks the 15th and Buitrago the 16th. It's not like they're just not at a good enough level. This isn't somebody dropping early 00s US Postal into the 2008 or 2011 Tours where the times were a level below the previous generations. They are putting out absolutely crazy elite climbing levels themselves, and still being outclassed like this, so I think there's more to it than "other teams need to get good". They already are good. They're just being made to look like they're not.

 

[Extinction]

At the end its also (or first of all?) a team sport.
If the other teams are not able to challenge JV, I am fine with them doing whatever they decide.
If Vingo or Roglic had not won a GT (several, actually) before, there would have been a sense of injustice with this situation.
But like it is now - if they can play Tiki-Taka inside their own penalty area, the others teams should simply try to improve a bit.

That's fine, but I doubt the Vuelta organization took kindly to having their race effectively castrated, whilst being decided at the table by one team that monopolized the podium. Such dominance made the race unnecessary to follow once the decision was made to shut the internal competition down, when it could have been the best GT of the year.