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Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

Page 142 - Get up to date with the latest news, scores & standings from the Cycling News Community.
the 81 km ride in Strade was huge ok. but not that outrageous. Visma was below par and the others never worked well together
Exactly, apart from Van Gils, they immediately started racing for second place instead of chasing. Pidcock can say all the WTF he wants, but when Pog attacked he was not even in the picture. The gap was already more than 2 minutes when some kind of chase was organised, Wellens and del Torro did a good job blocking it. Shortly afterwards the pace slowed down and became very uneven. Valter performed about 10 yo-yo's in this period...
 
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You make alot of leaps in your prejudicial analysis. While we know most Americans of a certain team and era all partook of party aids as juniors; Tadej had to be good enough to command attention coming from backwater Slovenia.
That said, the proliferation of former Eastern bloc athletes flooding the pro ranks in tennis, basketball, football, mma and cycling suggest either excellent grassroots coaching or superior pharmacological research. Following drug money out of the Mediterranean it does seem to follow a pattern that way.
What the flying f**k are you talking about? With one hand you claim others for prejudices and yet you have these wild claims based on absolutely BS.
 
What the flying f**k are you talking about? With one hand you claim others for prejudices and yet you have these wild claims based on absolutely BS.
The gentleman claimed : "He already had a pre contract with UAE at that point. They just juiced him up early in his career so they could go 'look, he was always a huge talent'. Once up on a time he lost ITTs to Anthon Charmig and Jonas Gregaard."
No proof including ignoring his actual younger results. That's fairly prejudicial.

My references to Eastern Bloc athletes were meant to be an ironic prejudicial comparison. I've heard American NBA fans muse that Nikola Jovic' must be doped. The guy's game is complete skill and subtlety that comes from practice and natural ability. There's nothing he could have taken to get taller.
Janica Kostelic and Petra Vhlova also come to mind as greats that had natural talent.
 
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He was my idol mate. He really put cycling in the map.
The real problem with Armstrong wasn't the fact he was a doper, but the fact he was a bully.

What he did to the massagist female O'Reilly, was absolutely disgusting, making his life an hell, even called her a prostitute.

Everybody was a doper, indurain, pantani, riis, even the guys from 80s, and doping is part of every sport, not just cycling.

Like i said, my main problem with him, was how he was as a human being.
 
It is possibly more psycho to win from 80 km out while smiling and being Mr. Nice!

At least Lance was an unlikable villain.
Imagine Pog actually really thinks it is like a game, something fun, something to experiment with and see how far he can go? That would be one kind of motivation; playing it like a game that's fun in and off itself?

The other kind of motivation is the one that gives secondary gains; like fame, money, groupies, popularity etc?

Which description fits Armstrong and which description fits Pog? Are they the same or different? (And the other top riders? Remco, MvdP, Van Aert, Rogla, Jonas etc?)

Which of these motivations are most likely to make the best cyclist?

Another factor I see; of Armstrong vs Pog One seemingly lacks the cognitive empathy, while the other seemingly lacks the emotional empathy. Who is who?

These are all of course simplified to the extreme, no one is going to be all into cycling for itself nor is anyone going to be into cycling without liking cycling. But what will be the biggest fuel to their fire? That's what I'm after.

(And why does smiling when obliterating the peleton comes off as more creepy? Because I'd say too; it does 🤣)
 
Indurain used to smile while obliterating the peloton. Nobody thought he was creepy.

Armstrong is a completely different personality.
The real problem with Armstrong wasn't the fact he was a doper, but the fact he was a bully.

What he did to the massagist female O'Reilly, was absolutely disgusting, making his life an hell, even called her a prostitute.

Everybody was a doper, indurain, pantani, riis, even the guys from 80s, and doping is part of every sport, not just cycling.

Like i said, my main problem with him, was how he was as a human being.
Lance was a perfectionist. Even with doping. Agree about his personality.

On the 80s, sure they were doping but oxygen vector doping changed everything. First EPO, then transfusions, then EPO microdosing.
 
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Indurain used to smile while obliterating the peloton. Nobody thought he was creepy.

Armstrong is a completely different personality.

Lance was a perfectionist. Even with doping. Agree about his personality.

On the 80s, sure they were doping but oxygen vector doping changed everything. First EPO, then transfusions, then EPO microdosing.
I think transfusions came before EPO, then there were EPO infused transfusions! Then when the EPO tests came out, transfusions again, then micro-dosing EPO and transfusions.

It's the frickin dopers circle of life
 
These guys are weirdos, nerds, they ain't normal kids.

Maybe this was always the fact for cycling, but it will also factor in with drug responses, sudden increases in abilities etc. Jonas is a good example where extreme structure also likely is part of the explanation to why he showed extreme improvement after joining Rabo. Not saying that means he's clean. Far from it. But these things factor in way more than for the average dudes.

I'm just struck by it. The more I look for narcissism the more autist-ish guys I find 🤣

(And I hope I won't have to explain how neurology and getting a diagnosis ain't the same thing and I'm talking about the neurology here, not trying to diagnose them or those similar to them.)

The way cycling has changed into a sport where everything can be measured and optimized through data also favours nerds in itself.
This is what Tom Dumoulin talked about recently -
"From the age of 15 or 16, these boys often receive the same guidance as the pros. It has become so calculated and structured in terms of training and nutrition. That knowledge was not available when I was sixteen. I didn't know how Michael Boogerd trained, but now every sixteen-year-old can watch Strava and copy what the pros do.”
As mentioned though, Dumoulin also has concerns about the way cycling is going. “I wonder if that will burn them out," he says. "It would certainly burn me out, but they are different character types. I'm a bit of a free bird, an enthusiast. I enjoyed the adventure and the training, but not when the minute and wattage was specified. Another character type, like Remco Evenepoel, thinks that is fantastic. He also says: just write to me what I have to do and what I have to eat. Jonas Vingegaard also does exactly what the trainer says and he loves it, it benefits him. The younger generation is really raised with this and they find it normal.”
This might also explain Vingegaard's mental problem with nerves or whatever it is. I'd still like to know what "Academy" Visma sent Vingegaard to.
 
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This is what Tom Dumoulin talked about recently -

This might also explain Vingegaard's mental problem with nerves or whatever it is. I'd still like to know what "Academy" Visma sent Vingegaard to.
Yup this! This is gonna suit the nerds who struggles with executive functioning, like planning etc. Since it's all scheduled for them they just follow it and do what they shall. They're working hard but are also taken care of like they were children. Because they were always like children with "special needs". If they had normal jobs they might not even have made it. Like this is what they can do and this is what they have to do.

So basically the peleton today are gonna fill up with autist-ish people prepared to have no life from early age and who has the grit to stick to it until they're adults. Those who can't stand it are gonna quit.

Mental health problems are gonna be rampant and they might've been even bigger if they didn't have cycling in their lives. Ironically.

Remco and MvdP outbursts, Jonas introversion. Pog treating it all like a game. Essentially they are all still kids. But they're obsessed with optimazing themselves.

Anything that makes us feel like they're robots is basically what I'm aiming at with my descriptions lol.

So it's not just the doping, it's the poeple on the the bikes too.

(I don't think it's a coincidence that people like Lantern Rouge can succed as a podcast and get hired by teams for tactics either. It's just another side of the same robotic coin :joycat: )
 
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Why is Teddy liked despite some unbelievable performances?

It all started on the 19th of September 2020 in PDBF, where Primoz was sensationally crushed by the Slovenian wonderboy. JV realized Rogla was not enough and they needed a new solution against the UAE's new mutant.

So they decided to develop their own model. From a secret source I know they called it Project Skeletor. Creating a guy with the ultimate climber physique, calves like Parthenon columns and incredible pound per pound power. The first version (2021) couldn't beat the baby-faced machine but Ventoux stage gave hopes for success (Teddy-2020 model clearly had flaws). So they made further improvements for the next year...

The rest is history. Skeletor became the Tour dominator while in his defeats Teddy showed human side a few times and that's why public started liking him more than before. Robotic behaviour of the JV's masterpiece clearly helped as well. What's the next chapter in this story? Time will tell!
 
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will the scientifically technology catch up soon and uncover the frauds who dope? Or is it maybe not even convenient to do so now? How many years must we wait for another bust to go down? I mean a big bust like with Lance.
 
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Why is Teddy liked despite some unbelievable performances?

It all started on the 19th of September 2020 in PDBF, where Primoz was sensationally crushed by the Slovenian wonderboy. JV realized Rogla was not enough and they needed a new solution against the UAE's new mutant.

So they decided to develop their own model. From a secret source I know they called it Project Skeletor. Creating a guy with the ultimate climber physique, calves like Parthenon columns and incredible pound per pound power. The first version (2021) couldn't beat the baby-faced machine but Ventoux stage gave hopes for success (Teddy-2020 model clearly had flaws). So they made further improvements for the next year...

The rest is history. Skeletor became the Tour dominator while in his defeats Teddy showed human side a few times and that's why public started liking him more than before. Robotic behaviour of the JV's masterpiece clearly helped as well. What's the next chapter in this story? Time will tell!
Vingo W/KG matters!

Long live the Vingo's W/KG 😂
 
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I wonder if the trolls would look at Pogacar differently if he at the age of 18 was beating up 17 year olds like Remco, instead of competing against men.

I also wonder if the trolls really believe that winning a 90-kilometre junior race is worth more than, say, fifth place in the Tour of Slovenia and only older guys beat you from WT teams like Majka, Visconti, Haig...

It also makes you wonder why the trolls are so angry because he couldn't win a stage against two years older guys like Mader, Vlasov, Dunbar... even though he beat them easily in GC.

and when did he have a bad ITT? Except for the 2023 World Championship when he was dead for obvious reasons.

itt.jpg
Now compare these results to his pre-UAE time trials.
 
will the scientifically technology catch up soon and uncover the frauds who dope? Or is it maybe not even convenient to do so now? How many years must we wait for another bust to go down? I mean a big bust like with Lance.
ROTFLOL It is more or less there for the most part. I am not sure the political will is there, either for the nations themselves or the UCI.

It will most likely require a national body to have a bit of a "hate on" for a particular rider. At its simplest, that is what resulted in Pharmstrong's demise. If he had stayed retired I think it likely would not have been blown wide open. I mean, other than a few rotten apples, it's been cleanish since Festina, no? ;)

Perhaps someone closer to this matter knows otherwise and whether Armstrong was going to get major targeting before the comeback, etc.?
 
Now compare these results to his pre-UAE time trials.
I think the problem with Toddy's initial ascendency is that pre-UAE he was also a very young rider, so that provides the possibility that contributing factors were physical development and professional support (of the non-doped means). I mean, if Froome's transformation story was enough for many, many people to suspend their disbelief, then Toddy's is at least 100 times better/more plausible.

His continued performances are beyond the pale for me. I cannot agree with Georgie's assessment that it is all genetics. I mean, we can tell ourselves whatever we want to stay in the game ....

I do think there is quite a lot to the level being brought to juniors now. I see locally a degree of professional coaching and equipment that really new, young racers are just so much faster and more aggressive. But they would still get absolutely obliterated by Toddy