Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

[Ripper]

And still he can't win MSR, having great difficulties with MvdP and Vingo.

Well, it is often considered the hardest to win because it is not hard/selective enough. He still torches some very fast/powerful sprinters

 

[Slavique Nuke]

No one worth mentioning from the 2000 generation? LoL. Carlos Rodriguez, Girmay, Van Wilder, Healy, Waerenskjold, Plapp, Ben Tulett, Vauquelin. Plenty of good riders.
He didn't 'jump' when he moved to Quickstep. He was already World, European and national champion RR and ITT. He won nearly everything as a junior? What jump did he make?

Do you understand how a YEAR works?
Carlos Rodriguez - 2001
Grimay - He was in Africa
Healy - September 2000
Plapp - December 2000
Tulett - 2001
Vauquelin - 2001

Something seems to be extremely wrong with you if you don't understand that there are junior races for under-18s, there are U23 races for under-23s, and there are men's races. And yes, Remco completely skipped the U23. He went from one year to the next from U18 world championship title to men's silver. Seems legit.

"Probably the most talented rider ever"? No. Only since he started riding for UAE. If you want to see talent in all age categories, check Evenepoel

Back to your flame trolling comment. Just for the sake of facts. Remco is the one who skipped categories, not Pogacar. Pogacar won one of the most important u18 stage races, won the most important u23 stage race.

There are so many things that could be written about Pogacar, especially after a week of 4 stage wins. But you come up with the idiocy.

 

[AmRacer]

Well, it is often considered the hardest to win because it is not hard/selective enough. He still torches some very fast/powerful sprinters

Poggi's attack should be enough to win, but Mathieu's acceleration to reel him in was from another dimension.

 

[Hugh Januss]

Poggi's attack should be enough to win, but Mathieu's acceleration to reel him in was from another dimension.

Maybe another Galaxy, VDP's acceleration to win MSR leaving behind Pogacar, Van Aert and Ganna last year was interdimensional.

 

[GuntherL1]

Do you understand how a YEAR works?
Carlos Rodriguez - 2001
Grimay - He was in Africa
Healy - September 2000
Plapp - December 2000
Tulett - 2001
Vauquelin - 2001

Something seems to be extremely wrong with you if you don't understand that there are junior races for under-18s, there are U23 races for under-23s, and there are men's races. And yes, Remco completely skipped the U23. He went from one year to the next from U18 world championship title to men's silver. Seems legit

These guys were part of the 2000 generation as first year juniors as juniors cover two years. Are we going to compare juniors only if they're born in the same month? Ffs.
Girmay wasn't 'in Africa'. He rode the world championships and actually beat Evenepoel in Aubel - Thimister - Stavelot.
Sure, Evenepoels silver seems legit as Tarling did something very similar by winning the European ITT, win the Chrono des Nations and finish 3rd in the World ITT. Do you have a problem with that too?

 

[GuntherL1]

Maybe another Galaxy, VDP's acceleration to win MSR leaving behind Pogacar, Van Aert and Ganna last year was interdimensional.

Which was actually a slower Poggio climb than this year.

 

[AmRacer]

Which was actually a slower Poggio climb than this year.

Yes, but the final acceleration was interdimensional. And that was what made difference.

 

[GuntherL1]

Back to your flame trolling comment. Just for the sake of facts. Remco is the one who skipped categories, not Pogacar. Pogacar won one of the most important u18 stage races, won the most important u23 stage race.

There are so many things that could be written about Pogacar, especially after a week of 4 stage wins. But you come up with the idiocy.

Logic is beyond you, isn't it? It's not about skipping categories. Evenepoel was the best junior in history. He continued to win as a senior. So are Tarling or Del Toro. It happens.
Pogacar became SUDDENLY nearly unbeatable in 2019 after signing for UAE. This seems to be understandable for other people on this forum. You're the exception.
If you're impressed by Pogacars victory in the tour de l'Avenir, look how Del Toro won it. He took every jersey as first year U23, won a stage, finished second three times. Now that's impressive.

 

[Slavique Nuke]

These guys were part of the 2000 generation as first year juniors as juniors cover two years. Are we going to compare juniors only if they're born in the same month? Ffs.
Girmay wasn't 'in Africa'. He rode the world championships and actually beat Evenepoel in Aubel - Thimister - Stavelot.
Sure, Evenepoels silver seems legit as Tarling did something very similar by winning the European ITT, win the Chrono des Nations and finish 3rd in the World ITT. Do you have a problem with that too?

A year counts for a lot at this age - being 17 or 18 is not the same thing.

Why would I have a problem with a Tarling's medal? I have no problem with Remco's medal either. But I have no illusions. Someone who finishes in the top places in the biggest races deserves a thread in the 'Clinic'.

Logic is beyond you, isn't it? It's not about skipping categories. Evenepoel was the best junior in history. He continued to win as a senior. So is Tarling or Del Toro. It happens.
Pogacar became SUDDENLY nearly unbeatable in 2019 after signing for UAE. This seems to be understandable for other people on this forum. You're the exception.
If you're impressed by Pogacars victory in the tour de l'Avenir, look how Del Toro won it. He took every jersey as first year U23, won a stage, finished second three times. Now that's impressive.

I'm afraid it's you that logic doesn't support. It was your claim that Remco has proved himself in ALL AGE CATEGORIES and Pogacar has not. I just contradicted it with hard facts. For me, this subject is now closed.

 

[Oldermanish]

It's the sudden change that bothers me. Pogacar was good, but not exceptional in his first four years. He signs for UAE and BOOM. Explain this to me.

You're not paying attention. He was good in 2019 as a youngster against the entire Tour of California. That's also the venue where Alaphillippe showed some serious skills.
That doesn't mean he didn't have help; it means he had the potential....and it's not a motorized bike.

Junior resulst are hugely convoluted by access to resources, even non clinical ones, so I wouldn't put an extreme amount of stock into that.

His performance as an adult is much more disturbing. In a supposed extremely specialized and professional peloton, he's having a laugh with basically everyone.

I think most folks would say the same about Remco. And Jonas.

 

[romanzat]

"Probably the most talented rider ever"? No. Only since he started riding for UAE. If you want to see talent in all age categories, check Evenepoel, Van der Poel, Pedersen and Pidcock.

Damn right. He had no No wins in 2017, no wins in 2018 before first visit to the UAE team laboratory.
After the visit, we can see the results: like win in Tour de l'Avenir. But he didn't win any stage. He had no kick. He never had been on podium of Junior World Championship, not RR, even less in ITT.

Here I have all his ITT results, you can see he is the specialist for Tour de France time trials. Which doesn't make any sense. https://file.si/6Lbl/pogacar-itt-rezultati.xlsx

We can see, he had talent in longer week long races and uphills, but he had no kick, he was not good in sprints, below average in time trials. But in the last few years he is superior in mountains, time trials, in monuments.

 

[Ripper]

And then there is this article:
https://www.cyclingweekly.com/racing/a-defeated-peloton-reacts-to-tadej-pogacars-latest-exhibition-no-one-can-compete-with-him-i-have-never-seen-anything-like-this

Looks like folks are feeling a bit down Some fun quotes:

“Before I always used to ride races to win, but now to be perfectly honest I don’t see how it could be possible when you are racing against a rider like that.”

“So far in this race, if he wanted to, he could have had a chance to win in every stage. That’s pretty scary, but what can you do if someone is in their own league? He is one extra zone above us.”

“But the way they ride is that they want to win everything. I can understand that it can be a bit boring for the spectators, but we try everything to win as well. It’s just they don’t let us win anything.” (in reference to Toddy and Jo Jo)

 

[Mex_17]

there was smoke around Pogacar during the 2021 Tour where other (anonymous) riders said his bike was making weird sounds. it wouldn't shock me if Visma decided to not be cheated the next year and came back with a motor as well.

i will say though, i couldn't see them being this brash and attracting attention like this if they had a motor. there's no reason to motor dope to win Catalunya by 4 minutes (or Galicia for Vinegegaard). i would think they would want to lay low and then unleash it at the Tour.

Mechanical doping is beyond ridiculous. It would be so obvious and easy to detect, and such a death sentence to the rider and team if caught. I guarantee no team is doing anything sketchy with regards to mechanics.

It's easier to dope Pogacar up to his gills, because apparently it's impossible to detect his doping, and his gains are 100 times better than if he had a gas engine in his bike.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

You're not paying attention. He was good in 2019 as a youngster against the entire Tour of California. That's also the venue where Alaphillippe showed some serious skills.
That doesn't mean he didn't have help; it means he had the potential....and it's not a motorized bike.

I think most folks would say the same about Remco. And Jonas.

Vingo specializes in stage races and does s**t in one day races. MVP is a one-day monster but can't climb cols. Teddy? He wins them all! Dominating small climbers in a mountainous stage-race, winning against big boys on cobbles, sprinting against the fastest guys in MSR , top3 in every possible kind of race.

 

[Netserk]

As fast as Pogi is, he is still easily within what blood doping can achieve. I'd imagine that if motor use was common, that wouldn't be the case.

 

[Samu Cuenca]

Mechanical doping is beyond ridiculous. It would be so obvious and easy to detect, and such a death sentence to the rider and team if caught. I guarantee no team is doing anything sketchy with regards to mechanics.

It's easier to dope Pogacar up to his gills, because apparently it's impossible to detect his doping, and his gains are 100 times better than if he had a gas engine in his bike.

If mechanical doping is happening/has happened, it's not been a substitute for doping a rider to the gills, but merely an add-on.

 

[therealthing]

And then there is this article:
https://www.cyclingweekly.com/racing/a-defeated-peloton-reacts-to-tadej-pogacars-latest-exhibition-no-one-can-compete-with-him-i-have-never-seen-anything-like-this

Looks like folks are feeling a bit down Some fun quotes:

“Before I always used to ride races to win, but now to be perfectly honest I don’t see how it could be possible when you are racing against a rider like that.”

“So far in this race, if he wanted to, he could have had a chance to win in every stage. That’s pretty scary, but what can you do if someone is in their own league? He is one extra zone above us.”

“But the way they ride is that they want to win everything. I can understand that it can be a bit boring for the spectators, but we try everything to win as well. It’s just they don’t let us win anything.” (in reference to Toddy and Jo Jo)

You missed the best part. Guillaume Martin: "Something happened in the last two years and the gap has increased further."

 

[Slavique Nuke]

Damn right. He had no No wins in 2017, no wins in 2018 before first visit to the UAE team laboratory.
After the visit, we can see the results: like win in Tour de l'Avenir. But he didn't win any stage. He had no kick. He never had been on podium of Junior World Championship, not RR, even less in ITT.

Here I have all his ITT results, you can see he is the specialist for Tour de France time trials. Which doesn't make any sense. https://file.si/6Lbl/pogacar-itt-rezultati.xlsx

We can see, he had talent in longer week long races and uphills, but he had no kick, he was not good in sprints, below average in time trials. But in the last few years he is superior in mountains, time trials, in monuments.

I wonder if the trolls would look at Pogacar differently if he at the age of 18 was beating up 17 year olds like Remco, instead of competing against men.

I also wonder if the trolls really believe that winning a 90-kilometre junior race is worth more than, say, fifth place in the Tour of Slovenia and only older guys beat you from WT teams like Majka, Visconti, Haig...

It also makes you wonder why the trolls are so angry because he couldn't win a stage against two years older guys like Mader, Vlasov, Dunbar... even though he beat them easily in GC.

and when did he have a bad ITT? Except for the 2023 World Championship when he was dead for obvious reasons.

 

[Peyroteo94]

Pogacar always had a great engine and his TT would always be good because of that, what should really be suspicious is his explosivity.

 

[noob]

I'm struck by something I guess few others are struck by and might even laugh at, but I'm starting to wonder how neurodiversity factors in with doping. Because it's not unusual to have different responses to drugs, unusual metabolism etc if the neurology is different to start with. And I'd nearly call all current top riders (barred Van Aert) neurodiverse. And not on the psychopathic/narcissistic (Armstrong) end but much closer to the extreme opposite. These guys are weirdos, nerds, they ain't normal kids.

Maybe this was always the fact for cycling, but it will also factor in with drug responses, sudden increases in abilities etc. Jonas is a good example where extreme structure also likely is part of the explanation to why he showed extreme improvement after joining Rabo. Not saying that means he's clean. Far from it. But these things factor in way more than for the average dudes.

I'm just struck by it. The more I look for narcissism the more autist-ish guys I find 🤣

(And I hope I won't have to explain how neurology and getting a diagnosis ain't the same thing and I'm talking about the neurology here, not trying to diagnose them or those similar to them.)

The way cycling has changed into a sport where everything can be measured and optimized through data also favours nerds in itself.

 

[Slavique Nuke]

Pogacar always had a great engine and his TT would always be good because of that, what should really be suspicious is his explosivity.

I don't see a problem with his explosiveness when he's racing against riders his own age.

View: https://youtu.be/jDu81QBWsME?si=n1Up5zu3jRPM_zBh&t=1054

 

[nayr497]

Anything you can do, I can do better. I can do everything, better than you ...

I can climb

I can time trial

I can sprint

I can tolerate cold rain

I supposedly can now tolerate heat

Long distance, or short distance, neither are a problem for me

Stage races or classics, all works for me

Peaking? Who needs to peak when you can ride everyone off your wheel all year long

I also need to make sure I'm extra nice, so that way I can beat the fisherman in the charisma game

It really is insane. Not even the best at stage races. Or climbs. Or flat one days. Guy is the best at EVERY race. Ugh.

 

[Oldermanish]

And then there is this article:
https://www.cyclingweekly.com/racing/a-defeated-peloton-reacts-to-tadej-pogacars-latest-exhibition-no-one-can-compete-with-him-i-have-never-seen-anything-like-this

Looks like folks are feeling a bit down Some fun quotes:

“Before I always used to ride races to win, but now to be perfectly honest I don’t see how it could be possible when you are racing against a rider like that.”

“So far in this race, if he wanted to, he could have had a chance to win in every stage. That’s pretty scary, but what can you do if someone is in their own league? He is one extra zone above us.”

“But the way they ride is that they want to win everything. I can understand that it can be a bit boring for the spectators, but we try everything to win as well. It’s just they don’t let us win anything.” (in reference to Toddy and Jo Jo)

looking at some of those quotes we now know some of the peloton are posters here.

 

[Oldermanish]

He already had a pre contract with UAE at that point. They just juiced him up early in his career so they could go 'look, he was always a huge talent'. Once up on a time he lost ITTs to Anthon Charmig and Jonas Gregaard.

I remember Kron saying in a podcast he used to beat Pogacar on the hills, but suddently Pogacar took a huge leap in level and began to destroy the youth ranks.

You make alot of leaps in your prejudicial analysis. While we know most Americans of a certain team and era all partook of party aids as juniors; Tadej had to be good enough to command attention coming from backwater Slovenia.
That said, the proliferation of former Eastern bloc athletes flooding the pro ranks in tennis, basketball, football, mma and cycling suggest either excellent grassroots coaching or superior pharmacological research. Following drug money out of the Mediterranean it does seem to follow a pattern that way.

 

[nayr497]

Two things...

1) Why does the UCI want races turned into a complete farce by ignoring obvious doping? Pogacar deters me from watching. If it's a mountain stage and he's in it, I check the results ahead of time. 99 times out of 100 (unless Vingegaard is in it), Pogacar wins by destroying the peloton, and I don't bother to watch the race. How is that beneficial to cycling? If there is some doubt who might win, it's much more compelling.

2) Although Pogacar isn't an in-your-face a-hole like Armstrong was, I find him a carbon copy of Lance in that he has a massive ego, and has to destroy everyone every race, no matter what. He was already way ahead on time in Catalunya after his first stage win. He could have easily ridden in the wheels on the next stage, then attacked in the last 100m to win it easily. But he's not content with that, he has to attack again from way far out, to prove again that he's stronger than the entire peloton put together. You'd think he'd want to play it cool to discourage talk of him doping, but he behaves exactly the opposite. It's bizarre behavior.

It is possibly more psycho to win from 80 km out while smiling and being Mr. Nice!

At least Lance was an unlikable villain.