Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

[Peyroteo94]

Then I have to ask you why you think he is an all time great if you're 100% sure he is doping?

I don't believe cycling (world tour riders) has one clean rider. Doping is part of the sport (not just this sport). Every all time great was a doper. Merckx, Indurain, Lance, Contador, Froome, Hinault. Do you believe Merckx was clean?

 

[GuntherL1]

Yes, he was very impressive in the way he kept destroying those a bit younger than him. But I guess since he started cycling later it wasn't a bad idea for him to race in the juniors at the age of 18.

And the 2000 age group was extremely weak, with almost no one worth mentioning apart from Arensman, who is from December 1999. But in 2018 he's competed in men's and u23 races, so he hasn't met Remco.

But no question as Remco went straight from junior races, skipped u23 altogether, won gold medal at the European ITT Championships, silver at the World Championships, won San Sebastian. That's a massive jump. Respect to QuickStep docs

No one worth mentioning from the 2000 generation? LoL. Carlos Rodriguez, Girmay, Van Wilder, Healy, Waerenskjold, Plapp, Ben Tulett, Vauquelin. Plenty of good riders.
He didn't 'jump' when he moved to Quickstep. He was already World, European and national champion RR and ITT. He won nearly everything as a junior? What jump did he make?

 

[The Clogger]

He won tour de l'avenir before joining UAE with the biggest gap to second place since Quintana and he was racing for Slovenia (almost raced alone). What are you talking about? Of course no one thought he would be this good but he was one of the most impressive young riders ever.

He already had a pre contract with UAE at that point. They just juiced him up early in his career so they could go 'look, he was always a huge talent'. Once up on a time he lost ITTs to Anthon Charmig and Jonas Gregaard.

I remember Kron saying in a podcast he used to beat Pogacar on the hills, but suddently Pogacar took a huge leap in level and began to destroy the youth ranks.

 

[GuntherL1]

I agree with most of what you wrote (by the way, don't get me started on Gilbert 2011).

I don't believe cycling (world tour riders) has one clean rider. Doping is part of the sport (not just this sport). Every all time great was a doper. Merckx, Indurain, Lance, Contador, Froome, Hinault. Do you believe Merckx was clean?

None of them were clean, but I do believe there are plenty of 'clean riders' in this era even at the very top. I don't distrust Evenepoel, Van der Poel, Pidcock or Pedersen. Not even Roglic.
However, when riders start crushing climbing records from the EPO era, I get suspicious.

 

[Ripper]

Wait, I thought that was Vingegaard, jeez you guys I can hardly keep up. The only consistency I can see is that whenever one of the bigshots has a big win or does something impressive he is immediately front and center in the clinic, unless his name is Van der Poel. Is it the consensus of the clinic that he alone is cleans? The son of a former top pro who himself was busted for doping? Vingo goes for a 40K escapade and the clinic is open for business, Pogi doubles it and everyone loses their ***. Van der Poel goes from 80K out including a 30-10-30 second 20 K long drag race with another clinic regular and it's crickets around here, he doesn't even budge off the second page. I don't get it, can anybody explain it to me. Like I just started watching cycling this year?

I have regularly commented on Van der Poel's extraterrestrial abilities. I had petered off on this because with his chronic back issues he had become fairly human. But that might be reversing since his WC win. Honestly though, my main take here is that the measuring stick keeps on being revamped. It had been Pout, Pisscock, and van der Monster that seemed ridonkulous. But then Jo Jo and Toddy showed up and made them look second rate

 

[Ripper]

Why Ayuso can't make the huge leap Pogacar made? I don't know. He was very good but what do you expected Pogacar to accomplish before joining UAE (before the age of 20)? Were you expecting a Tour de France winner at the age of 19 years old? Please tell me. Other thing I would like to ask you. Do you believe Remco would have a similar palmares if he joined UAE instead of quickstep?
Pogacar is an all time great, probably the best rider I ever seen but I'm not fool, I know he is a convicted doper.

To the bolded, I think Remco likely would have won the TdF by now if he had moved to UAE. Or perhaps completely imploded because of a clash of personalities. Who really knows with such hypotheticals. But QS' GT prep is pretty garbage

 

[Ripper]

Junior resulst are hugely convoluted by access to resources, even non clinical ones, so I wouldn't put an extreme amount of stock into that.

His performance as an adult is much more disturbing. In a supposed extremely specialized and professional peloton, he's having a laugh with basically everyone.

To the bolded, +1000. This is basically the biggest pis*take ... in an era where huge talents have focused on one major area, someone who is a generalist can beat them at their specialty. The regular comparison to yesteryear races where the degree of specialization was nowhere near the same simply lacks sound logic

 

[AmRacer]

Pogacar is an all time great, probably the best rider I ever seen but I'm not fool, I know he is a convicted doper.

And still he can't win MSR, having great difficulties with MvdP and Vingo.

 

[Ripper]

I agree with you but C'mon man, the final TT was a mountain TT in stage 20 (recovery plays an huge role). And one thing I can tell you, Pogacar always had a great engine, you can see Tour de l'Avenir. It was a matter of time and better conditions (equipment, wind tunnel, etc) to make him a very good time trialist. For me, the main flag is definetly how good he is in literally everything. He is toying with the field in strade bianche, he wins gt's, he can win reduced sprints, he is probably the best puncher in the world too on climbs with more than 1 km. He would be the first rider since Gilbert to make the treble in Ardennes of he didn't crash. He dropped a peak MVP (probably will end his career as the biggest winner in Ronde) in his favourite race. I agree with you when it is suspicious however you have to admit he was not a random cyclist when he was young, he was really talented.

To the first bolded section, I believe the first half of that TT was flat, and he was knocking it out of the park there as well, even compared to the TT specialists. Then on the climb, he nuked the folks who rode the flat portion easy so they could climb better.

To the second bolded section, 100% This is the part that makes me laugh the most. When someone is capable of what is supposedly not possible from a physiological overview, then you see trainers and such come out and try to explain it, but that is always a bit laughable and a fraught approach. Pharmstrong .... incredible efficiency. Contadupe .... incredible lactate clearing. I mean, no doubt these were strengths they possessed, but then much more eventually becomes apparent.

 

[Ripper]

And still he can't win MSR, having great difficulties with MvdP and Vingo.

Well, it is often considered the hardest to win because it is not hard/selective enough. He still torches some very fast/powerful sprinters

 

[Slavique Nuke]

No one worth mentioning from the 2000 generation? LoL. Carlos Rodriguez, Girmay, Van Wilder, Healy, Waerenskjold, Plapp, Ben Tulett, Vauquelin. Plenty of good riders.
He didn't 'jump' when he moved to Quickstep. He was already World, European and national champion RR and ITT. He won nearly everything as a junior? What jump did he make?

Do you understand how a YEAR works?
Carlos Rodriguez - 2001
Grimay - He was in Africa
Healy - September 2000
Plapp - December 2000
Tulett - 2001
Vauquelin - 2001

Something seems to be extremely wrong with you if you don't understand that there are junior races for under-18s, there are U23 races for under-23s, and there are men's races. And yes, Remco completely skipped the U23. He went from one year to the next from U18 world championship title to men's silver. Seems legit.

"Probably the most talented rider ever"? No. Only since he started riding for UAE. If you want to see talent in all age categories, check Evenepoel

Back to your flame trolling comment. Just for the sake of facts. Remco is the one who skipped categories, not Pogacar. Pogacar won one of the most important u18 stage races, won the most important u23 stage race.

There are so many things that could be written about Pogacar, especially after a week of 4 stage wins. But you come up with the idiocy.

 

[AmRacer]

Well, it is often considered the hardest to win because it is not hard/selective enough. He still torches some very fast/powerful sprinters

Poggi's attack should be enough to win, but Mathieu's acceleration to reel him in was from another dimension.

 

[Hugh Januss]

Poggi's attack should be enough to win, but Mathieu's acceleration to reel him in was from another dimension.

Maybe another Galaxy, VDP's acceleration to win MSR leaving behind Pogacar, Van Aert and Ganna last year was interdimensional.

 

[GuntherL1]

Do you understand how a YEAR works?
Carlos Rodriguez - 2001
Grimay - He was in Africa
Healy - September 2000
Plapp - December 2000
Tulett - 2001
Vauquelin - 2001

Something seems to be extremely wrong with you if you don't understand that there are junior races for under-18s, there are U23 races for under-23s, and there are men's races. And yes, Remco completely skipped the U23. He went from one year to the next from U18 world championship title to men's silver. Seems legit

These guys were part of the 2000 generation as first year juniors as juniors cover two years. Are we going to compare juniors only if they're born in the same month? Ffs.
Girmay wasn't 'in Africa'. He rode the world championships and actually beat Evenepoel in Aubel - Thimister - Stavelot.
Sure, Evenepoels silver seems legit as Tarling did something very similar by winning the European ITT, win the Chrono des Nations and finish 3rd in the World ITT. Do you have a problem with that too?

 

[GuntherL1]

Maybe another Galaxy, VDP's acceleration to win MSR leaving behind Pogacar, Van Aert and Ganna last year was interdimensional.

Which was actually a slower Poggio climb than this year.

 

[AmRacer]

Which was actually a slower Poggio climb than this year.

Yes, but the final acceleration was interdimensional. And that was what made difference.

 

[GuntherL1]

Back to your flame trolling comment. Just for the sake of facts. Remco is the one who skipped categories, not Pogacar. Pogacar won one of the most important u18 stage races, won the most important u23 stage race.

There are so many things that could be written about Pogacar, especially after a week of 4 stage wins. But you come up with the idiocy.

Logic is beyond you, isn't it? It's not about skipping categories. Evenepoel was the best junior in history. He continued to win as a senior. So are Tarling or Del Toro. It happens.
Pogacar became SUDDENLY nearly unbeatable in 2019 after signing for UAE. This seems to be understandable for other people on this forum. You're the exception.
If you're impressed by Pogacars victory in the tour de l'Avenir, look how Del Toro won it. He took every jersey as first year U23, won a stage, finished second three times. Now that's impressive.

 

[Slavique Nuke]

These guys were part of the 2000 generation as first year juniors as juniors cover two years. Are we going to compare juniors only if they're born in the same month? Ffs.
Girmay wasn't 'in Africa'. He rode the world championships and actually beat Evenepoel in Aubel - Thimister - Stavelot.
Sure, Evenepoels silver seems legit as Tarling did something very similar by winning the European ITT, win the Chrono des Nations and finish 3rd in the World ITT. Do you have a problem with that too?

A year counts for a lot at this age - being 17 or 18 is not the same thing.

Why would I have a problem with a Tarling's medal? I have no problem with Remco's medal either. But I have no illusions. Someone who finishes in the top places in the biggest races deserves a thread in the 'Clinic'.

Logic is beyond you, isn't it? It's not about skipping categories. Evenepoel was the best junior in history. He continued to win as a senior. So is Tarling or Del Toro. It happens.
Pogacar became SUDDENLY nearly unbeatable in 2019 after signing for UAE. This seems to be understandable for other people on this forum. You're the exception.
If you're impressed by Pogacars victory in the tour de l'Avenir, look how Del Toro won it. He took every jersey as first year U23, won a stage, finished second three times. Now that's impressive.

I'm afraid it's you that logic doesn't support. It was your claim that Remco has proved himself in ALL AGE CATEGORIES and Pogacar has not. I just contradicted it with hard facts. For me, this subject is now closed.

 

[Oldermanish]

It's the sudden change that bothers me. Pogacar was good, but not exceptional in his first four years. He signs for UAE and BOOM. Explain this to me.

You're not paying attention. He was good in 2019 as a youngster against the entire Tour of California. That's also the venue where Alaphillippe showed some serious skills.
That doesn't mean he didn't have help; it means he had the potential....and it's not a motorized bike.

Junior resulst are hugely convoluted by access to resources, even non clinical ones, so I wouldn't put an extreme amount of stock into that.

His performance as an adult is much more disturbing. In a supposed extremely specialized and professional peloton, he's having a laugh with basically everyone.

I think most folks would say the same about Remco. And Jonas.

 

[romanzat]

"Probably the most talented rider ever"? No. Only since he started riding for UAE. If you want to see talent in all age categories, check Evenepoel, Van der Poel, Pedersen and Pidcock.

Damn right. He had no No wins in 2017, no wins in 2018 before first visit to the UAE team laboratory.
After the visit, we can see the results: like win in Tour de l'Avenir. But he didn't win any stage. He had no kick. He never had been on podium of Junior World Championship, not RR, even less in ITT.

Here I have all his ITT results, you can see he is the specialist for Tour de France time trials. Which doesn't make any sense. https://file.si/6Lbl/pogacar-itt-rezultati.xlsx

We can see, he had talent in longer week long races and uphills, but he had no kick, he was not good in sprints, below average in time trials. But in the last few years he is superior in mountains, time trials, in monuments.

 

[Ripper]

And then there is this article:
https://www.cyclingweekly.com/racing/a-defeated-peloton-reacts-to-tadej-pogacars-latest-exhibition-no-one-can-compete-with-him-i-have-never-seen-anything-like-this

Looks like folks are feeling a bit down Some fun quotes:

“Before I always used to ride races to win, but now to be perfectly honest I don’t see how it could be possible when you are racing against a rider like that.”

“So far in this race, if he wanted to, he could have had a chance to win in every stage. That’s pretty scary, but what can you do if someone is in their own league? He is one extra zone above us.”

“But the way they ride is that they want to win everything. I can understand that it can be a bit boring for the spectators, but we try everything to win as well. It’s just they don’t let us win anything.” (in reference to Toddy and Jo Jo)

 

[Mex_17]

there was smoke around Pogacar during the 2021 Tour where other (anonymous) riders said his bike was making weird sounds. it wouldn't shock me if Visma decided to not be cheated the next year and came back with a motor as well.

i will say though, i couldn't see them being this brash and attracting attention like this if they had a motor. there's no reason to motor dope to win Catalunya by 4 minutes (or Galicia for Vinegegaard). i would think they would want to lay low and then unleash it at the Tour.

Mechanical doping is beyond ridiculous. It would be so obvious and easy to detect, and such a death sentence to the rider and team if caught. I guarantee no team is doing anything sketchy with regards to mechanics.

It's easier to dope Pogacar up to his gills, because apparently it's impossible to detect his doping, and his gains are 100 times better than if he had a gas engine in his bike.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

You're not paying attention. He was good in 2019 as a youngster against the entire Tour of California. That's also the venue where Alaphillippe showed some serious skills.
That doesn't mean he didn't have help; it means he had the potential....and it's not a motorized bike.

I think most folks would say the same about Remco. And Jonas.

Vingo specializes in stage races and does s**t in one day races. MVP is a one-day monster but can't climb cols. Teddy? He wins them all! Dominating small climbers in a mountainous stage-race, winning against big boys on cobbles, sprinting against the fastest guys in MSR , top3 in every possible kind of race.

 

[Netserk]

As fast as Pogi is, he is still easily within what blood doping can achieve. I'd imagine that if motor use was common, that wouldn't be the case.

 

[Samu Cuenca]

Mechanical doping is beyond ridiculous. It would be so obvious and easy to detect, and such a death sentence to the rider and team if caught. I guarantee no team is doing anything sketchy with regards to mechanics.

It's easier to dope Pogacar up to his gills, because apparently it's impossible to detect his doping, and his gains are 100 times better than if he had a gas engine in his bike.

If mechanical doping is happening/has happened, it's not been a substitute for doping a rider to the gills, but merely an add-on.